Water charges re: landlords responsibilities

Big Davey · 01-01-2015 7:45pm #1

Is there any update on the water issue ? Are the plans to put a judgement against the property of non paying tenants still planned ?

delahuntv · 01-01-2015 7:51pm

Big Davey wrote: »

Is there any update on the water issue ? Are the plans to put a judgement against the property of non paying tenants still planned ?

Any judgment would be against the tenant - to get judgement charge against a property you would need to prove the person the judgement applied to owns the property.

at the end of the day, just like all other utilities - the tenant registers and pays. If tenant does not register, then just like gas / electricity, the last tenant or landlord would be responsible.

a good professional landlord will ensure their tenants are registered fir utilities incl water - I cert don't want a tenant that does nit want to pay utility bills - sure they'd then think they would not have to pay me either!

Big Davey · 01-01-2015 7:58pm

delahuntv wrote: »

Any judgment would be against the tenant - to get judgement charge against a property you would need to prove the person the judgement applied to owns the property.

at the end of the day, just like all other utilities - the tenant registers and pays. If tenant does not register, then just like gas / electricity, the last tenant or landlord would be responsible.

a good professional landlord will ensure their tenants are registered fir utilities incl water - I cert don't want a tenant that does nit want to pay utility bills - sure they'd then think they would not have to pay me either!

Ok so I should ensure that my tenants have registered with Irish water and if they are refusing to pay I should I presume evict them ?
So irish water are using landlords as debt collection agents.......
I wonder will the PRTB consider it legal to evict a tenant who does not sign up for water charges ?
Should be interesting.

delahuntv · 01-01-2015 8:19pm

Big Davey wrote: »

Ok so I should ensure that my tenants have registered with Irish water and if they are refusing to pay I should I presume evict them ?
So irish water are using landlords as debt collection agents.......
I wonder will the PRTB consider it legal to evict a tenant who does not sign up for water charges ?
Should be interesting.

The problem with you and many ither "landlords" is you want to read into a very simple issue your own made up agenda.

it is DREADFULLY simple. Ensure your tenant registers and that is the end of your responsibility. If you don't check your tenant has registered, and they don't register, you pay. Same with electricity.

I only have 2 rental properties - I don't want the type of tenant that doesn't pay utility bills. My contract stipulates that ALL utility bills must be paid in fu before returnbof any deposit. Thankfully I've got goid tenants and both have registered already.

Big Davey · 01-01-2015 8:31pm

delahuntv wrote: »

The problem with you and many ither "landlords" is you want to read into a very simple issue your own made up agenda.

it is DREADFULLY simple. Ensure your tenant registers and that is the end of your responsibility. If you don't check your tenant has registered, and they don't register, you pay. Same with electricity.

I only have 2 rental properties - I don't want the type of tenant that doesn't pay utility bills. My contract stipulates that ALL utility bills must be paid in fu before returnbof any deposit. Thankfully I've got goid tenants and both have registered already.

It's only simple IF the tenants sign up. If the tenants don't sign up I am sure it will get far from simple.
What is my agenda ?
Meanwhile in the real world for those of us 'landlords' who's tenants appear to be opposing the water charges what do you recommend ?
My tenants are with me since before this whole water crap started they are aware that the utility bills are their responsibility but I don't like being used as an enforcer for irish water as they are now putting a gun to my head to get my tenants to sign up or I get a judgement against my properties.

delahuntv · 01-01-2015 8:43pm

Big Davey wrote: »

It's only simple IF the tenants sign up. If the tenants don't sign up I am sure it will get far from simple.
What is my agenda ?
Meanwhile in the real world for those of us 'landlords' who's tenants appear to be opposing the water charges what do you recommend ?
My tenants are with me since before this whole water crap started they are aware that the utility bills are their responsibility but I don't like being used as an enforcer for irish water as they are now putting a gun to my head to get my tenants to sign up or I get a judgement against my properties.

tough - as a landlord you have responsibilities. One of them is to ensure that your tenant signs up for utilities and by doing do absolves you from payment responsibility.

I'm also a commercial tenant in several locations - one of my leases is up this month and I'm not renewing it - my landlord (large property co) will want me to show that all commercial rates are paid up to date before accepting back the keys. That's normal. Likewise when I took the lease 5 years ago, they ensured gas, electricity and water (commercial) bills were all transferred to my company. Totally normal.

