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Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST
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confusedquark wrote: »I've spent a lot of time researching Vitamin D and sunlight over the past few years - have also been working on a website that tells you roughly how much of it you do need (it's very complex, because the amount you need differs depending on your skin type, your age, your weight, what time of the year it is, what time of the day it is, what latitude you live at, how dense the ozone layer is on that day, how much of your total skin you have exposed, and for how long).
First things first, it's not just women who wear Hijab that are at risk of it. Vitamin D deficiency is extremely common - about 1 in 6 people are severely deficient in the winter months. The reason for this is that vitamin D has a half life of around 2 months in our bodies, and in Ireland our skins only really produce it from around April to September when exposed to sunlight (because the UV index needs to be 3 or more to produce any significant amount), so it's not just women who wear Hijab, but everybody needs to know about the risks of it.
The other thing which really puzzles me about those consultants is that they seem to be blissfully unaware that sunlight isn't the only source of vitamin D. Oily fish (like salmon, herring, mackerel) are very good sources of vitamin D and if you eat them twice a week, that pretty much gives you all you need (and we all should be doing that during the winter months). Furthermore, I was at a dermatology conference in Athlone last year and a consultant dermatologist strongly warned against looking to get vitamin D from the sun (and instead recommended using supplemented milk, cereals etc) because the flip side of the coin is - the more sun exposure your skin gets over time, the more the likelihood of developing skin cancer. She also pointed out that people in general are useless at properly applying sunscreen, and we should be moving away from it for sun protection and focusing more on wearing hats and more clothes in the sun to reduce the risk of sunburn and skin cancer. A recent study also showed that with all these cheap low fare sun holidays we've had in the past 10-15 years, skin cancer rates have shot up. I personally don't completely agree with her, because I do believe that there is a safe middle ground where you can get enough sun to get your vitamin d, but not so much so as to risk sun burn and skin cancer - the problem is that one size does not fit all with regards to sun exposure (due to the complexities mentioned about) and so it's hard to make recommendations for the public at large.
We all need to be mindful of our life choices that could affect our health - and indeed women who wear Hijab do need to be made aware of the need for sunlight (or alternatives). They can very easily manage it, as you only need to sit in the sun for around 1-2 hours a week during the summer with arms, legs and face exposed to the sun (and that can easily be done from the privacy of their own homes, either in the back garden, or through an open window or door) to get sufficient amounts. If that doesn't suit them, they can either look at oily fish, supplemented milk/cereals or tablet supplements. Beyond that, we all need to be aware that sunlight is useless for the winter months for producing vitamin D and we should be looking to our diet for it, and then we all need to be mindful of being careful in the sun to reduce the risk of skin cancer - something which Hijab will protect you from.
As I keep saying in this thread, it's important to look at things from all sides
I think also in countries like Ireland we need to take some sort of supplement. I take a vitamin D daily supplement and omega 369 oil. The reason being in Ireland we don't even get a lot of sunshine during the summer months, unlike mainland Europe and their hot summers.
I guess to make things less complicated just dont wear the hijab. It attracts unwanted attention anyway in Ireland as it's rare so i guess thats the opposite effect of what it's all about, and millions of muslim women don't wear it anyway. That would be my take on it.
This could be wrong .... but i have heard that muslim women when they become elderly start loosing their hair because of constantly wearing something on their heads? maybe the oxygen isn't getting at their hair? I dont know... to be honest.
At the end of the day, what I say or you say isn't going to change what muslim women wear or don't wear just like what muslim women say about what I wear isn't going to change or effect my choice either.0 -
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niamhstokes wrote: »I think also in countries like Ireland we need to take some sort of supplement. I take a vitamin D daily supplement and omega 369 oil. The reason being in Ireland we don't even get a lot of sunshine during the summer months, unlike mainland Europe and their hot summers.
Yeah, you can make a strong case for regular supplements (and definitely in the winter months). Although we do get enough sun in the summer to produce sufficient amounts - when you consider a light skinned person needs about 1 hour a week on average, even in Ireland we'd manage that much sunniamhstokes wrote: »I guess to make things less complicated just dont wear the hijab. It attracts unwanted attention anyway in Ireland as it's rare so i guess thats the opposite effect of what it's all about, and millions of muslim women don't wear it anyway. That would be my take on it.
It would also make things less complicated if we, as a society, could accept that there's nothing wrong with people looking different.niamhstokes wrote: »This could be wrong .... but i have heard that muslim women when they become elderly start loosing their hair because of constantly wearing something on their heads? maybe the oxygen isn't getting at their hair? I dont know... to be honest.
