The Cesaro thread potential spoilers

Agent Coulson · 28-12-2014 12:10am #1

From winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal and becoming a Heyman guy to NXT fueding with Itami and Balor nine months later.

He doesn’t quite have the charisma, he doesn’t have quite the verbal skills. Maybe it’s because he’s Swiss, I don’t know in terms of European style… at the moment, he lacks it.”

Poor Cesaro

:mad::(

A least fanboys will get a few more dream match up's on NXT

rovert · 28-12-2014 12:13am

Agent Coulson wrote: »

From winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal and becoming a Heyman guy to NXT fueding with Itami and Balor nine months later.

Poor Cesaro :mad::(

A least fanboys will get a few more dream match up's on NXT

He turned 34 today so he is probably too old to be pushed!

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 12:36am

Oh man. I really wish they did something more with him. The team with Tyson Kidd is really good.

Moneymaker · 28-12-2014 1:32am

I'd rather see Cesaro put on awesome matches with these guys then flounder in the mid card.

NXT has made Kidd relevant again. Maybe Cesaro too.

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 2:26am

Well, that too. I said it in the TLC thread, I am happy with Dolph Ziggler's position on the card, because he is consistently performing well. As long as Cesaro still performs well I don't care what show he appears on. But, as us Irish would say, ya couldn't find a nicer fella.

leggo · 28-12-2014 5:50am

Like him or not, JR has a great way of summing up NXT talent in the way that you only want them called up when creative has something for them. Cesaro is the same. Would you rather see him job in 3-minute TV matches to Big Show or show what he can do in 20-minute main events with Balor?

Personally, I agree with WWE's assessment of Cesaro. Aside from the swing (which is a babyface move while he was being booked as a heel), he's never connected with their audience and thus shouldn't be pushed despite the fact we know he can do so much more. Has he come up with a gimmick that would allow us to appreciate his technical nous while also connecting with a WWE crowd? If not, why are we supporting him again if he can't fill that basic requirement after all these years? Is he really that talented, in that case? Or is he a guy who can do some cool stuff but falls short in the big picture?

He may just not be a good fit for WWE...and hey, there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of talented guys have thrived upon realising they're not cut out to be family entertainers. And that's what being a WWE guy is - they have no obligation to push the best technical wrestlers in the world and need guys to fill the specific spots that they require, rather than working the job around the talent at their disposal (who are all ultimately replaceable, bar Cena at a push).

DM_7 · 28-12-2014 12:21pm

How do people connect with the crowd when they never talk, rarely interact with other superstars that the crowd care about where they look good?

Cesaro did connect with the crowd by showing his skills and strength in the ring. He regularly got peoples attention that way and in more ways than just a big swing.

Maybe they held off on him as they were unsure about his talking skills. Clearly he is working in that as seen in his recent videos reviewing things like the slammys.

CastorTroy · 28-12-2014 12:42pm

Sure what's Daniel Bryan's gimmick apart from saying "yes" and having a beard? I mean he's pretty much in the same boat as Cesaro, where he's over and the fans let the wwe know it.

As for the next nxt big event, this is more like the older days where we get months of build up for a match instead of just weeks

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 12:50pm

Daniel Bryan's ability to rise above the odds has become his gimmick. In a way, it is similar to John Cena, and Hulk Hogan before him, how he kept fighting and fighting for months to get the championship. Also, being a man of the people, a leader of a movement is his gimmick.

bradlente · 28-12-2014 1:57pm

Cesaro was pushed as a face after the tag-team split,then he was immediately turned heel with Heyman,that hurt him.The King of Swing felt like a face gimmick whilst he was managed by a guy who was involved in the streak angle the night before.He'd be a decent mid-card face at the very least right now if it wasn't for that hare-brained double turn over two nights,that'd take anyones momentum away.

rossie1977 · 28-12-2014 3:16pm

CastorTroy wrote: »

Sure what's Daniel Bryan's gimmick apart from saying "yes" and having a beard? I mean he's pretty much in the same boat as Cesaro, where he's over and the fans let the wwe know it.

