Commercial cars/jeeps

Parchment · 26-12-2014 1:54pm #1

Hi,

Maybe this forum could finally clear up a grey area for me.

Can I as a non-self employed person without a company/business of my own. Buy, insure, tax, DOE and use a commercial vehicle as my car?

I ask as we cycle a lot and it would be great to be able to have a commercial jeep/car-van to get the bikes into the back. There are only two of us also so we have no use for 4 seats.

Hopefully you can help!
Thanks

bigroad · 26-12-2014 2:08pm

Yes you can if you are willing to pay private road tax .
Insure my van should be able to sort the insurance.
It can be tricky but their should be no reason why this cant be done.

Bpmull · 26-12-2014 2:10pm

bigroad wrote: »

Yes you can if you are willing to pay private road tax .
Insure my van should be able to sort the insurance.
It can be tricky but their should be no reason why this cant be done.

Once the op has it taxed privately and insured correctly with a valid cvrt (used to be called dos has to be done annually) the gaurds should have no issue with it at all as it's legit.

bigroad · 26-12-2014 2:17pm

i havent done this yet myself,but if someone has a commercial privately insured could they post some details to let others know.
Its nice to have everything right and in order in case there is a problem along the way.

Parchment · 26-12-2014 2:45pm

i assume the road tax will be very high - otherwise way more people would use a commercial as their car?!

corktina · 26-12-2014 3:52pm

the game has changed a bit now, but it use to be the case that Commercials were way cheaper to tax which is why obstacles had to be put in peoples way to try and stop them doing it

Yes you can tax a van privately, but it might be fairly hard to get insurance sorted (not impossible though)

Del2005 · 26-12-2014 3:53pm

Parchment wrote: »

i assume the road tax will be very high - otherwise way more people would use a commercial as their car?!

You can get decent sized vans with reasonable sized engines. The reason why most people don't use commercials as their car is because some people like cars and the restricted views from commercials can be dangerous/difficult to get used to. The other issue with using commercial as a daily driver is that commercial insurance is generally more expensive and then the more stringent CVT test for commercials

Parchment · 26-12-2014 3:56pm

corktina wrote: »

the game has changed a bit now, but it use to be the case that Commercials were way cheaper to tax which is why obstacles had to be put in peoples way to try and stop them doing it

Yes you can tax a van privately, but it might be fairly hard to get insurance sorted (not impossible though)

Thats what i was thinking. Otherwise i guess many people who didnt have a need for a larger car would just opt for a commercial. I cant seem to find a definitive answer on the matter.

Im sure its a rocky road to go down - otherwise it would be more widely done. its a pity as it would be great for our situation.

Bpmull · 26-12-2014 4:05pm

Parchment wrote: »

Thats what i was thinking. Otherwise i guess many people who didnt have a need for a larger car would just opt for a commercial. I cant seem to find a definitive answer on the matter.

Im sure its a rocky road to go down - otherwise it would be more widely done. its a pity as it would be great for our situation.

There is nothing to stop you taxing it commercially you fill in your pps number instead of vat number on the form go to the Garda station get the form stamped but you would be breaking the law. Now I've never heard of a gaurd actually stop someone to quiz them on whether the vehicle was being used commercially they do have the right too. Also considering you will soley be using the vehicle for private use it would be a rocky and no doubt the wrong road to go down but I'm just giving you the information.

Obviously taxing it privately is similar no trip to the Garda station. One thing to note is all commercial vehicle taxed privately are based on old cc tax system based on engine size they are never based on emissions even if it's a 142 van.

Del2005 · 27-12-2014 2:34am

Bpmull wrote: »

There is nothing to stop you taxing it commercially you fill in your pps number instead of vat number on the form go to the Garda station get the form stamped but you would be breaking the law. Now I've never heard of a gaurd actually stop someone to quiz them on whether the vehicle was being used commercially they do have the right too. Also considering you will soley be using the vehicle for private use it would be a rocky and no doubt the wrong road to go down but I'm just giving you the information.

Obviously taxing it privately is similar no trip to the Garda station. One thing to note is all commercial vehicle taxed privately are based on old cc tax system based on engine size they are never based on emissions even if it's a 142 van.