I can't say I've come across that, or indeed any balding Muslim elders. Oxygen enters your body through yours lungs, not skin or hair shafts. Furthermore, Muslim women only wear the headscarf when out and about - not usually at home. Probably an unsubstantiated myth.0 -
I am a Muslim woman living in Ireland and have read through some of the beginning of this thread (and not completed reading the whole thread right now as it is quite lengthy!) and have some comments to make, in particular to the comments relating to Muslim women's thoughts.No, it's not a "glass half empty/glass half full" situation; things are definitely skewed in favour of men. I have never seen a man covered from head to toe, with just a slit for his eyes. I have never heard of a country which forbids men from driving cars. I have never heard of a country where educating girls was considered immoral. You may say those are extremes of Islam, and indeed they are, but the fact is that Islam is such that it enables such discrimination against women. Nothing you have said that Islam is not misogynistic; it IS misogynistic to make men responsible for providing for woman, as it is saying that women are not capable of providing for themselves.
Islam does not enable discrimination against anyone. Controlling, un-educated people enable discrimination by whichever means they can. If a woman is free to have a career then the religion is not, “saying that women are not capable of providing for themselves”.You tried to argue that men are discriminated against in Islam because they are expected to look after women. This is hardly discrimination, in that the other side of the coin is that they also have power and control over them. Women are rendered dependent on them, and have little power to change their lives, should they wish.
Women are not dependent on men as they can have their lives as they wish. Career or no career, own income or not.niamhstokes wrote: »I think women in islam can be summed up like this:
A bird in a cage is fed, watered and protected, adored and loved; But is the bird free? No!
The bird is a woman in islam. Let her fly free. Life is not about wearing clothes to hide yourself from the world in case a demonized version of men stare at you. Be free , be happy and enjoy life. God loves to see his children play and be happy, he doesn't say cover yourself from head to toe and dissolve your identity into nothing in public
I am free, happy and enjoying life thanks to Allah. The covering of my body except for my face and hands is my choice of dress and 'identity'. I don't wear an invisible cloak or any cloak for that matter, so I'm very certain that I can be seen in public.
Men in Islam are expected to dress modestly, they have a list of criteria that their dress (and conduct) should meet, according to their body form.Even a headscarf and "dressing modestly" is not freedom, if men are not expected to wear headscarves and "dress modestly" in the same way.
Why would they need to have a very definite public identity?I have read your posts, including the bolded bits, and I cannot see that we are getting anywhere. To discuss your points to your satisfaction, I would have to accept the basic premises that you have repeated and repeated, but which I do not accept.
I am never going to agree that it is a woman's responsibility to cover herself to save men from their passions.
I am never going to agree that it is appropriate for a man to be as paternalistic/patronising to women as posters here seem to think is natural.
I would be interested to know why there are not Muslim women contributing to this thread and expressing their views. The only time I have seen women admitting to being Muslim on Boards was in Personal Issues, where they were warning an Irish woman who was wondering about marrying a Muslim of the restrictive nature of marriage in those circumstances.
To limit temptations is onlynone reason for covering the body for both men and women along with reasons such as generally not drawing attention to yourself, showing off, being moderate in appearance whereby as an individual, male or female, you are neither extravagant nor scruffy looking. Similar to school uniform where everyone is equal and students are not made to feel pressured into designer labels etc. but obviously outside school environment you can dress as you please. Similarly, in Islam, you can dress as you please however, clothes shouldn't be transparent, or tight fitting which show the shape of your body, 'flashy'/attention seeking, always extravagant/expensive or always 'scruffy'/torn. Men are to cover at all times from navel to knees. Women are to cover their body, except face, hands and feet.
I understand this is where the argument lies but it has to be realised that if a Muslim man was to be topless in front of people, clearly flexing muscles or the alike, then this would not be allowed either. A women being topless will always be more of a statement and attraction than a man being topless, although when it is a statement by a man, it would not be allowed either as mentioned.
The hair of a woman adds to her beauty and her neck and chest follow on from this. The covering of which has been instructed by Allah therefore is required by Muslim women. If anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, does not believe Allah or God to have said this, then they do not have to, there is no compulsion in Islam. If the passages which refer to this instruction are examined carefully, it is seen that the head covering is not specifically mentioned. The word 'Khimar' is used when Allah says, "...they should draw their khimar over their bosoms and not display their zeena (beauty)..." (24:60). A khimar is translated as a loose scarf which was worn in the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) time by women, which covered their head, neck and possibly shoulders only. This is therefore where the instruction appears and the khimar head covering was told to be extended to the bosom too. The passage does go on to mention the covering of the rest of the body but I focussed on head covering there as many people don't understand why women cover their heads and men don't.
I talk of topless men and women as that is the extreme end of not covering obviously and therefore, a line has been drawn, a boundary has to be made, there needs to be a rule set as it is clearer to follow. Islam being more of a preventative religion in my opinion, rather than curative, (cures however aplenty there are in Islam). Jewels for example are kept safe and hidden away from someone wanting to steal them, similarly, women are covered to be protected. Not just from men, from jealousy too, from extravagance too. If there were no boundaries, it would be harder to maintain a certain form of appropriate too. This extends to protecting men from women, men from jealousy and men from extravagance which are all applicable in Islam to them just as much as they have a dress code and code of conduct. If you refuse to accept that that is what Islam says, then that is unfortunate and a result of the misconceptions of the teachings of Islam that Muslims have and therefore they don’t always act upon.