My opinion is that if tenants don't want to register, get new tenants.

MayBee · 01-01-2015 11:23pm

But how do you check that your tenant has signed up, if they don't sign up will irish water inform you, if a tenant doesn't sign up for electricity, you would be informed by way of notice of disconnection.

Victor · 01-01-2015 11:31pm

Big Davey wrote: »

I wonder will the PRTB consider it legal to evict a tenant who does not sign up for water charges ?

Most leases stipulate that the tenant pays any utilities. The tenant would be in breach of contract if they didn't.

murphaph · 01-01-2015 11:55pm

delahuntv wrote: »

tough - as a landlord you have responsibilities. One of them is to ensure that your tenant signs up for utilities and by doing do absolves you from payment responsibility.

I'm also a commercial tenant in several locations - one of my leases is up this month and I'm not renewing it - my landlord (large property co) will want me to show that all commercial rates are paid up to date before accepting back the keys. That's normal. Likewise when I took the lease 5 years ago, they ensured gas, electricity and water (commercial) bills were all transferred to my company. Totally normal.

My opinion is that if tenants don't want to register, get new tenants.

If you had decided not to pay your rates or utilities for months on end your deposit would never have covered the amounts due. A delinquent tenant can do massive financial damage.

Rates in particular can go unpaid for years before any enforcement action takes place. This is because the liability is lazily added as a charge on the property itself.

Gatling · 01-01-2015 11:56pm

Victor wrote: »

Most leases stipulate that the tenant pays any utilities. The tenant would be in breach of contract if they didn't.

Evictions for refusing to sign up for one in particular could be an interesting legal case ,

I wouldn't be surprised if a backlash came from sections of the various protest groups too

pwurple · 02-01-2015 9:13am

I asked the tenants for the Irish water account number. I phoned Irish water and verified that they had been set up.

I now keep records of the account number for water, same as I keep note of the MPRN for electricity etc.

This is the same as the way commercial property had been for decades. Council charges for water for those. So it's only a difference for domestic.

Big Davey · 02-01-2015 9:46am

delahuntv wrote: »

tough - as a landlord you have responsibilities. One of them is to ensure that your tenant signs up for utilities and by doing do absolves you from payment responsibility.

I'm also a commercial tenant in several locations - one of my leases is up this month and I'm not renewing it - my landlord (large property co) will want me to show that all commercial rates are paid up to date before accepting back the keys. That's normal. Likewise when I took the lease 5 years ago, they ensured gas, electricity and water (commercial) bills were all transferred to my company. Totally normal.

My opinion is that if tenants don't want to register, get new tenants.

Ok so if they don't sign up evict them that was what I said in the beginning.

Eldarion · 02-01-2015 11:18am

delahuntv wrote: »

My contract stipulates that ALL utility bills must be paid in fu before returnbof any deposit. Thankfully I've got goid tenants and both have registered already.

Does anyone know if this is in the white legally or is this in the grey? If the contract is between the tenant and the utility company what right does a third party have to get involved?

Would you retain a deposit if say the tenant financed a 3-piece suite but defaulted on the payments?

Direct pull from Threshold:

If you owe money for utility bills, such as gas or electricity, and the utility bill is in the landlord's name, they may withhold part or all of the deposit to cover these costs. Request a copy of the bill to ensure you are paying only what you owe.

The key point here is if it's in the Landlord's name. This leads me to infer then that if it is NOT in the Landlord's name then it has nothing to do with him/her and he/she would be leaving himself/herself wide open to a PRTB case for withholding.

The_Morrigan · 02-01-2015 12:14pm

I think with the talk of the landlord's being lumped with any arrears if tenants don't sign up is the problem.
Annual reviews of rent/leases and provision of proof that all bills are up to date at that time may become normal practise. May not be a bad idea for that to be both ways. Tenants prove they have no arrears and landlords prove the management fees/mortgage are the same. All it would take is a letter from the companies to state there are no arrears...you wouldn't have to provide actual figures.
When both are happy a new lease can be signed.

Alternatively this will take a challenge in the prtb and courts to get precedent about how landlords and tenants deal with non compliance.

Victor · 02-01-2015 12:14pm

Eldarion wrote: »

Does anyone know if this is in the white legally or is this in the grey? If the contract is between the tenant and the utility company what right does a third party have to get involved?