bryan got over with the 18-49 males playing an asshole heel where he treated aj horribly and was condescending towards opponents and fans with the yes stuff. then he got over with the kids/women playing a goofy comedy face in hell no. his current gimmick isn't the reason why bryan is/was over...

cesaro needs to show more on wwe tv, but when you see stuff like this is its baffling he isn't playing this character on raw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyqjfi29mf8

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 3:26pm

It's easier to convey that kind of a character if you're doing it in a backstage segment though, I'd imagine. If he is nervous at all, it is easier to do these things without the live audience. Daniel Bryan got over by excelling in any scenario they threw at him for 2 years basically.

leggo · 28-12-2014 4:05pm

See that's Cesaro's problem: there's nothing. I love the stuff like the Slammy's review and the bits he's done on the JBL & Cole Show. But how do you turn that into something people care about?

It's like...put it this way: wrestlers keep a notepad for ideas. All of them. It's like a comedian does with jokes. If any of you heard the interview I did with Joe Cabray/Luther Ward, he put it a great way when he spoke of Fergal having a pad full of ideas going into WWE. Cesaro strikes me as a guy who doesn't have those ideas ready to go. And that's entirely his own fault, because there's no end product. There's no little bits he's doing in the match that's clicking (and yeah, there's loads of wiggle room there even with the scripts - that wiggle room is where you make or break yourself). The trap dance thing he does? Gets no reaction. Sure the swing worked...but he was a heel and started seeking cheers. His job was to be booed, if you go into business for yourself in wrestling you will be punished by any promoter worth their salt.

I'm not saying he's a flop or failure, it just hasn't clicked yet and WWE are right in their assessment. It's not WWE's fault, fans are way too harsh on them whenever someone they like doesn't get over, like I've said a million times: they want him to get over.

Cianan2 · 28-12-2014 4:24pm

This Cesaro thing gives me deja vu... Very much reminds me of how everyone reacted whenever Ziggler did any promo stuff for Zack Ryder's youtube show back in 2011 - "why dont WWE use him like this on TV??"

He'll get his chance.

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 5:06pm

I guess some people just take longer than others, and that's a combination of WWE shifting their focus to different people at times, and also talents going through ups and downs. I mean, sometimes guys go through periods where they just aren't performing to standard either.

bradlente · 28-12-2014 6:05pm

I get the point that the roster needs to get themselves over as much as anything,but we all know how bad creative can be at times.It's the impatience with an idea that can be baffling.
They literally gave Cesaro about two sentences as a face when he won the battle royal,then he introduced Heyman and that was that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f89jikDOCc

It's funny because someone could argue that the crowd popped when Heyman came out so it's Cesaros own fault he didn't make it work,but the same person would also argue that the night after Mania crowd is irrelevant anyway because it's a "smart" crowd.

I think his push was sabotaged by someone that didn't want him getting over.The idea that everyone in charge of the company wants all the roster to get over is naive imo,some of those people at the top still have a lot to lose if that happens and a big spot when and where they want it is one of them.I think it was a great political move by someone,the Heyman aspect of it got the iwc on board too.

Fair enough I'm speculating here but saying Cesaro doesn't seem like a creative guy compared to others and needs to work harder on that is speculation too.

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 7:22pm

Personally, I think he is fully-formed. But I know that I am not the target audience for this stuff, and that WWE usually want something more than just a great athlete for their workers. Looking back at that clip, it reminded me of how annoyed I was that they just broke the Andre The Giant trophy during a brawl between himself and Jack Swagger. Something that could have potentially been a nice memorial to one of the most recogniseable legends that the company ever had was just discarded the night after it was won. Hulk Hogan could have probably been better utilised in that segment on Raw as well, putting him over more than he did, perhaps comparing Cesaro's win to his 1987 slam.

leggo · 28-12-2014 9:39pm

bradlente wrote: »

I get the point that the roster needs to get themselves over as much as anything,but we all know how bad creative can be at times.It's the impatience with an idea that can be baffling.
They literally gave Cesaro about two sentences as a face when he won the battle royal,then he introduced Heyman and that was that.

