Martial Arts Respect?

paulol · 29-12-2014 12:07pm #1

Just a quick question guys.

Do you think that modern martial arts training is lacking the respect and honour that the older kind of training built themselves on?

Peetrik · 29-12-2014 1:17pm

paulol wrote: »

Just a quick question guys.

Do you think that modern martial arts training is lacking the respect and honour that the older kind of training built themselves on?

Depends how you look at it really. Some peoples version of 'honor and respect' involves a lot of bowing, standing in rows and having a neatly pressed outfit etc.

I have a completely unresearched theory that most MA styles initially earn respect by being effective, and that respect is similar to the respect you would show any large man who looks like he can handle himself. Then somehow over time it gets transformed into... well... something else lets say to save on ruffled feathers.

Most effective styles have sparring and ideally competition, from my experience there is nothing but respect between competitors of effective martial arts. Despite the new trend of 'hyping up fights' with McGregor style publicity, it's hard not to respect someone after you both just spent 20 minutes thumping the head off each other.

Niall Keane · 29-12-2014 1:46pm

I question the premise?

Were old styles "built" on respect and honor?

Many Chinese martial arts were based on well ”martial” activities, use of spear, bow, swords etc. Often it was used to train villagers to protect themselves from bandits or for bandits to attack villagers in relatively lawless areas.

When we look to Sun Tzu's “Art of War”,in chapter 1, he states: “Warfare is the Way (Dao) of deception”.

Martial arts are really all about artful deception, “leading the opponent”, etc. Should we be so unscrupulous as to let this trait bleed into our personal lives, could we be considered respectful and honorable? Or would the term “manipulative psychopath” be more appropriate?

Certainly we become more aware of deception and true motives, it can lend an edge to many endeavors. What is it they say? 70% of combat soldiers shoot to miss, of the remainder half 15% are sociopaths and return to the world as violent criminals, the other 15% suffer the “hero syndrome”, they can kill on the field, but return to live normal and caring lives. Something tells me the less severe world of martial arts is vaguely similar, about 70% never spar or compete, of those who do, half are head-the-balls, and the other half real decent fellows. ;-)

If anything martial arts teach us about the worst traits of human interaction – deception and violence, and we immerse ourselves in the study of such and the practical experience of such until we recognize the art and become artists in its delivery.

There are thus at least two types of “respect” earned from practice then, one is a healthy respect for violence, a sort of state of “mutually assured destruction”, we know we can deliver bombs but we also are aware that we will surely receive a few, should things turn physical outside of the Dojo which is a kind of respect I guess? Or at least a greater “patience” with fools.
Secondly we understand the sacrifice in training and the opportunity a trained opponent has given us in allowing us to test and improve our skills. We are aware of the real risks, that both we and our opponents are taking, as such we tend to respect our opponent, at times, from personal experience, even becoming firm friends after bouts.

As for the cultists seeking masters and seniors to bow to, so one day others will bow to them.... well, there's an old expression:

“a warrior bows to no man and expects no man to bow to him, a slave bows to those he feels are better and expects those he believes to be less to bow to him”.

I see no dignity nor respect in such subservient rituals!

paulol · 29-12-2014 1:50pm

Peetrik wrote: »

Depends how you look at it really. Some peoples version of 'honor and respect' involves a lot of bowing, standing in rows and having a neatly pressed outfit etc.

Hmmm I know where you are taking that idea from Peetrik. I'll wait to give my view on that below.

Peetrik wrote: »

Then somehow over time it gets transformed into... well... something else lets say to save on ruffled feathers.

Oh don't censor yourself Peetrik

Peetrik wrote: »

Most effective styles have sparring and ideally competition, from my experience there is nothing but respect between competitors of effective martial arts.

Indeed a well trained fighter will never have a grubby attitude.

Peetrik wrote: »

I have a completely unresearched theory that most MA styles initially earn respect by being effective, and that respect is similar to the respect you would show any large man who looks like he can handle himself.

Peetrik wrote: »

Despite the new trend of 'hyping up fights' with McGregor style publicity, it's hard not to respect someone after you both just spent 20 minutes thumping the head off each other.

That is respecting people for their fighting skills alone. As a society we do respect (or elevate) people who have skills that we deem to be admirable. Which in terms of the "DO" of martial arts training is totally missing the point in my opinion.

Once you start to limit the amount of things that allow you to bestow your respect upon another human then you run the risk of coming across as brash, arrogant and unnecessarily aggressive.

The type of respect that is usually associated with older classical martial arts is also something I don't totally agree with. Where there is more respect given to senior grades just because they are senior grades. Just because a person has a higher grade does not make them a better person. Martial Arts has a vast array of skills to be passed onto to the interested student (and by student I mean everyone who trains in the art, student or instructor).

This is how I see the chain of respect that should be cultivated through martial arts training.

1. Respect everyone you meet. No matter who they are, at first meeting a person you do not have a right to pass judgement on them without knowing some more about their personal journey.

2. Respect anyone who is willing to share their experience.

3. Respect anyone who is willing to accept that they need to change and learn new and different ways to do things. (this is the most important reason to respect someone)

4. Respect anyone who is willing to step into a sparring session no matter the stage or result.

But if someone is a dope then they are a dope and you cannot do anything about that.

My biggest gripe is about people in a lot of sport martial arts today seem to react like they have just scored a goal in soccer when they put someone down or the ref stops a fight etc. Some people still have the respect or the "DO". But I just wonder has it been forgotten in many gyms and training halls and replaced with glory hunting?

(Not saying this about you Peetrik because I cannot do so, as I don't know you and am just making a point.)

Niall Keane · 29-12-2014 2:30pm

Hmmm... what do we mean by "respect" first?

1. respect him cause he's a feckin genius at x,y,z....

or

2. I'm human, he's human, I can empathize, so I'll be polite and afford respect to him.

the later is my default position with everyone until they cross a line with me, the former has to be earned in my eyes.

2. is a kind of democratic respect, an automatic entitlement, 1. is an elevated position based on what I would perceive as accomplishment.

The problem with many martial arts "masters" Sifus" "gurus" etc. is that they expect 1. and the constant and ridiculous fanfare acknowledging such without ever having earned the right to it.

Because I'm involved with international Wushu (Sanda) and also with other aspects of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts at international level, I constantly get these emails from Chinese schools offering to "let" me and my "school" join UNDER them etc. I have no small amount of international achievement as athlete or coach, and these village idiots keep expecting that people like myself "want" to be part of their "awesome" circus as they are ethnic Chinese and wear Pajamas all day long. Of course they want accomplished Sanda fighters and coaches as part of their establishment and lend it credibility as they have none themselves, they have never achieved anything, or more than likely have never even put themselves in a position to achieve anything, as they are too afraid of being beaten and "losing face", idiot's keeping their Zero loss record by forgoing competition and the unique martial experience it brings. And these are the guys who talk the most about respect and honor, every sentence dripping with such words, but where is the respect and honor when those hopelessly inept "dancers" actually have the cheek to ask accomplished martial artists to kowtow to them because of the colour of their skin and the pajamas they wear? Yet all their students can be seen bowing, well saluting in CMA and dancing in uniforms / pajamas all day long!

I have to say for me anyway, bar exceptions like Judo, BJJ, Shuai Jiao which have Gi's really rather than uniforms, when I see Uniforms or belts or any "contrived" badges of honour my expectation of the skill / gung fu of a school plummets and they really have to work extra hard to keep my attention.

Niall Keane · 29-12-2014 3:15pm

just another point, we all know those who teach kids etc. and have uniforms in their schools, and also teach real martial arts and whose students actually fight in full contact formats. That's totally understandable and not an issue at all.