The right stems from the contract signed by the tenant with the landlord. Many contracts impose such responsibilities / liabilities, e.g. a construction contract may impose specific requirements for subcontractors and others to be paid and impose charges on the main contractor if they aren't. Some manufacturing or employment agency contracts may specify that staff must be paid - can you imagine employers like Ryanair accepting their agency staff not being paid promptly.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 02-01-2015 5:22pm

delahuntv wrote: »

The problem with you and many ither "landlords" is you want to read into a very simple issue your own made up agenda.

it is DREADFULLY simple. Ensure your tenant registers and that is the end of your responsibility. If you don't check your tenant has registered, and they don't register, you pay. Same with electricity.

I only have 2 rental properties - I don't want the type of tenant that doesn't pay utility bills. My contract stipulates that ALL utility bills must be paid in fu before returnbof any deposit. Thankfully I've got goid tenants and both have registered already.

Wow. Who p1ssed in your cornflakes today?

"DREADFULLY" simple. Really? There are a lot of people who are against paying for water who are happy to pay the rest of their bills. If your tenants are one of these, how are you going to enforce it? Evict them for breach of the terms of the lease? There are countless examples on boards alone where it has taken a landlord 18 months to evict a tenant for non payment of rent. You think it's going to be easier to evict a tenant who doesn't want to leave for not registering with Irish Water?

You are fortunate that you have good tenants. You may not be so lucky in the future.

Baby01032012 · 02-01-2015 6:09pm

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Wow. Who p1ssed in your cornflakes today?

"DREADFULLY" simple. Really? There are a lot of people who are against paying for water who are happy to pay the rest of their bills. If your tenants are one of these, how are you going to enforce it? Evict them for breach of the terms of the lease? There are countless examples on boards alone where it has taken a landlord 18 months to evict a tenant for non payment of rent. You think it's going to be easier to evict a tenant who doesn't want to leave for not registering with Irish Water?

You are fortunate that you have good tenants. You may not be so lucky in the future.

Above + 1

Why should landlord have a responsibility to a contract they are not a party to? I.e between tenant and utility provider. Utility company has no comeback on landlord if bill is not paid, same way as utility company can not disclose any information to landlord about the tenants account.

dasa29 · 03-01-2015 1:13am

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Above + 1

Why should landlord have a responsibility to a contract they are not a party to? I.e between tenant and utility provider. Utility company has no comeback on landlord if bill is not paid, same way as utility company can not disclose any information to landlord about the tenants account.

correct me if I am wrong here but when the tenant's move out does the contract for water charges revert to the landlord since it cannot be closed or moved to the new tenancy. If that is the case, than till there is a new tenant the landlord has to register the property as vacant and pay the bill including arrears.

Grandpa Hassan · 03-01-2015 2:24am

As a LL, the only way to ensure i am absolved of responsibility for the charge is to ensure that the tenant registers. Whether they then pay is not any concern of mine (as long as they are registered). Thus if they can't evidence that they have registered, I'll be looking to evict. Otherwise I'm at risk

Arbiter of Good Taste · 03-01-2015 4:15pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

As a LL, the only way to ensure i am absolved of responsibility for the charge is to ensure that the tenant registers. Whether they then pay is not any concern of mine (as long as they are registered). Thus if they can't evidence that they have registered, I'll be looking to evict. Otherwise I'm at risk

Yes. But unfortunately if a tenant doesn't want to leave, you could be left with a tenant accruing a couple of years of water charges until the eviction becomes final.

garhjw · 03-01-2015 7:13pm

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Yes. But unfortunately if a tenant doesn't want to leave, you could be left with a tenant accruing a couple of years of water charges until the eviction becomes final.

This is the problem. I would hope in the vast majority of cases that a tenant will be a normal person and register the utility in their name. My concern is the hassle to deal with a loser tenant and incompetent semi state workers. There will be the hassle and time it takes on tops of potential costs if the landlord is actually held liable...

Big Davey · 03-01-2015 8:21pm

garhjw wrote: »

This is the problem. I would hope in the vast majority of cases that a tenant will be a normal person and register the utility in their name. My concern is the hassle to deal with a loser tenant and incompetent semi state workers. There will be the hassle and time it takes on tops of potential costs if the landlord is actually held liable...

I have already had one delinquent tenant last year who just stopped paying the rent in one of my properties in an attempt to get a council house as they spent and gambled the social welfare money and then declared themselves homeless !