It's funny because someone could argue that the crowd popped when Heyman came out so it's Cesaros own fault he didn't make it work,but the same person would also argue that the night after Mania crowd is irrelevant anyway because it's a "smart" crowd.

I think his push was sabotaged by someone that didn't want him getting over.The idea that everyone in charge of the company wants all the roster to get over is naive imo,some of those people at the top still have a lot to lose if that happens and a big spot when and where they want it is one of them.I think it was a great political move by someone,the Heyman aspect of it got the iwc on board too.

Fair enough I'm speculating here but saying Cesaro doesn't seem like a creative guy compared to others and needs to work harder on that is speculation too.

Yeah, fair point, I am speculating there. But it's also pretty clear to see, guys have a say in doing their own thing and the one thing you always hear from former writers etc is how they'd work with wrestlers on character ideas. I've never worked in WWE, obviously, but it seems like the kind of place where you come up with stuff for yourself first and foremost (at least successful people do) and then if it fits they work it into the programme. Again if he's not doing this, that's on him.

Trust me when I say though: Vince isn't hiring and paying guys to have them not make him money for him. Sure there could be writers and people down the chain who may not like Cesaro and don't want him to succeed, but if Vince and Triple H like him then their opinion means nothing. The idea of pushes being sabotaged and so on is massively overblown by bitter wrestlers whose success didn't match their ambitions. You hear that stuff all over wrestling - I've heard people blame me personally because they're not in WWE now sure! - and it's only when you're in that position that you realise how ridiculous that notion is. It's a case of an average Joe with an ego projecting his frustration on someone else because that's easier than looking inwards for an answer that isn't coming to them. If someone is so good he can make a promoter a lot of money, they'll get where they need to be. Otherwise they're messing up somewhere along the way. It really is that simple.

spektorfive · 28-12-2014 10:46pm

Vince doesn't rate Cesaro. (Vince said it himself.) Hence Cesaro will never get anywhere. The writers be too afraid to present ideas to Vince for Cesaro and unless Cesaro can get himself over to Daniel Bryan levels he'll never go anywhere. He should leave when he contract comes up.

DM_7 · 28-12-2014 11:28pm

Might need its own thread by now.

But in Cesaro's case I doubt he was screwed up on purpose, it may have been a timing issue more than anything. Losing Bryan for example would have changed a lot of WWE's plans for the summer. It likely sped up the end of the Shield. Caused them to refocus plans for others (like Cena for example) to make up for the loss of Bryan.

I would think plans for Cesaro when he was put with Heyman were for him to possibly feud with Cena or maybe even Bryan over the summer leading them into the Brock match. Once they split the Shield he would have lost focus and not have been a priority for them.

His timeline post the WWE title ladder match at MITB reads the story of someone creative were told to press hold on and focus elsewhere. WWE are awful at building/looking after people down the card. They know they can turn it around quick (which is an pain for us but makes it easy for them). Swagger before his own mess up or recently Ryback are examples of that.

Stereomaniac · 28-12-2014 11:32pm

I'm not sure if leaving WWE would to be on the indies, or Ring Of Honor, or TNA or wherever, would really be a success in his mind though, do you think? WWE is the peak for many.

paulosam · 29-12-2014 12:01am

Cesaro always seems charismatic enough in those little backstage clips, but that never seems to translate when he's cutting a promo, or in the ring. His matches are technically brilliant, but dull. I don't think there's some conspiracy to hold him down, he just doesn't seem to be good enough at what WWE are looking for in anything beyond a mid carder.

His (often hard to easily understand) accent would be another problem for the casual viewer as well I'd imagine. That aspect of his game hasn't really improved at all in his time in WWE, which is certainly on him.

Stereomaniac · 29-12-2014 1:40am

I find his delivery to be pretty funny when he's on the mic. He reminds me of one of these kinda smug bully types, who doesn't look like he'd be able to handle himself, but then he backs it up. As I said earlier, this is not what appeals to the target market though. Also, I think that he was a victim of right guy at the wrong time syndrome a little bit too. He'll be alright.