Kids and their parents are not really paying so little Joe and Mary can take out assassins, but rather for the Kung Fu "experience", in its childish "disney" cartoon projection. And this includes uniforms and belts and pats on the back and dance routines the parents can enjoy, feel proud of and validate their parenting. I suspect a lot of the fanfare is for the parents not the kids?

And yes it pays the bills, its not all child minding, I'm sure some young stars can actually learn turn up from time to time, even stay a few years and learn something, a few even become adult athletes.

When grown men on the other hand don the pajamas, contort their faces and shout alot in poorly pronounced foreign terms as they punch the air, or even sometimes the air right beside their training partners faces who then roll over howling in keeping with the best soccer theatrics, I have to ask where is the "self"-respect?
When they line up and bow to each other, before executing dangling straight arm attack to space above opponents shoulder to allow said opponent execute the five step exploding heart technique, and finish with knee to air space in front of balls area, where are these guys at that moment? in their own personal Shaw Brothers flick?
When a grown man with a wife and kids performs a dance on front of two other men also in pajamas to receive a colourful belt that only goes with that other colourful belt he got last month, what the fcuk is he thinking? How has respect or honor got anything to do with such camp undertakings?:D

Should such martial-masturbation be respected?

paulol · 29-12-2014 3:42pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

Were old styles "built" on respect and honor?

Niall Keane wrote: »

Many Chinese martial arts were based on well ”martial” activities, use of spear, bow, swords etc. Often it was used to train villagers to protect themselves from bandits or for bandits to attack villagers in relatively lawless areas.

The latter part of the 1800's in Japan saw a move more towards The Way, DO or Dao/Tao aspect of martial arts training. They turned their back on what they saw as the savagery of their past under the samurai era. So the fighting arts instead worked on developing the mind and body. Retaining the idea of chivalry and honour as part of how they interacted with each other within the training environment.

With the arrival of advanced artillery to the east from western trading and invasion, the need to defend oneself with unarmed methods became less important. So "The Way" became how people accepted the old barbaric fighting traditions.

Japan's expansion across the east meant that they crushed the indigenous martial arts of China and more so Korea as much as possible. Only allowing Japanese arts to be practiced and so the idea of Bushido was enforced. For some reason the arts of China managed to survive this period and I can only guess it was down to sheer numbers of chinese people and the remoteness and vastness of the country.

But never the less, this idea of chivalry is something that remained in the fledgling martial arts schools that came out of the early 1900's and mid 1950's in Japan and Korea and so were what the USA armed forces came into contact with when they opened bases there after WWII and the Korean War.

That it brought back the idea of the old code of european Christian Knights would have been something that sparked interest in the minds of the people who brought the martial arts back to the west and spread them to a wider audience. Having trained in Chinese martial arts also, this idea is not a huge part of their training ideal.

Niall Keane wrote: »

When we look to Sun Tzu's “Art of War”,in chapter 1, he states: “Warfare is the Way (Dao) of deception”.

Martial arts are really all about artful deception, “leading the opponent”, etc. Should we be so unscrupulous as to let this trait bleed into our personal lives, could we be considered respectful and honorable? Or would the term “manipulative psychopath” be more appropriate?

All combat requires some kind of deception or feint. But as a respectful human being we should be prepared to back off when the opponent cannot defend themselves. Or respect them in their compromised state.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Certainly we become more aware of deception and true motives, it can lend an edge to many endeavors. What is it they say? 70% of combat soldiers shoot to miss, of the remainder half 15% are sociopaths and return to the world as violent criminals, the other 15% suffer the “hero syndrome”, they can kill on the field, but return to live normal and caring lives. Something tells me the less severe world of martial arts is vaguely similar, about 70% never spar or compete, of those who do, half are head-the-balls, and the other half real decent fellows. ;-)

I read The Wisdom Of Psychopaths by Kevin Dutton

It certainly was an interesting view on that subject

Niall Keane wrote: »

If anything martial arts teach us about the worst traits of human interaction – deception and violence, and we immerse ourselves in the study of such and the practical experience of such until we recognize the art and become artists in its delivery.

Following "The Way" Niall

Niall Keane wrote: »

There are thus at least two types of “respect” earned from practice then, one is a healthy respect for violence, a sort of state of “mutually assured destruction”, we know we can deliver bombs but we also are aware that we will surely receive a few, should things turn physical outside of the Dojo which is a kind of respect I guess? Or at least a greater “patience” with fools.

Secondly we understand the sacrifice in training and the opportunity a trained opponent has given us in allowing us to test and improve our skills. We are aware of the real risks, that both we and our opponents are taking, as such we tend to respect our opponent, at times, from personal experience, even becoming firm friends after bouts.

That's good and healthy as part of the martial arts experience.

Niall Keane wrote: »

As for the cultists seeking masters and seniors to bow to, so one day others will bow to them.... well, there's an old expression:

“a warrior bows to no man and expects no man to bow to him, a slave bows to those he feels are better and expects those he believes to be less to bow to him”.

I see no dignity nor respect in such subservient rituals!

There are people who seek to be lead and will follow anyone who decides to take up that mantle. By the way where did that expression come from Niall? I have googled it and cannot find reference for it?

paulol · 29-12-2014 3:58pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

Hmmm... what do we mean by "respect" first?

1. respect him cause he's a feckin genius at x,y,z....

or

2. I'm human, he's human, I can empathize, so I'll be polite and afford respect to him.

the later is my default position with everyone until they cross a line with me, the former has to be earned in my eyes.

2. is a kind of democratic respect, an automatic entitlement, 1. is an elevated position based on what I would perceive as accomplishment.

Indeed this is how I see it also

Niall Keane wrote: »

The problem with many martial arts "masters" Sifus" "gurus" etc. is that they expect 1. and the constant and ridiculous fanfare acknowledging such without ever having earned the right to it.

Because I'm involved with international Wushu (Sanda) and also with other aspects of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts at international level, I constantly get these emails from Chinese schools offering to "let" me and my "school" join UNDER them etc. I have no small amount of international achievement as athlete or coach, and these village idiots keep expecting that people like myself "want" to be part of their "awesome" circus as they are ethnic Chinese and wear Pajamas all day long. Of course they want accomplished Sanda fighters and coaches as part of their establishment and lend it credibility as they have none themselves, they have never achieved anything, or more than likely have never even put themselves in a position to achieve anything, as they are too afraid of being beaten and "losing face", idiot's keeping their Zero loss record by forgoing competition and the unique martial experience it brings. And these are the guys who talk the most about respect and honor, every sentence dripping with such words, but where is the respect and honor when those hopelessly inept "dancers" actually have the cheek to ask accomplished martial artists to kowtow to them because of the colour of their skin and the pajamas they wear? Yet all their students can be seen bowing, well saluting in CMA and dancing in uniforms / pajamas all day long!

I too get masters and grand masters and great grand masters contact me all through the year on facebook seeking me to join my club with them. I have no one master now and am happy to learn from many. The members of our martial arts studio are not ordered to bow any different to me than to anyone else in the class. We bow because that is part of the tradition we come from within TKD. I have heard that there should be a different bow angle depending on who we are bowing towards. But this is just too much bs for me to believe

Niall Keane wrote: »

I have to say for me anyway, bar exceptions like Judo, BJJ, Shuai Jiao which have Gi's really rather than uniforms, when I see Uniforms or belts or any "contrived" badges of honour my expectation of the skill / gung fu of a school plummets and they really have to work extra hard to keep my attention.