All the Garda is doing when you sign the form is witnessing your signature, you are making the legally binding declaration that you won't use the vehicle for private use, it's a shame that the law isn't followed in these cases.

27-12-2014 2:51am

Can I ask ye guys,

If I buy a commercial, and stick my PPS on the form to tax it, is it just the Garda stamp and off to the tax office? Get your tax disc and that's it?

Do Revenue not have a say, somewhere along the way, no?

What I'm getting at, is, do you just get it stamped at a Garda station, paid in a tax office, and that's it? Unless a Garda does give you grief over it, are you in the clear?

corktina · 27-12-2014 8:25am

see post 10

Buona Fortuna · 27-12-2014 10:05am

Humm, a couple of things.

Around here, Garda regularly wait outside schools looking for jeeps and vans doing the school run.

Also when you tax a commercial vehicle there are signs in the tax office saying you must also produce a copy of your self employed tax assessment.

cormie · 27-12-2014 10:23am

Yep, evidence of correspondence from revenue of being registered for VAT or a tax clearance certificate are also required and they must be dated within the last 6 months.

The last garda stamp I got, it seemed like nobody in the station at the time had done it before and he was pretty inquisitive about it and what the business was etc, another time the garda pretty much just took it off me, stamped and signed it all in about 4 seconds without hardly glancing at what was on the page.

What about buying one of them wheelchair adapted vehicles? I'm not sure how they are taxed, but just that they would have been converted to allow for loads of space in the back?

Bpmull · 27-12-2014 1:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can I ask ye guys,

If I buy a commercial, and stick my PPS on the form to tax it, is it just the Garda stamp and off to the tax office? Get your tax disc and that's it?

Do Revenue not have a say, somewhere along the way, no?

What I'm getting at, is, do you just get it stamped at a Garda station, paid in a tax office, and that's it? Unless a Garda does give you grief over it, are you in the clear?

I dont actually know what a garda would do if they stopped you and decided to do you for private use of a commercially taxed vehicle. Whether it's that they take the vehicle, fine and penalty points, take you to court. I don't think it actually clearly says it anywhere the potential penalties. The vast majority of garda don't care but then you only need to get one that's out to prove a point and you will be potentially in alot of trouble.

Gumbo · 27-12-2014 1:56pm

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Humm, a couple of things.

Around here, Garda regularly wait outside schools looking for jeeps and vans doing the school run.

Also when you tax a commercial vehicle there are signs in the tax office saying you must also produce a copy of your self employed tax assessment.

I just tax my dads van online. Saves the hassle of form stamping etc

bulleyes · 27-12-2014 2:09pm

Parchment wrote: »

Hi,

Can I as a non-self employed person without a company/business of my own. Buy, insure, tax, DOE and use a commercial vehicle

Thanks

My understanding of this area is.

Yes, anyone can buy any vehicle.

You cant insure a commercial vehicle as a private vehicle. A commercial is a commercial and needs to be insured as a commercial. If using it privately it will need commercial insurance to include social, domestic and pleasure use on the policy. The reason it cant have a private policy is because it would be registered as a van (n1). Vans are commercial and need to be insured as such. For the same reason you cant insure a motorbike on a tractor policy.

Tax, if you want to stay above board just tax it for private use.

Doe, all commercials need a doe test, you wont be able to tax your vehicle without a valid test.

So simply, yes, you can buy, insure, tax and test a van and use it for daily personal use.

Buona Fortuna · 27-12-2014 2:24pm

kceire wrote: »

I just tax my dads van online. Saves the hassle of form stamping etc

Feckers don't always give you the choice

Buona Fortuna · 27-12-2014 2:28pm

bulleyes wrote: »

My understanding of this area is.

Yes, anyone can buy any vehicle.

Tax, if you want to stay above board just tax it for private use.

Yes. Plenty don't though. I believe the disparity between private and commercial has eased some bit in the case of newer vehicles.

Doe, all commercials need a doe test, you wont be able to tax your vehicle without a valid test.

So simply, yes, you can buy, insure, tax and test a van and use it for daily personal use.