Everyone has their own view on what is and isn't appropriate and that is why there are so many different people in the world. Muslims are a type of people and that is their view from their Islamic teachings.
As we see nowadays there is more and more vulgarity and obscenity in the media as there are no rules as such governing them, so there is nothing stopping people from acting or dressing 'inappropriately', (I use inverted commas as it is only my opinion (which I am using to explain the issue), that some people act and dress inappropriately in the media and in society for that matter and it is probably not their opinion).But of course they are brainwashed. Women who are brought up as equals to men, who turn around and decide to submit to men and cover themselves so that men don't have the effort to show them respect are brainwashed, and not capable of explaining their own oppression.
It is indeed pointless for you to continue because you have failed to understand that women are not weak creatures who need protection or that men are not weak creatures who are incapable of self-control. If what you portray is Islam, it doesn't have a very high opinion of either men or women...
I have been brought up as an equal to man as have my female friends and relatives who are Muslim and the covered way I dress is not my submission to men but to Allah. The only Being I want to and need to please. I have been shown nothing but respect by all men, Muslim or not, in places of study, work and of course at home. My father, brother, husband or any man for that matter has never told me to cover, neither did any female relative. It has been through my own studying of my religion which guided me to what my dress code should be.
Some women do face oppression in the name of Islam, that doesn't make it Islam. There is lots of good and bad in the world and that's one bad. I'm not stating anything ground-breaking there, its common knowledge. Headways are trying to be made in various ways to eliminate misconceptions in Islam by Muslims, things take time, culture can be powerful over religion. Different countries have different ways (again no ground-breaking news there), generalisation is pointless. There are many bad things in the world and good people try to do what they can to eradicate those things. Female oppression is one of them.Can you cite where in the Qur'an where it says that women have to cover themselves from head to toe in a sheet? And how do you know it's God who told them?.
It's a matter of faith, you either believe or don't believe that is the word of God. Just like other religions.Someone who misreads an exhortation about modesty to mean covering your hair with a wig or wearing old fashioned clothes IS, in my opinion, brainwashed.
Veils? Slaves? This is 2014.
I have not misread the verse of Qur'an as can be seen by my above comment on that specific verse.Oh, I know many Muslims who don't take such extreme accounts. My neighbour is a Muslim doctor, and I've never seen her wearing any kind of hijab. And when I taught in the UK there were many Muslim girls who wore the same clothes as everyone else.
My point is that just like Christianity, there are varied interpretations of Islam. Most Christians accept that the Bible has to be contextualised, and that we don't have to take everything literally. Muslims will admit that there are different interpretations, but insist that since the Qur'an is the direct word of God, it is not open to interpretation. Which is illogical. I just want to get them to admit that they DO interpret...
Parts of the Qur'an are open to interpretation other parts aren't. The different schools of thought within Islam agree to disagree on parts and people are free to choose what they feel is correct and act accordingly (as humans do) and Allah knows best what is in their hearts. Specifically on the issue of general dress code, there is a consensus between the schools of thought on this. Niqab (face covering) is not obligatory in Islam, some women choose to whilst not being forced to.Of course they have the RIGHT to wear hijab. I never said they didn't have the right. But I am offended by women allowing men to dictate to them what they THINK God told them to do. Men have told women that God wants them to cover up so that men will be able to control themselves in their presence, and women accept that nonsense, instead of telling men to exercise some self control.
If men are supposed to lower their gaze, and if that was considered enough, then clearly there would be no need for women to cover up in the way they do.
I never said women cover themselves up to pander to WOMEN'S weakness; I said they pander to MEN'S weakness.
I am offended that you think I am not capable of knowing and understanding the difference between what men could or have interpreted and what God has said. I understand why you may believe this to be the case but you are quite wrong, as thankfully, I have had an education in the West and have been able to use knowledge seeking skills to study my religion too. I would not blindly follow something, as our education in the West and Islam itself encourages us to question, ponder, research etc. a whole variety of things (this may not be the case in some cultures/countries especially where education is poor and power and control over the vulnerable is rife). In the specific verse there is next to no interpretation except for one word 'khimar', as previously mentioned. Therefore I choose to dress the way I do, covered.
All in all, I have been treated equally to my brother growing up, had the right to an education, to a career, to marrying whom I wish, for dressing as I wish. The same can be said for all of the females in my circle of friends and family some of whom dress like me and some who don't, all of whom are Muslim.
Men and women in Islam on the majority have the same roles and responsibilities and definitely have to conduct themselves in the same way, respectfully to each other and to the people in their society. If certain cultures portray this differently, it is not the fault of Islam.0 -
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