Uniforms (gi's, doboks etc) evolved from wearing training clothes that were more applicable to training than regular clothes. Although originally martial arts training was practiced in the yard wearing the clothes on your back. To have to constantly repair clothing due to ripping can be a pain in the bum and will soon leave your good shirt only fit for a rag.

There are a lot of rubbish ideas involved in the martial arts uniform and I as you mention BJJ Gi's i do find the big patches on them to be a little bit vulgar. But then that is their own paradigm and not for me to hold any grudge about

paulol · 29-12-2014 4:31pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

just another point, we all know those who teach kids etc. and have uniforms in their schools, and also teach real martial arts and whose students actually fight in full contact formats. That's totally understandable and not an issue at all.

Is full contact format the only valid form of combat?

Niall Keane wrote: »

Kids and their parents are not really paying so little Joe and Mary can take out assassins, but rather for the Kung Fu "experience", in its childish "disney" cartoon projection. And this includes uniforms and belts and pats on the back and dance routines the parents can enjoy, feel proud of and validate their parenting. I suspect a lot of the fanfare is for the parents not the kids?

And yes it pays the bills, its not all child minding, I'm sure some young stars can actually learn turn up from time to time, even stay a few years and learn something, a few even become adult athletes.

As someone who trains kids and young people, parents have told me that the have chosen to put their child into our classes to help them get physically active with the reinforcement of good moral values (like the ideas of chivalry) and community spirit. The threat of violence from bullies etc is secondary and finally the sporting aspect is furthest from their mind. When we see someone with talent it can take a while to get parents to say yes to allowing that child to compete.

There is nothing wrong with a parent looking for activities to get their child involved in. Especially ones which they believe will instill the values they are trying to teach at home also. Unfortunately it seems that not all activities (never mind the martial arts ones) see this as part of the service they are providing. Or if they do, then they do not actually provide it in any real way other than lip-service.

Niall Keane wrote: »

When grown men on the other hand don the pajamas, contort their faces and shout alot in poorly pronounced foreign terms as they punch the air, or even sometimes the air right beside their training partners faces who then roll over howling in keeping with the best soccer theatrics, I have to ask where is the "self"-respect?

When they line up and bow to each other, before executing dangling straight arm attack to space above opponents shoulder to allow said opponent execute the five step exploding heart technique, and finish with knee to air space in front of balls area, where are these guys at that moment? in their own personal Shaw Brothers flick?

Once they are happy to do so and not hurting themselves or anyone else then I would really let them off. We must respect their wishes and choices. I don't get the buzz in following team sports especially the weirdness involved in english soccer teams? But I don't ridicule the people who do.

Although I do find the activities you have mentioned a bit silly also, and I am part of that world. But don't do it that way.

Niall Keane wrote: »

When a grown man with a wife and kids performs a dance on front of two other men also in pajamas to receive a colourful belt that only goes with that other colourful belt he got last month, what the fcuk is he thinking? How has respect or honor got anything to do with such camp undertakings?:D

Ooooo suits you sir

To be honest, for some people the challenge of getting up the mental and physical fitness involved in such belt tests can be a really good release for people. Belts are a part of the Japanese lineage classical martial arts and that is something that will not change. Should they be more linked in all the styles to physical ability and accomplishments? Most definitely! But also because we have the DO part of the arts, there are many layers to the cake and not just one flavour.

We need to respect the choices people make also.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Should such martial-masturbation be respected?

That is an interesting idea Niall

Are you going to start a world championships? Will there be national sections?

p.

Peetrik · 29-12-2014 4:56pm

paulol wrote: »

Is full contact format the only valid form of combat?

Yes. Anything else is just training for combat. There is a difference.

paulol wrote: »

To be honest, for some people the challenge of getting up the mental and physical fitness involved in such belt tests can be a really good release for people.

Ah, still not a fan of belts and ranks tbh. I've absolutely no problem with people training just for the fun/fitness aspect, knock yourself out, have a ball with it. But awarding a dabbler ranks that imply other people should bow to them is a bit much. You end up with this sort of situation as they progress through their own rankings...

http://youtu.be/yN4wsMDNpWw

paulol · 29-12-2014 5:24pm

Peetrik wrote: »

Yes. Anything else is just training for combat. There is a difference.

Ah, still not a fan of belts and ranks tbh. I've absolutely no problem with people training just for the fun/fitness aspect, knock yourself out, have a ball with it. But awarding a dabbler ranks that imply other people should bow to them is a bit much. You end up with this sort of situation as they progress through their own rankings...

You know, I'll be honest and tell you that I was going to reply to the idea you are talking about here Peetrik. But then I realised that we have really missed the point in my original post?

I was asking about if respect has been lost in modern martial arts training? What has come back so far is personal definition of who and what people will respect?

The question was outside styles, practices or preferences. It is about respecting the other person you are training with or involved in competition with more to the point. I'm sorry for not making that clearer. But I didn't think I had to?

Hopefully I can get your views on this (and I think both yourself and Niall have touched on your thoughts on that) and add how you show that respect in training and in a ring environment?

The video you posted is what Korean and Japanese sparring was prior to the invention of sparring equipment. These guys are part of the Chungdokwan Korean Karate (TKD) association who remained under GM Song Duk Song in the USA. It is unfortunate for them to think that this is a practical demonstration of martial arts. But then most people still thought the world was flat long after it was proved otherwise

These guys would require another thread I would think to discuss the value or not in this training. I would guess that they are told this is good training and a good test of their skills. But I would prefer for them to be told that this is an old way of training and lets do it for the craic lads

Peetrik · 29-12-2014 5:43pm

paulol wrote: »

But then I realised that we have really missed the point in my original post?

Your original question was...

"Do you think that modern martial arts training is lacking the respect and honour that the older kind of training built themselves on?"

In my opinion it's not.
I reckon that firstly, the modern version of 'respect/honor', what is expected from TMAs (bowing, pj's etc) was never part of the original building blocks for it to be lacking now.

Secondly, the word "lacking" suggests deficient, absent, inferior. If anything modern combat sport have stripped away an unnecessary, manufactured aspect that has no real part in western society. I'm Irish, if I want to 'honor' my coach I buy him a pint.

Niall Keane · 30-12-2014 1:39pm

paulol wrote: »

By the way where did that expression come from Niall? I have googled it and cannot find reference for it?

Its a translation of an old Nei Jia Gung Fu expression. Much traditional Gung Fu was anti-authoritarian, probably due to dynasties such as the Ching and Yuan etc. being seen as foreign occupiers.
In many respects the Jianghu world is similar to political anarchism - mutual aid and rejection of authority. That side of the Chinese character, the side that glorifies the "outlaws of the marsh" is very similar to our own Irish anti-colonial, anti-landlord, anti-authority spirit.
I noted that you spoke of chivalry and early Christian Knights and similar Japanese codes of Bushido etc. well in fact China too had their Knight Errants. There is quite a good book, now out of print written in English on the subject by James J. Y. Liu (The Chinese Knight-Errant). He lists their ideals thus:

Altruism
Justice
Individual Freedom
Personal Loyalty
Courage
Truthfulness and mutual faith
Honour and fame
Generosity and contempt for wealth

The Poet Li Po (Li Bai) of the Tang dynasty would be a famous example. He has since been elevated to being a “sword immortal” in Daoist religious belief.