This covers it https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=faq

10Q. What are the testing requirements for a Goods vehicle taxed privately? 10A. All goods vehicles must complete an annual roadworthiness test in a Commercial Vehicle Test Centre, regardless of how the vehicle is taxed. The motor tax category of a vehicle has no bearing on how the vehicle must be tested. Under vehicle testing regulations, a goods vehicle (EU categories N for motor vehicles and O for trailers) is a vehicle constructed or adapted primarily for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description whether or not it is used for such a purpose. This includes vehicles such as car vans and 4x4 vehicles converted for goods use. For more information on the above, you may contact the Commercial Vehicle Testing Section of the Road Safety Authority at 091 872600, cvtadmin@rsa.ie or at www.rsa.ie.

George Dalton · 27-12-2014 2:30pm

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Yes. Plenty don't though. I believe the disparity between private and commercial has eased some bit in the case of newer vehicles.[/URL]

It hasn't because commercial vehicles when taxed privately are always taxed on CC, regardless of age. Tax based on CO2 is only applicable to private cars, never commercials.

George Dalton · 27-12-2014 2:33pm

kceire wrote: »

I just tax my dads van online. Saves the hassle of form stamping etc

You can only renew tax that way. You still have to have done the form stamping etc first time round.

Once you provide the necessary documentation when taxing the commercial vehicle for the first time then you don't need it when renewing the tax, regardless of whether you renew online or in the motor tax office.

Gumbo · 27-12-2014 2:58pm

George Dalton wrote: »

You can only renew tax that way. You still have to have done the form stamping etc first time round.

Once you provide the necessary documentation when taxing the commercial vehicle for the first time then you don't need it when renewing the tax, regardless of whether you renew online or in the motor tax office.

So Im guessing the work around is buy a second hand commercial car and you can simply renew?

George Dalton · 27-12-2014 3:08pm

kceire wrote: »

So Im guessing the work around is buy a second hand commercial car and you can simply renew?

No the first taxing under any owner is subject to satisfying the requirements for commercial tax.

27-12-2014 5:39pm

George Dalton wrote: »

No the first taxing under any owner is subject to satisfying the requirements for commercial tax.

So in a perfect world, the seller would tax the vehicle for 12 months, about 5 minutes before he sells it to you?

That way you can evade the problem for a year?

The thing that gets me about this is that, I actually like jeeps. I like their look/appearance etc. but can't justify tax of over €1,000 for the sake of my taste in cars.

However, I actually am self employed. I'm a photographer.

It kills me to pay €710 per year on a 2 litre Peugeot 407, when I could have a jeep (that I'd much prefer) at €333.

My concern is that revenue will turn around and say "Sure you're not transporting enough gear/making enough money/travelling far enough" or some other reason to give me a hard time.

Or is it literally a case that once you're doing something (anything at all), even if you only get one job on per year, and it's in the next door neighbours house, and you get paid €3.50 for it, do you still get away with having a commercially taxed vehicle?

Gumbo · 27-12-2014 5:42pm

George Dalton wrote: »

No the first taxing under any owner is subject to satisfying the requirements for commercial tax.

I haven't been hit with that at all in the last few years. My dad has gone through 3 vans, a hi ace and two Transits and not once have we gotten any form stamped by anybody.

George Dalton · 27-12-2014 6:02pm

kceire wrote: »

I haven't been hit with that at all in the last few years. My dad has gone through 3 vans, a hi ace and two Transits and not once have we gotten any form stamped by anybody.

You obviously encountered an official who was not interested in making life difficult for either themselves or your dad at that particular time. There is no consistency in the system. First of all the requirements vary between different counties.

Then the officials who work behind the counter in the various tax offices can decide to give you a tax disc without any of the prerequisites if they so choose. Or they can decide to do everything by the book if they so choose.

When they first started enforcing the commercial tax rate rules I couldn't renew the tax on our work vans until I got a letter from revenue stating our VAT number. This was in addition to having the goods only declaration stamped in a Garda station and including the VAT number on the form. So the VAT number on its own wasn't sufficient, they needed proof of registration for VAT. Then a few weeks later one of our customers who had no right whatsoever to commercial tax strolled into the same tax office one morning with nothing more than his insurance and DOE certs and came out 5 minutes later with a tax disc.