I now have a PRTB judgement and am awaiting a court date while many thousands of euro out of pocket as the scumbags semi trashed the house and bailed.

The social welfare informed me it is none of my business what the tenant spent the money( means tested job seekers) on and that as soon as they become eligible for rent allowance again they will get it and the new landlord will not be informed of the PRTB case, the damage, the non payment of rent of the rent allowance and the top up that was due.

After putting serious pressure on the welfare I got the rent allowance part paid to me but between the top up of rent allowance and the DISGUSTING state the house was left in broken windows, damaged furniture, a fire in one of the rooms, carpets, beds everything destroyed a large amount of rubbish bags with nappies, broken bottles, rotten food etc I am still many thousand of euros out of pocket and facing a court case.

What is sad is I was never anything but a gentleman to these people. Now the government or whoever want me to pressurise all my tenants to pay for water OR they will put a judgement on my properties !

There is nothing fair about the way things are run in this country the harder you try to make something of yourself the more you are kicked in the boxxix I don't blame the people on the dole or the guys that go to the pub and bookies every day and could not be bothered to get a job and the girls who go out to get pregnant and then go on the housing list and are out locked drunk every (Mickey money) night.

Any person who came here with the sole intention of getting as much as they can from this country I don't blame them.

Many people who I know who have lost homes and businesses etc and then find it hard to sign on as they have no stamps etc have said to me they would change it all if they could and just sponge off the state from the beginning go from one course to the next, go on the housing list or get rent allowance, buy and sell a few bits on adverts to make a few extra quid, get a really handy little job somewhere and let the (Family income support) make up the rest etc etc etc

In my opinion the system is wrong, personally I am a worker and I always was I have bought another rental recently and no matter what happens I won't be held back from making something of myself BUT I am very pissed off at being put in a situation where I now have to pressurise tenants into something that they do not seem to want to do just to stop this leeching government from putting a judgement against what I have worked very hard to get.

Landlords often risk their own money,give people somewhere to live, create employment, pay taxes but still it seems like everyone is out to get the (big bad rich landlord)

Rant over :-)

delthedriver · 03-01-2015 11:32pm

If the tenant is not willing to accept responsibility for water charges?

I would suggest getting them to put same in writing that they are not willing to pay for this utility and an instruction from them to have their supply terminated.

Bet they have no problem paying for SKY TV and Netflix !!!

Big Davey · 06-01-2015 7:42pm

I spoke to Irish Water today and Landlords will not be charged for water ! From April if the Tenant has not registered IW will accept the Tenants details from the Landlord and pass on the bill. There will be no liability for the Landlord whatsoever.

Grandpa Hassan · 06-01-2015 7:47pm

Big Davey wrote: »

I spoke to Irish Water today and Landlords will not be charged for water ! From April if the Tenant has not registered IW will accept the Tenants details from the Landlord and pass on the bill. There will be no liability for the Landlord whatsoever.

We seem to be going round in circles. This is what they said months ago, unless I am mistaken, before backtracking. I am not sure anyone in IW actually knows what is going on re landlords

Gatling · 06-01-2015 8:01pm

But are landlords legally allowed to pass tenants details on to a 3rd party

Grolschevik · 06-01-2015 8:30pm

Gatling wrote: »

But are landlords legally allowed to pass tenants details on to a 3rd party

Sure it'd only be their name and address, not sensitive personal info. And landlords will have already passed this info to a third party, in the form of of the PRTB.

And, don't quote me on this, but I think I read somewhere that Irish Water is exempt from some of the data protection legislation. Open to correction on the latter point...

ballyharpat · 06-01-2015 9:54pm

BUt what happens in the case of Electric? Any time I have rented from, or rented to tenants, it has been the obligation of the tenant to transfer over the electric......I have never come across someone that would refuse it, has anyone else? If they do not transfer, then either there is a shut off and the landlord has to pay to reconnect, or the landlord foots the bill for all the electric? I always ring ESB to make sure it has been transferred.

garhjw · 06-01-2015 10:01pm

Gatling wrote: »

But are landlords legally allowed to pass tenants details on to a 3rd party

I checked this with the ODPC and they confirmed to me it is ok to pass on names and addresses of tenants to IW but not PPS (this was when PPS was a requirement)

Water charges re: landlords responsibilities

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