Often reference to infamous or heroic deeds or actions are referred to in Gung Fu Style names (by style I mean the names for individual applications in forms – weapon and hand). So for example in the Dao (sabre) form I practice - “Xuan Xuan Dao” (“Dark, Mysterious Sabre”, XuanXuan is also a Daoist reference to Chang San-Feng, the founder of Nei Jia Chuan (internal gung fu)) there exists a style called “Taking off the boots while drunk” and another called “Embracing the Moon”

Taking off the boots while drunk refers to an episode of Li Po's life where the Emperor had invited him to court and held a feast in his honour. Arriving he was smashed drunk as usual, and through his feet onto the table, soles facing the chief Eunuch (the second most powerful man in the Empire) and demanded he take his boots off. Those of you familiar with Chinese culture will recognise the great insult of displaying the soles of one's boots to anyone, let alone throwing them on the table which I imagine is universally unaccepted, and then to demand the emperor's top man take them off was outrageous. The Eunuch protested but the Emperor was refreshed by Li Po's irreverent attitude and told him to take them off, for which Li Po earned the eternal hatred of the Eunuch.

In application the move is used to kick away an opponent and twist and withdraw a sabre that has been thrust through his mid-section, thus eviscerating him, displaying of course total disregard for him.

The “Embrace the Moon” has two meanings, the sabre is withdrawn and embraced / twisting in towards our “moon” an old Daoist symbol for the Dantien (approx navel area), the weapon is twisted so the blade faces up and our left hand makes a clockwise circle above the blade, as we “fall” into the technique. The application is used to divert a spear thrust aimed at our mid-section, the twisting blade “drags” the spear shaft, and simultaneously the hand comes from above circularly to seize the spear shaft, then we step forward to thrust as we pull aside the spear making the opponent fall into the thrusting blade.
But the story though also involves Li Po's death, on a boat on the Great River, he is drunk again, and falls over board trying to embrace the moon's reflection and drowns. So in the form we are reminded to use “Dynamic Balance”, falling and recovering in a “Cai Lang” (gathering the wave) fashion in order to dodge the impending spear thrust, and so we “coil” into our Dantien area, “gathering”, as we evade and seize before “issuing” to eviscerate the opponent (his moon). Its a very poetic description with many levels of meaning, that involves cultural understanding (another reason that without proper instruction or what is called a “true transmission” (Zhen Chuan) Gung Fu knowledge is unfathomable and easily mistranslated.

So when we look at the revered Knight Errant Li Po, a folk hero like our Finn McCumhail, is there much “modern” “respect” there, in a consummate drunk who spent his life in bed with other men's wives, writing the greatest poetry in Chinese Literature and dueling constantly, killing many sons of the nobility, would this today be viewed as honourable? Certainly through the lens of the Jiang-hu he is a hero, I admire him and his attitude myself, and his poetry is sublime. But are these the values parents of children studying with us hope we as Gung Fu Sifus can impart?

paulol · 30-12-2014 6:55pm

Peetrik wrote: »

Your original question was...

"Do you think that modern martial arts training is lacking the respect and honour that the older kind of training built themselves on?"

In my opinion it's not.
I reckon that firstly, the modern version of 'respect/honor', what is expected from TMAs (bowing, pj's etc) was never part of the original building blocks for it to be lacking now.

Secondly, the word "lacking" suggests deficient, absent, inferior. If anything modern combat sport have stripped away an unnecessary, manufactured aspect that has no real part in western society. I'm Irish, if I want to 'honor' my coach I buy him a pint.

Really I was talking about ALL martial arts training today and how modern society (todays generation) don't seem to care about the welfare of their training partners or competition opponents. Acting more like they are in a WWE show than a martial arts competition.

In the past (and I only mean the 70's 80's and 90's) respect was shown to a downed opponent, we turned our back until the ref said the fight was going on again. No one ran around the ring as if they just scored a goal in the world cup.

The values of being a decent person are not manufactured? They are part of being a good human.

paulol · 30-12-2014 7:03pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

So when we look at the revered Knight Errant Li Po, a folk hero like our Finn McCumhail, is there much “modern” “respect” there, in a consummate drunk who spent his life in bed with other men's wives, writing the greatest poetry in Chinese Literature and dueling constantly, killing many sons of the nobility, would this today be viewed as honourable? Certainly through the lens of the Jiang-hu he is a hero, I admire him and his attitude myself, and his poetry is sublime. But are these the values parents of children studying with us hope we as Gung Fu Sifus can impart?

I have already posted what parents actually want from an activity and that goes for any activity they put their children into. They want to have them physically active, mentally active and also instil good moral values, or in the very least not direct them on a contrary path.

I have pulled a number of competitors at competitions for disgraceful and brutish behaviour. It is something I have seen creep in for a number of years now and in a few disciplines. Which leads me to wonder are the coaches/instructors allowing the fighters act like this in training also or have an attitude of disregard towards others?

Niall Keane · 30-12-2014 7:37pm

paulol wrote: »

I have already posted what parents actually want from an activity and that goes for any activity they put their children into. They want to have them physically active, mentally active and also instil good moral values, or in the very least not direct them on a contrary path.

I have pulled a number of competitors at competitions for disgraceful and brutish behaviour. It is something I have seen creep in for a number of years now and in a few disciplines. Which leads me to wonder are the coaches/instructors allowing the fighters act like this in training also or have an attitude of disregard towards others?

I don't feel this to be recent or related to a modern ethos in martial arts instruction. My own Sifu Dan Docherty, despite his achievements e.g. winning the open weight division of the 1980 SE Asian, the UFC of the day, actually dislikes full contact competition due to the risks it places upon competitors. He understands the necessity of such and has run the British Open for over 28 years now which comprises of Chinese Full Contact amongst other combat sports(similar to Sanda, but with oldschool rules and no chest protectors etc.)
His dislike and relief when each event passes without serious injury arises as in the 80's he often refereed Chinese Full Contact events in Hong Kong. At one such event one of the athletes was killed by a roundhouse kick that landed on his neck.

It turns out it was no accident, the individual who landed the blow had landed a similar shot a couple of years previously and on that occasion had also killed his opponent. Turns out his Sifu trained him to do this and had him mainly practice kicking at a tree trunk in a park near Kowlon at a precise point meant to simulate the opponents neck.

The fighter was tried and convicted. The Sifu continued on his path which also involved training Red Poles for criminal Triad organisations.

there again.... there is a massive link between Kung Fu and criminal Triad activity throughout Hong Kong and Taiwan. Most oldschool and indoor Kung Fu students will be well aware of this!

When Dan first went to HK as an Officer in the Vice Squad of the HK police, he sought out martial arts instructors, one of the first was a famous Wing Tsun Sifu. He had his training gear stolen, it was a fcuk you to the police from the Triads who trained there. Afterwards he asked his Physical Education Officer for advice on where to train, who directed him towards Cheng Tin-hung. Cheng was a famous / infamous brawler who fought with fist and sword and refused to pay tribute to triads etc. And simply wanted no part in such criminality, but wouldn't take **** either. His own grandfather had been a professional martial artist and this involved at times running and protecting the local Opium trade!

To suggest the good old days were "good" is extremely naive when it comes to Gung Fu. What parents expect from martial arts schools and instructors is as I previously said pure Disney fiction with no basis in historical fact!

paulol · 30-12-2014 8:23pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

I don't feel this to be recent or related to a modern ethos in martial arts instruction. My own Sifu Dan Docherty, despite his achievements e.g. winning the open weight division of the 1980 SE Asian, the UFC of the day, actually dislikes full contact competition due to the risks it places upon competitors. He understands the necessity of such and has run the British Open for over 28 years now which comprises of Chinese Full Contact amongst other combat sports(similar to Sanda, but with oldschool rules and no chest protectors etc.)
His dislike and relief when each event passes without serious injury arises as in the 80's he often refereed Chinese Full Contact events in Hong Kong. At one such event one of the athletes was killed by a roundhouse kick that landed on his neck.