Gumbo · 27-12-2014 6:14pm

George Dalton wrote: »

You obviously encountered an official who was not interested in making life difficult for either themselves or your dad at that particular time. There is no consistency in the system. First of all the requirements vary between different counties.

Then the officials who work behind the counter in the various tax offices can decide to give you a tax disc without any of the prerequisites if they so choose. Or they can decide to do everything by the book if they so choose.

When they first started enforcing the commercial tax rate rules I couldn't renew the tax on our work vans until I got a letter from revenue stating our VAT number. This was in addition to having the goods only declaration stamped in a Garda station and including the VAT number on the form. So the VAT number on its own wasn't sufficient, they needed proof of registration for VAT. Then a few weeks later one of our customers who had no right whatsoever to commercial tax strolled into the same tax office one morning with nothing more than his insurance and DOE certs and came out 5 minutes later with a tax disc.

That's why I always do it online for him. I've never had to get any of these forms done before. Anytime he bought a new (second hand) van I just go online and renew it without any forms submission at all. It's dublin too, don't know if that makes a difference.

Buona Fortuna · 27-12-2014 8:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Or is it literally a case that once you're doing something (anything at all), even if you only get one job on per year, and it's in the next door neighbours house, and you get paid €3.50 for it, do you still get away with having a commercially taxed vehicle?

I'd be the first to agree that our car tax needs fixing.

If you have the jeep as commercial, you agree to only use it for business purposes.

Its never affected me. The obvious "catch" for the Gards is the school run, I suppose most other trips would be more ambiguous.

27-12-2014 8:25pm

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

I'd be the first to agree that our car tax needs fixing.

If you have the jeep as commercial, you agree to only use it for business purposes.

Its never affected me. The obvious "catch" for the Gards is the school run, I suppose most other trips would be more ambiguous.

Ah okay.. I'd be alright then, I'd say. I think I'd get around the commercial thing. My car is 80% business use (private use in bad weather.. can't be getting wet!

)

You can have a 4 seater commercial now anyway, can't you? (crewcab etc.?). Edit: Need to have a minimum of three employees

Buona Fortuna · 27-12-2014 8:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah okay.. I'd be alright then, I'd say. I think I'd get around the commercial thing. My car is 80% business use (private use in bad weather.. can't be getting wet! )

You can have a 4 seater commercial now anyway, can't you? (crewcab etc.?). Edit: Need to have a minimum of three employees

That's what I have - Hilux.

I have no employees and no one has ever asked.

You need to transport equipment, who knows what you're photographing. It could be cowsheds in the middle of the OoLu

corktina · 27-12-2014 9:06pm

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

I'd be the first to agree that our car tax needs fixing.

If you have the jeep as commercial, you agree to only use it for business purposes.

Its never affected me. The obvious "catch" for the Gards is the school run, I suppose most other trips would be more ambiguous.

that "only" needs to be emphasised....It has always been the case that you are not supposed to use a Commercial for anything else, never stopped me but then again.....The Gards never stopped me either.

Bpmull · 27-12-2014 9:13pm

corktina wrote: »

that "only" needs to be emphasised....It has always been the case that you are not supposed to use a Commercial for anything else, never stopped me but then again.....The Gards never stopped me either.

There seems to be very few garda that have any interest in doing people for it. From there point of view it's a lot easier to do a someone for no tax or nct bald tyres etc. where as trying to prove someone is using a commercial privately is more difficult. As I said I've never heard of anyone been done it doesn't seem to be enforced once you go through the procedure to get the commercial tax.

TrailerBob · 28-12-2014 9:57am

6 years and 160,000 miles in my commercial landcruiser. Countless Garda checkpoints... but all above board. Never asked about what I was using it for. That has included stops at all hours of day and night, and once we were going to a wedding in it. Gardai are stretched as it is, they don't care if Tommy is using the van to go for a pint of milk of a Sunday.