Agent Coulson · 29-12-2014 1:44am

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I find his delivery to be pretty funny when he's on the mic. He reminds me of one of these kinda smug bully types, who doesn't look like he'd be able to handle himself, but then he backs it up. As I said earlier, this is not what appeals to the target market though. Also, I think that he was a victim of right guy at the wrong time syndrome a little bit too. He'll be alright.

Actually a kind of Big Bully Busick gimmick might suit him to the ground.

Rjd2 · 29-12-2014 1:55am

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I'm not sure if leaving WWE would to be on the indies, or Ring Of Honor, or TNA or wherever, would really be a success in his mind though, do you think? WWE is the peak for many.

Yeah but to be fair the midcard and lower card workers probably aren't earning what they were since the Network so if you are a name you can still make decent money on the indies and work an easier schedule.

Bounty Hunter · 29-12-2014 2:10am

*split from news thread*

Personally I think if they ever pushed him he would hit it out of the park as he is ready but they aren't giving him anything decent and maybe he isn't sticking his neck out showing them he's ready to make them do so.

either way id be happy to see him and Devitt n'co in matches as suggested.

His misses (SDR) is working in the performance center too iirc so perhaps he wouldnt be in a rush to be going back to the indies and wouldnt mind spending more time with NXT etc

gerrybbadd · 29-12-2014 11:03am

I feel real bad for Cesaro. I feel he has it all really, and if he was booked correctly, wouldn't need a huge amount of mic skills - let his ring work do the talking.

But the thing is, I don't feel his mic skills are bad at all. This is evidenced by his work with Zayn in NXT. Cesaro should be booked as an absolute killer, ruthless like. He has massive strength, and some of the things that his strength allows him to do in the ring are unbelievable.

But I fear that, the way Vince had labelled him, very publicly, means there will be no way for him to progress to the main event spots. What he said about not connecting with the audience is bull sheite too - Cesaro was well over as part of the Real Americans, the crowd would go mad for his Giant Swing, etc. But they took that from him and have done their best to hold him back.

29-12-2014 11:25am

RE the swing

Cesaro was a HEEL. They are ment too be boo'd not preform moves the people cheer. It was a no brainier too take it off him!

gerrybbadd · 29-12-2014 12:29pm

MrMac84 wrote: »

RE the swing

Cesaro was a HEEL. They are ment too be boo'd not preform moves the people cheer. It was a no brainier too take it off him!

The swing was a cool move that people liked to cheer. But so is the RKO. So, should Randy lose the RKO when he's heel?

When the swing was taken, Cesaro was at a stage where he was a cool heel, a heel people wanted to cheer. He probably could have been turned face at this stage very successfully if handled right.

paulosam · 29-12-2014 1:22pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

I feel real bad for Cesaro. I feel he has it all really, and if he was booked correctly, wouldn't need a huge amount of mic skills - let his ring work do the talking.

But the thing is, I don't feel his mic skills are bad at all. This is evidenced by his work with Zayn in NXT. Cesaro should be booked as an absolute killer, ruthless like. He has massive strength, and some of the things that his strength allows him to do in the ring are unbelievable.

But I fear that, the way Vince had labelled him, very publicly, means there will be no way for him to progress to the main event spots. What he said about not connecting with the audience is bull sheite too - Cesaro was well over as part of the Real Americans, the crowd would go mad for his Giant Swing, etc. But they took that from him and have done their best to hold him back.

I think the "We the people chant" and Zeb were over rather than Cesaro or Swagger. People still react to it now even when Swagger does it today sure.Also what modern era main event wrestler has ever solely let his in ring skills do the talking? I can't recall any besides Benoit, and his run at the top didn't last very long.

Also NXT is so far removed from the main shows that I think its pointless to say "he was good there, so why can't he blood here?" because the pressures on performers are incredibly different.

The only tools I've seen Cesaro display on the main roster are strength and wrestling ability, which aren't exactly rare commodities in today's era. Can't recall a single memorable promo or angle. Hopefully he can find something that clicks, but it's looking less and less likely IMO.

rovert · 29-12-2014 1:40pm

Burying his own theme last night

The Cesaro thread *potential spoilers*

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The Cesaro thread potential spoilers