It turns out it was no accident, the individual who landed the blow had landed a similar shot a couple of years previously and on that occasion had also killed his opponent. Turns out his Sifu trained him to do this and had him mainly practice kicking at a tree trunk in a park near Kowlon at a precise point meant to simulate the opponents neck.

The fighter was tried and convicted. The Sifu continued on his path which also involved training Red Poles for criminal Triad organisations.

there again.... there is a massive link between Kung Fu and criminal Triad activity throughout Hong Kong and Taiwan. Most oldschool and indoor Kung Fu students will be well aware of this!

When Dan first went to HK as an Officer in the Vice Squad of the HK police, he sought out martial arts instructors, one of the first was a famous Wing Tsun Sifu. He had his training gear stolen, it was a fcuk you to the police from the Triads who trained there. Afterwards he asked his Physical Education Officer for advice on where to train, who directed him towards Cheng Tin-hung. Cheng was a famous / infamous brawler who fought with fist and sword and refused to pay tribute to triads etc. And simply wanted no part in such criminality, but wouldn't take **** either. His own grandfather had been a professional martial artist and this involved at times running and protecting the local Opium trade!

To suggest the good old days were "good" is extremely naive when it comes to Gung Fu. What parents expect from martial arts schools and instructors is as I previously said pure Disney fiction with no basis in historical fact!

No ideals or ideology can be followed to the fullest extent. In TKD too the leaders and founders had a pretty rotten and underhanded past. But it is the moral codes which we should try to follow, not the actions of humans who usually let themselves down.

I too hate the worship of people in cult-like devotion. But this can happen once a person is in a position of leadership. No matter what is done to disway the cult forming. Although in some ways it is how most of society works. We just need to be careful about who we worship.

Even with a life code to live by that is good and virtuous, it does not mean that even the people who wrote that code were able to stay on the track it laid out for them. But even so, that does not negate the value of the idea.

If that coach had tried to follow some of the basic budo traits then maybe a few people would be alive today?

Peetrik · 30-12-2014 8:47pm

paulol wrote: »

modern society (todays generation) don't seem to care about the welfare of their training partners or competition opponents. Acting more like they are in a WWE show than a martial arts competition.

I don't think this is true, at least not to the extent you are describing it. The pajama sports are for the most part very occupied with humility, honor, respect etc etc.

As for combat sports, I can only speak for my own club, but there is a huge support for all our training partners, people who don't have a fight coming up make sure to get down so that those that are matched to fight will have decent sparring partners, there is nothing but support and well wishes from all members.
Also, there is a strict policy against club members competing against each other to ensure there is no internal club rivalry.

As to celebrating after downing an opponent. Obviously it depends on the extent of the celebration, but punching the air and letting a shout is a very human reaction, you will see a similar thing at the finish line of any race. It's not necessairly an 'F you' to your opponent.

Again, doing push ups and flipping your opponent the bird is totally unacceptable but a completely stoic and emotionless response to winning a fight after 8 weeks of training would be much stranger than no response at all.

Niall Keane · 30-12-2014 9:06pm

I'm no expert on "Budo", but I guess like Peetrik called into question, so do I, is the "honourable" martial artist a historical reality or a shaw brothers invention?

When I read "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi the entire thesis is about how to "kill" your opponent, there isn't a single mention of morality, honour or respecting the humanity of your opponent. His own actions themselves - using an oar to duel a high ranking swordsman, upsetting him thus and gaining an edge and killing him, suggest a man more than willing to use honour and respect against the fools who hold it dear?

When I read Takuan I read about mindfulness and stillness, and the value of no-mind, and such meditative practice, but its not to form a circle, hold hands and hug each other, its to make reaction instant and accurate and free from delusion to enhance the chance of a successful KILL! In otherwords: How to be a deadly assassin. Again no advice on deportment or honourable dealings etc.

Now granted the "code of the Samurai", the Hagakure goes into all this, but that wasn't written by a samurai, by a fighter, but by an "intellectual", a lad with zero practical experience I believe?
I've read it and found it useless, annoying actually as it celebrates subservience, and beta traits that are anathema to a successful fighters mentality.

All the Chinese classics I've read - Tai Chi Classics, Hsing YI Classics, Ba Gua Classics, Chuan Ching, Art Of War, many many other writings of other major styles like White Crane, Wing Tsun, Hung Gar etc. and not so well known such as 37 Styles, Little Nine Heavens, Old 3 Fists, etc. etc. none of them reflect on social morality or honour, all focus on killing, perhaps in harmony with the Dao, i.e. efficiently in accordance with the changing situation, and certainly with the "Embrace the One" mindset, dissolving the distinction between opponent, environment and ourselves "unifying" with it instead, but its all about being a "bad motherfcuker", terms like viciousness and ruthlessness keep cropping up as "secret" words, from internal styles like Six Paths and Ten Tapestries to External Styles like Tibetan White Crane / Lion Roar.

As such I just find the premise that martial arts has anything to do with respect and honour as depicted in the Kung Fu Panda sense, and as parents seem to expect simply a MODERN fallacy, just like the the Disnified Shaolin and Wudang tourist trap schools that have sprung up from the ruins of such places.
They all claim to have been there for hundreds of years. I have photos of both places taken in 1984, both are ruins, a single Daoist Priest in his 80's lived on Wudang, who practiced Tai-He Chuan "for health and daoist cultivation", he made it clear to my Sifu that he was not a martial artist.

Yet today I meet people who have trained in these made-up tourist traps and genuinely believe what they have been sold. Enough believe and you have the very famous Chinese Expression:

真假, 假真 (zhen jia, jia zhen) "the real becomes fake, the fake becomes real"

paulol · 30-12-2014 9:09pm

Peetrik wrote: »

I don't think this is true, at least not to the extent you are describing it. The pajama sports are for the most part very occupied with humility, honor, respect etc etc.

Are sports are you talking about when you say pajama sports? Do you mean like judo and bjj?? Seeing as judo was the first martial art to start wearing the pj's?

Peetrik wrote: »

As for combat sports, I can only speak for my own club, but there is a huge support for all our training partners, people who don't have a fight coming up make sure to get down so that those that are matched to fight will have decent sparring partners, there is nothing but support and well wishes from all members.
Also, there is a strict policy against club members competing against each other to ensure there is no internal club rivalry.

Mostly and I say mostly internal club rivalry is friendly. But you will always find someone who thinks they are there to prove a point and they usually get the idea after a while.

Peetrik wrote: »

As to celebrating after downing an opponent. Obviously it depends on the extent of the celebration, but punching the air and letting a shout is a very human reaction, you will see a similar thing at the finish line of any race. It's not necessairly an 'F you' to your opponent.

Of course punching the air and letting a shout out is normal. But yes people are starting to carry on like they just won the world cup after dropping someone. It's quite gross.

Peetrik wrote: »

Again, doing push ups and flipping your opponent the bird is totally unacceptable but a completely stoic and emotionless response to winning a fight after 8 weeks of training would be much stranger than no response at all.

I don't expect people to carry on like Ryu in Street Fighter with arms folded after a victory. I do also see a good amount of respect for the downed fighter too. But the megadeathsuperkill celebration is creeping in.

Mellor · 04-01-2015 5:24pm

paulol wrote: »

Are sports are you talking about when you say pajama sports? Do you mean like judo and bjj?? Seeing as judo was the first martial art to start wearing the pj's?

I doubt thats what he is talking about.
The gi in judo is functional. It is there to facilitate the moves, and to stand up to the rigours of training. You could do most of the same moves in a regular pants and jacket. But you'd need new clothes every week.
A uniform also standardizes matches for competition.