28-12-2014 10:14am

Never heard anyone ever have hassle over driving with commercial tax and Id know a lot of people with commercials from some used 100% for private use and commuting to those using it for their work but also as a private car (mostly farmers and tradesmen). Personally I wouldn't dream of paying private tax on something that could be taxed commercially.

corktina · 28-12-2014 10:48am

i bet you pay half fare on the bus too...(or would if you were not so tall

28-12-2014 3:44pm

corktina wrote: »

i bet you pay half fare on the bus too...(or would if you were not so tall

On the extremly rare occasion I use a bus I pay the cheapest fare I can get away with which is the student rate.

Paying the private rate of tax on a commercial vehicle is ridiculous in my opinion and the vast majority of people would agree with me on that hence why privately taxes commercials are a very rare beast on our roads.

rahmalec · 28-12-2014 10:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So in a perfect world, the seller would tax the vehicle for 12 months, about 5 minutes before he sells it to you?

That way you can evade the problem for a year?

The thing that gets me about this is that, I actually like jeeps. I like their look/appearance etc. but can't justify tax of over €1,000 for the sake of my taste in cars.

However, I actually am self employed. I'm a photographer.

It kills me to pay €710 per year on a 2 litre Peugeot 407, when I could have a jeep (that I'd much prefer) at €333.

My concern is that revenue will turn around and say "Sure you're not transporting enough gear/making enough money/travelling far enough" or some other reason to give me a hard time.

Or is it literally a case that once you're doing something (anything at all), even if you only get one job on per year, and it's in the next door neighbours house, and you get paid €3.50 for it, do you still get away with having a commercially taxed vehicle?

As a photographer you probably don't just have a camera, but tripods, other equipment, etc. Just have something in the back all the time :-)

28-12-2014 10:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

...........

The thing that gets me about this is that, I actually like jeeps. I like their look/appearance etc. but can't justify tax of over €1,000 for the sake of my taste in cars.

However, I actually am self employed. I'm a photographer.

.............

My concern is that revenue will turn around and say "Sure you're not transporting enough gear/making enough money/travelling far enough" or some other reason to give me a hard time.

............

Revenue aren't at all bothered, you can fill in the form documenting your PPS number if you don't have a VAT number for your photography business. State on the form you are a photographer, Garda stamps it, job done. Off to the tax office.

Now the problem comes if you intend using the vehicle privately after making a declaration that you will use it 100% for business use.

bren11 · 28-12-2014 11:09pm

I know a tradesman driving his transit, who was stopped at a garda checkpoint, with his daughter in one of those baby seats in passenger seat. He had to remain there until his partner was called to collect their daughter in their car. This wasnt a school run, but they probably reckoned she was too young to be an employee!

Buona Fortuna · 28-12-2014 11:11pm

Augeo wrote: »

Revenue aren't at all bothered, you can fill in the form documenting your PPS number if you don't have a VAT number for your photography business. State on the form you are a photographer, Garda stamps it, job done. Off to the tax office.

Now the problem comes if you intend using the vehicle privately after making a declaration that you will use it 100% for business use.

True. But the problem with that is enforcement. Virtually any journey he does would be easy to come up with a commercial reason: Meeting a client; picking up equipment; servicing the vehicle.

The Gards don't want to 17 rounds of angels on pinheads to make a case. That's why they wait outside schools for the Transits and 4x4s to drop the kids off. There's no amount of smart answers that will get you off of that.

I have heard of people done for it. I don't know the consequences. They're usually pretty quiet afterwards. I imagine its some sort of fine.

rahmalec · 28-12-2014 11:16pm

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

True. But the problem with that is enforcement. Virtually any journey he does would be easy to come up with a commercial reason: Meeting a client; picking up equipment; servicing the vehicle.

The Gards don't want to 17 rounds of angels on pinheads to make a case. That's why they wait outside schools for the Transits and 4x4s to drop the kids off. There's no amount of smart answers that will get you off of that.

I have heard of people done for it. I don't know the consequences. They're usually pretty quiet afterwards. I imagine its some sort of fine.

Would depend on the job. As a musician, I drive my commercial at all times except normal working hours ...

Commercial cars/jeeps

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