Similar applies to BJJ. And of course nogi BJJ is a variation without the use of a gi or its grips.

Many other martial arts copied Judo's gi, even though it was n no way functional for their art, but it looked the part. In some cases, they added bells and whistles, and made them a bit silky, to look a bit oriental.
I'd imagine these are the pj's he is talking about.

Dyr · 04-01-2015 7:47pm

Mellor wrote: »

I doubt thats what he is talking about.
The gi in judo is functional. It is there to facilitate the moves, and to stand up to the rigours of training. You could do most of the same moves in a regular pants and jacket. But you'd need new clothes every week.
A uniform also standardizes matches for competition.

Similar applies to BJJ. And of course nogi BJJ is a variation without the use of a gi or its grips.

Many other martial arts copied Judo's gi, even though it was n no way functional for their art, but it looked the part. In some cases, they added bells and whistles, and made them a bit silky, to look a bit oriental.
I'd imagine these are the pj's he is talking about.

The gi is in judo etc because that was just the standard working clothes in japan at the time, same reason it's in other japanese arts.

What you're doing is justifying it existence by assigning a rationale when its just happenstance.

Niall Keane · 04-01-2015 8:14pm

Bambi wrote: »

The gi is in judo etc because that was just the standard working clothes in japan at the time, same reason it's in other japanese arts.

What you're doing is justifying it existence by assigning a rationale when its just happenstance.

Ah now!!! There's a short sleeve jacket in shuai jiao for exactly the reason that it doesn't keep getting ripped, and its been in use for centuries. Likewise Mongolian wrestling have leather straps jacket thing. Its to facilitate the functional aspect of
the sport. It is not decoration! Nor mere period costume drama. Not in combat sports.

The same cannot be said for the silky poorly tailored wushu PJs etc. That is pure performance art and period drama! Like I said earlier, breaking out a few dance moves to impress a few other lads dressed similarly and thus earning a colourful and extra silky belt might leave the wives of such dudes with a few
uncomfortable question ;-)

Its all good , and to each their own, just make sure you inform your potential partner male or female prior to any commitment as not everyone is in to swinging etc. ;-)

Joe Doe · 04-01-2015 8:43pm

Enjoyed training under a great Sifu back in the 80's, we were all give a handbook on a code of conduct from day one. Meditation, developing Chi, learning Chinese (written/vocal) along with historical and contextual factors were equally as important as the warm-up, sparring and form practices. Bad apples were quickly removed from practice.

Hope this is still the case for the facetwitterbook generation whom only have finger tips and large curved omled screens for their self-defence. On the plus side technology such as VR and full D3o suits may help reduce impact injuries which occurred even at the highest levels. Remember reading a statistic (way back) that golf was a more dangerous sport to practice than martial arts.

Peetrik · 04-01-2015 9:00pm

Joe Doe wrote: »

On the plus side technology such as VR and full D3o suits may help reduce impact injuries which occurred even at the highest levels.

In Thai the most injuries occur at the high levels, in fact... I'd go as far as to say injuring people is the whole point of Martial arts.

Joe Doe · 04-01-2015 9:14pm

True indeed, but death from a flying kick to the temple even in a supervised competitive semi-contact event isn't an ideal scenario for anyone. Wearing flexible 3mm d3o or (longer-term) a full immersive VR suit would prevent this in the future years.

Niall Keane · 04-01-2015 9:21pm

Joe Doe wrote: »

Enjoyed training under a great Sifu back in the 80's, we were all give a handbook on a code of conduct from day one. Meditation, developing Chi, learning Chinese (written/vocal) along with historical and contextual factors were equally as important as the @, sparring and form practices. Bad apples were quickly removed from practice.

Hope this is still the case for the facetwitterbook generation whom only have finger tips and large curved omled screens for their self-defence. On the plus side technology such as VR and full D3o suits may help reduce impact injuries which occurred even at the highest levels. Remember reading a statistic (way back) that golf was a more dangerous sport to practice than martial arts.

Sorry dorsnt make it traditional, makes it western kung fu fetishised but not traditional.
I am one of the very very few Irish individuals who is a recognised Sifu (I am authorised through a genuine and recognised lineage to undertake bai shi
with my students) .
Most Irish gung fu is dressed up mix of this and that - so my first position is always - question everything.

Certainly some schools with real gung fu have adopted the belts and uniforms. (Find me pre- 1930's photos of such?, hell find me pre-1970's in most cases / schools?)

There exists a video I've posted here before of my own Sigung - Cheng Tin-hung practocing with students in the late 50's - no uniforms, everyday clothes actually, lots and lots of applications and sparring.
The earliest video I've seen of gung fu and leitai fighting again have no uniforms or belts, well some have military uniforms as the performers were officers.

There were "commandments" we had to agree to prior to bai shi, but no moral rule book or any other Disney - kung fu panda - Shaw brothers ****e.

See originally gung fu was about fighting, not the moral development of school children!

Its funny though how every high level Sifu I know internationally of verifable lineage doesn't spout the Disney sh1t but keeps it real.

Chi in chinese martial arts simply means the flow of yin and yang, so opposites so lower body and upper, right and left, breath and movement (internal and external) etc. This was confirmed to me by the daoists of purple heaven on wudang and of white cloud in Beijing aside from my own school. What does it mean to you?

Niall Keane · 04-01-2015 9:47pm

Lets just get a few things out in the open about Gung Fu...

It was often practiced in temples.... as they were free and sheltered community centers. I've taught from a parish centre in my past, but I'm no Catholic Monk, nor do I ascribe to Christian teachings.
Also like cathedrals in medieval Europe they were sancturies so for example Wang Lan-ting in my own lineage, the chief martial arts instructor in Prince Duan (leader of Boxer Rebellion) household killed 6 Manchu during the Boxer Rebellion and afterwards sought refuge in a Buddhist temple - under house arrest for life so to speak.. same for many in Shaolin down the years.... not holymen, quite the opposite.

General Qi back in the 1600's criticized Shaolin for being "flashy" and "lacking practical skill" - "real gung fu is ugly, and the beautiful is fake". That's 400 years ago!!!

Wudang was more like a university, a place different martial artists went to to "exchange" knowledge and retreat to train. there are over 300 styles associated with the region, you never went knocking on a temple door, until the late 1990's!!!

Going back to General Qi, he wrote the Chuan Ching (classic of boxing) as part of a larger work. He states that hand to hand is useless for the military (bar strengthening new troops) which is concerned with weapons and formations, not unarmed combat. (and yet today we have people adopt belief systems in the likes of Krav etc. as they are practiced by the military, despite many actual military personal echoing Qi's statement again and again and again) Anyway he devised 32 "styles" (applications) that he formed from combining many martial arts, I'm tempted to say the first MMA, but lets face it nothing new under the sun and if records weren't perishable I wouldn't be surprised to find more MMA revolutions / evolution periodically throughout history. What's interesting though is the shear number of modern styles that incorporate many of these movements and names of styles within them, Tai Chi has 24 of them. So we can assume his "practical" method caught on and was adopted, and so we can assume that those styles too were at least at some stage focused on the practical not the esoteric.

This is all we can surmise from historical fact. Its just so at odds from the Disney projection, no matter how wholesome many believe this modern interpretation to be. Personally, of course, I see much more character development in honest combat sport following the verifiable tradition of LeiTai challenge matches (the tradition that made many founders famous in the first place) than in adopting a sanitized version full of contrived and scripted performances. After all one is genuine, the other "acted".

Joe Doe · 04-01-2015 9:52pm

Well 'modern traditional' with an strong emphasis on learning/respect is probably more applicable, positive and desired within a modern society than emphasis on the more pure lethal based fighting to defend the local village from frequent invasions of hand-to-hand combatants in the more historical, survival-based context. Overall possibly of more value and character building than simple boxing, playstation, football and such like, would you not agree? Historical purism with it's specific interpretations would have it's place too.

Peetrik · 04-01-2015 10:23pm

Joe Doe wrote: »

True indeed, but death from a flying kick to the temple even in a supervised competitive semi-contact event isn't an ideal scenario for anyone.

When's the last time you heard of a death from a flying kick?

What you are describing with VR machines is just video games, don't get me wrong, I like video games but it's not fighting. Part of fighting is the danger of getting injured, part of learning fighting is actually getting injured continuing to fight, if you take this element out then all you are learning is dance moves.

Dyr · 04-01-2015 10:24pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

The same cannot be said for the silky poorly tailored wushu PJs etc. That is pure performance art and period drama! Like I said earlier, breaking out a few dance moves to impress a few other lads dressed similarly and thus earning a colourful and extra silky belt might leave the wives of such dudes with a few
uncomfortable question ;-)

Its all good , and to each their own, just make sure you inform your potential partner male or female prior to any commitment as not everyone is in to swinging etc. ;-)

Ha ha yeah those guys in the fancy clothes are all poofters. :rolleyes:

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped bothering to post here.

Niall Keane · 04-01-2015 10:46pm

Bambi wrote: »

Ha ha yeah those guys in the fancy clothes are all poofters. :rolleyes:

Thanks for reminding me why I stopped bothering to post here.

their sexual orientation is their own business obviously, I'm just suggesting that it is a bit Camp, or perhaps Kitsch would be more appropriate a description?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch

Joe Doe · 04-01-2015 10:47pm

Peetrik wrote: »

When's the last time you heard of a death from a flying kick?
What you are describing with VR machines is just video games, don't get me wrong, I like video games but it's not fighting. Part of fighting is the danger of getting injured, part of learning fighting is actually getting injured continuing to fight, if you take this element out then all you are learning is dance moves.

Back in the 80's when this specific event occurred under competition event conditions, direct temple strikes or similar carry risks and frequent new items from time to time as 'single strike injuries'.

Full immersive VR suits are on the way, nothing at all like sitting playing video games. Won't be cheap initially but ideal for training and severe injury prevention. 360 multi-point cams on sub-millisecond wireless feedback along with true steroscopic vision, the level of injury desired (within reason of course) could simply be dialled in to the wearable pressure sensors. Likely to see a VR type 'hunger games' type live contestant events around 2020.

Mellor · 04-01-2015 10:58pm

Bambi wrote: »

The gi is in judo etc because that was just the standard working clothes in japan at the time, same reason it's in other japanese arts.

What you're doing is justifying it existence by assigning a rationale when its just happenstance.

Originally they might have used similar losing working kimonos. But the gi was introduced as a standard in early 1900, apparently by Kano. All the requirements added over the years, cut, length, material, thickness and weight, etc were all standardised for the sport requirements.

Even if they were standard working clothes, it's hard wearing properties made them functional for training. Along with providing grips. As in BJJ, or sambo.

By PJs, is be refering to something like this;
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v1/541037615_1/The-Hermit-movement-tai-chi-clothing-silk-martial-arts-performance-practice-clothing-National-men-and-women.jpg

Niall Keane · 04-01-2015 11:01pm

Joe Doe wrote: »

Back in the 80's when this specific event occurred under competition event conditions, direct temple strikes or similar carry risks and frequent new items from time to time as 'single strike injuries'.

Full immersive VR suits are on the way, nothing at all like sitting playing video games. Won't be cheap initially but ideal for training and severe injury prevention. 360 multi-point cams on sub-millisecond wireless feedback along with true steroscopic vision, the level of injury desired (within reason of course) could simply be dialled in to the wearable pressure sensors. Likely to see a VR type 'hunger games' type live contestant events around 2020.

Have you ever been to Asia? or even a pro-fight? Most people (bums on seats) are clueless of skill and tactics, they just want to see slugging is out, impact and blood. Read some of the sh1te written in the MMA forum by fans not fighters.
If people want to go all matrixy they will do it on a playstation etc. I grant that maybe. just maybe semi-contact / light-contact may move in that direction, but they lost reality quite some time ago.

there is an art to a full contact combat sport, that is so layered in complexity that in turn demands simplicity of expression that covers that complexity of function. That's the real beauty and art. If people don't have to protect themselves you have the dash for a score semi-contact nonsense. Nothing brings home the seriousness of it all more than the lights-out possibility.

and as far as skill goes, its a process! the accumulation of skill demands learning from errors, and demands risk and the treat of such, the alternative is fantasy. Any gobsh1te can pass the theory test, that doesn't make them F1 material!

Peetrik · 04-01-2015 11:13pm

+1 on what Niall said.

I've had more stitches than I can remember but I learned something each time and wear the scars proudly.

The risk of injury is a good thing. It's what makes it interesting, there is also a fair amount of catharsis involved but I won't go into that as I'll come off as a masochist

Zen65 · 06-01-2015 9:47am

Peetrik wrote: »

... I'd go as far as to say injuring people is the whole point of Martial arts.

I should hope not.

Of course learning how to injure / disable others is a core element of MA training, but actually causing injury is not at all in the spirit of the traditional arts.

The OP asks the question about diminished respect in modern MA. The original intent of the 'respect' was to ensure that training was carried out effectively but safely. If the attacker makes a half-hearted attack then the defender learns nothing (or worse, learns something wrong) from the encounter. Equally if the defender abuses his position to inflict unnecessary pain / damage on the attacker then the attacker will not easily agree to engaging fully in the training in future. Lack of respect has a direct consequence on learning, hence respect for one's training partners is a critical component of the MA ethos.

Sadly, this concept of respect has become distorted in many clubs & associations to become a sort of hero-worship, especially towards the instructor and senior grades. This has tended to weaken the arts and inhibit learning.

Respect for the instructor is good, and even important, but really only insofar as it means taking instruction diligently and actually applying oneself earnestly to training. Any form of reverence beyond that is silly and counter-productive. It is the hero-worship mentality that leads to the worst forms of politics and division in MA.

I train & teach Japanese karate-do, and this includes the bowing rituals at the start and end of class. We keep to that tradition simply as a means of opening and closing classes, and while I occasionally include an abbreviated Dojo K'un (code) recitation I do not like to over-formalise it as people can get overly attached to the sort of mindless ritualism which is interesting but unhelpful to training. Even the senior Japanese karate 'masters' (a term I use to signify longevity in the art) that I have had the pleasure of training with think that westerners sometimes get stuck in the mindset of bowing too often. When we face a training partner there is a short bow of respect to emphasise the importance of training hard with one another but agreeing not to do harm in the process. Mistakes are not punished with pain, but they are pointed out to afford the opportunity of learning from them.

In traditional karate-do, the core ("Do") of the training is about exerting oneself to improve your abilities. The techniques ("Jutsu") focus on effective defensive fighting, but this is considered less important than the philosophy of self-improvement. One can transfer the core learnings of karate-do to any aspect of life; a claim that can be made about almost any physical art. The importance of respect in that learning environment is that it enables full participation in training by everyone, regardless of their abilities or rank, on the basis that everybody's learning is enhanced by it, rather than simply affording senior ranks to inflict themselves on juniors as part of some nonsensical hierarchy of entitlement.

Niall Keane · 06-01-2015 9:06pm

Zen65 wrote: »

I should hope not.

Of course learning how to injure / disable others is a core element of MA training, but actually causing injury is not at all in the spirit of the traditional arts.

The OP asks the question about diminished respect in modern MA. The original intent of the 'respect' was to ensure that training was carried out effectively but safely. If the attacker makes a half-hearted attack then the defender learns nothing (or worse, learns something wrong) from the encounter. Equally if the defender abuses his position to inflict unnecessary pain / damage on the attacker then the attacker will not easily agree to engaging fully in the training in future. Lack of respect has a direct consequence on learning, hence respect for one's training partners is a critical component of the MA ethos.

Sadly, this concept of respect has become distorted in many clubs & associations to become a sort of hero-worship, especially towards the instructor and senior grades. This has tended to weaken the arts and inhibit learning.

Respect for the instructor is good, and even important, but really only insofar as it means taking instruction diligently and actually applying oneself earnestly to training. Any form of reverence beyond that is silly and counter-productive. It is the hero-worship mentality that leads to the worst forms of politics and division in MA.

I train & teach Japanese karate-do, and this includes the bowing rituals at the start and end of class. We keep to that tradition simply as a means of opening and closing classes, and while I occasionally include an abbreviated Dojo K'un (code) recitation I do not like to over-formalise it as people can get overly attached to the sort of mindless ritualism which is interesting but unhelpful to training. Even the senior Japanese karate 'masters' (a term I use to signify longevity in the art) that I have had the pleasure of training with think that westerners sometimes get stuck in the mindset of bowing too often. When we face a training partner there is a short bow of respect to emphasise the importance of training hard with one another but agreeing not to do harm in the process. Mistakes are not punished with pain, but they are pointed out to afford the opportunity of learning from them.

In traditional karate-do, the core ("Do") of the training is about exerting oneself to improve your abilities. The techniques ("Jutsu") focus on effective defensive fighting, but this is considered less important than the philosophy of self-improvement. One can transfer the core learnings of karate-do to any aspect of life; a claim that can be made about almost any physical art. The importance of respect in that learning environment is that it enables full participation in training by everyone, regardless of their abilities or rank, on the basis that everybody's learning is enhanced by it, rather than simply affording senior ranks to inflict themselves on juniors as part of some nonsensical hierarchy of entitlement.

I agree with much you have said and certainly about the respect for training partners and training sincerely, but like Peetrik mentioned earlier, this type of respect seems far more common amongst those who practice full-contact combat sports. After all if full-contact isn't part of the programme, (and having taught in Irelands largest university for years, and in many city-centre gyms I can attest that the vast majority of martial arts I've witnessed certainly do not train full-contact and I don't mean ape-**** stupidity, I mean regular wrestling or sparring with appropriate resistance) How then can such "respect" develop?
And lets be honest there's a lot of substitution of ritual for effectiveness many Traditional Martial arts, it drags us all down!
It attracts a certain element who are delighted to shy away from combat, but wear a belt that means they could if pushed, but don't out of "respect"? It is killing TMAs as a young man these days looking to gain and improve fighting skills is not so likely to turn up to a TMA gym and suffer such fools, he will be down to an MMA gym and such young men are the life-blood of "martial" arts.
And so a cycle begins, its like an STI that leaves the Art impotent, as once infected rarely if ever do they recover?

Zen65 · 06-01-2015 11:04pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

And lets be honest there's a lot of substitution of ritual for effectiveness many Traditional Martial arts, it drags us all down!

Agreed.

If your club includes teaching kids then you'll also know that many parents prefer their kids to attend classes where the ritual element is high and the contact is low so that little Johnny can safely become a black belt ninja without getting bruised along the way - while also becoming so disciplined that he'll not be trouble at school nor cause rows at home. This is a fine theory but it quickly leads to otherwise good clubs having to pander to that sort of training widespread and pretty soon your TMA club has become a play-school / crèche. I think this is a more dangerous STI (to use your crude but oddly appropriate metaphor) than the ritualisation problem. Many rituals can include a good beating!

Incidentally semi-contact training includes plenty of contact, albeit more controlled and restricted than full-contact. It rarely causes scars like Peetrik describes, but plenty of bruises. . . . so there is plenty of respect needed between training partners to ensure that tempers do not flare nor egos surface to diminish the atmosphere for genuine effort.

Peetrik · 06-01-2015 11:22pm

Zen65 wrote: »

If your club includes teaching kids then you'll also know that many parents prefer their kids to attend classes where the ritual element is high and the contact is low so that little Johnny can safely become a black belt ninja without getting bruised along the way

Easy fix for this, make it clear to parents that you teach a fighting system and that there will be bruises and the odd bloody nose from time to time. Don't pander to them.

Zen65 wrote: »

Incidentally semi-contact training includes plenty of contact, albeit more controlled and restricted than full-contact. It rarely causes scars like Peetrik describes

My scars were picked up from full contact fights, not from training.

Regarding "more controlled", I'd have to disagree. Having tried both (1 yr of taekwondo before I started Thai) in my experience the control needed to control strikes that you have drilled with 100% power against Thai kick pads or a heavy bag that are meant to follow through the target is much greater than controlling snappy strikes that you train to perform and then hold the pose in mid air. Just my experience.

bobster453 · 01-02-2015 10:58am

Imo respect is an integral part of TMA however it is important to note that this respect applies to the art and teachers who came before you first then to your current teacher and then to your classmates.I have trained hung ga fir many years and while respect is there it is not blind obedience to everything my sifu says or does.Eg he might have a particular application for part of a form but i might have a different one and we constantly explore in class all applications..some work better for some people while others work for others..this too is part of the journey.Probably the biggest issue is one that has already been stated which is unless you are prepared to water down your style to make it acceptable to parents you will not get kids attending.Thankfully my sifu..and yes he is accredited with full lineage..will only teach the way he was taught.Doesnt make a lot of dough because of that but to him and those of us who train regularly it is a way of life first and foremost.Sparring using applications is vital for even in semi contact nothing teaches quicker than broken ribs and bloody noses but even here the respect is key In most injuries i have suffered and seen it was more to do with a need to sharpen defences on the part of the injured rather than distespectful aggression on the part of the injurer

bobster453 · 01-02-2015 10:59am

Imo respect is an integral part of TMA however it is important to note that this respect applies to the art and teachers who came before you first then to your current teacher and then to your classmates.I have trained hung ga fir many years and while respect is there it is not blind obedience to everything my sifu says or does.Eg he might have a particular application for part of a form but i might have a different one and we constantly explore in class all applications..some work better for some people while others work for others..this too is part of the journey.Probably the biggest issue is one that has already been stated which is unless you are prepared to water down your style to make it acceptable to parents you will not get kids attending.Thankfully my sifu..and yes he is accredited with full lineage..will only teach the way he was taught.Doesnt make a lot of dough because of that but to him and those of us who train regularly it is a way of life first and foremost.Sparring using applications is vital for even in semi contact nothing teaches quicker than broken ribs and bloody noses but even here the respect is key In most injuries i have suffered and seen it was more to do with a need to sharpen defences on the part of the injured rather than distespectful aggression on the part of the injurer

FTA69 · 05-02-2015 10:15am

Peetrik wrote: »

Easy fix for this, make it clear to parents that you teach a fighting system and that there will be bruises and the odd bloody nose from time to time. Don't pander to them.

True. In my opinion the "impact injuries" from getting a slap aren't the injuries you need to worry about from training in combat sports, it's all the sh*te accumulations over the years. My wrist has been aching for months (ballerina-thin wrists), I've tendonitis in my shoulders and my knee aches.

I'd gladly swap them all for the odd broken nose or black eye.

Martial Arts Respect?

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