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Mens Rights Thread

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Comments

  • #1892
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    marienbad wrote: »
    Not at all , nothing one says will be accepted , as well as ignoring completely the other issues I raised - women in the Civil Service, Women in the Dail, Antiquated hair spliiting passing as law on womens bodily rights , the focus is on the one issue you think you can debunk.

    But on that issue I think for now I will stick with the U.N., The EU, The irish Government and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions , thank you very much .
    This sounds like some kind of melt down. There is no discrimination or bias against women in any of these areas.


  • #1893
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    Letter in the Irish Times, Tuesday, Dec 16
    Sir, – Prof Nancy Hopkins (December 10th) writes about “unconscious gender bias” at the top in science. I would argue that by far the most notorious example of gender bias in Irish universities is the existence of a number of women’s and gender studies centres, several of which have existed for more than 20 years and which are overwhelmingly staffed by women. According to the US writer Daphne Patai, they are more concerned with political activism than with scholarship and the pursuit of knowledge. They share a common ideology, central to which is the notion that gender is socially constructed and that biology has little or nothing to do with gender; openness to any challenge to this ideology or to criticism appears to be at a minimum. This is all the more extraordinary since science has refuted its central tenet and has shown biology plays an undoubted and perhaps a major role in gender construction.

    An example of how the pretensions of gender studies can be exposed occurred in 2012 when the NIKK Nordic Gender Institute was closed. The decision was made after Norwegian state television had broadcast a documentary in which the unscientific character of the NIKK and its research was exposed. The whole enterprise was based on ideology with no basis in evidence.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gender-bias-and-science-1.2038586

    Today's reply, for what it's worth:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gender-bias-and-science-1.2039861
    Sir, – Further to David Walsh’s letter (December 16th), I fail to see how the existence of a few gender studies centres is an example of “notorious gender bias” when the real figures that show the lack of representation and the biased promotion methods that abound in Irish universities and the rest of Irish society are somehow not notorious at all.

    It is interesting how the elephant in the room can be ignored when it affects women, rather than men. – Yours, etc,

    If anyone wants to reply, the contact details are:
    Email: lettersed@irishtimes.com
    Fax: +353 1 675 8035

    See guidelines for writing to The Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/about-us/contact-us/letters-to-the-editor


  • #1894
    Leeleather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭Leeleather


    marienbad wrote: »
    Not at all , nothing one says will be accepted , as well as ignoring completely the other issues I raised - women in the Civil Service, Women in the Dail, Antiquated hair spliiting passing as law on womens bodily rights , the focus is on the one issue you think you can debunk.

    But on that issue I think for now I will stick with the U.N., The EU, The irish Government and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions , thank you very much .

    What do you mean by "bodily rights"?

    Women have the exact same "bodily rights" as men.


  • #1895
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,521 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Leeleather wrote: »
    What do you mean by "bodily rights"?

    Women have the exact same "bodily rights" as men.

    I think she means abortion.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1896
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I think she means abortion.
    I think we've successfully established that (s)he's all sound bites, meme's and no substance. Kinda like a National Enquirer headline.


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  • #1897
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,521 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Zulu wrote: »
    I think we've successfully established that (s)he's all sound bites, meme's and no substance. Kinda like a National Enquirer headline.

    Usage of the word "patriarchy" should really have made this obvious to me.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1898
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Piliger wrote: »
    This sounds like some kind of melt down.
    Zulu wrote: »
    I think we've successfully established that (s)he's all sound bites, meme's and no substance. Kinda like a National Enquirer headline.

    NO more of these kind of posts please. They add nothing, are unnecessarily baiting, are sailing way too close to the wind of attacking the poster and are well below the standard we try to set for the forum. Any more in a similar vein by anyone will get more than a warning. Thanks.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1899
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Leeleather wrote: »
    What do you mean by "bodily rights"?

    Women have the exact same "bodily rights" as men.
    On this point MB has good reasons to say there is a disparity there around reproduction, particularly in Ireland. Abortion is the obvious one, but more subtle differences are also in play. EG Childless man of 30 walks into a doctors office and asks to have his "tubes tied", chances are very high he'll be accommodated. Childless 30 year old woman who wants the same? Good luck with that.

    While there are clearly anti male biases going on and often with all sorts of moral panic attached in both the extreme and mainstream of modern feminism, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore areas where it does most certainly go the other way. Indeed it would be ironic to do so, as many of those concerned with men's rights aim that accusation at feminism, often with good reason. Just too much of a touch of pots calling kettles black for me.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1900
    Jeremiah Short Teenager
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Jeremiah Short Teenager


    Anonymous letter to the Guardian regarding the topic of false accusations of rape.

    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/29/letter-to-girl-accused-me-of-rape?CMP=fb_gu
    Rape is an abhorrent crime and every victim should be able to report it. But false accusations of rape are abhorrent too, and the victims too easily forgotten. Not only do false allegations damage the life of the victim but they also contribute to the trivialisation of the seriousness of genuine sexual violence.


  • #1901
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,656 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Wibbs wrote: »
    On this point MB has good reasons to say there is a disparity there around reproduction, particularly in Ireland. Abortion is the obvious one, but more subtle differences are also in play. EG Childless man of 30 walks into a doctors office and asks to have his "tubes tied", chances are very high he'll be accommodated. Childless 30 year old woman who wants the same? Good luck with that.

    While there are clearly anti male biases going on and often with all sorts of moral panic attached in both the extreme and mainstream of modern feminism, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore areas where it does most certainly go the other way. Indeed it would be ironic to do so, as many of those concerned with men's rights aim that accusation at feminism, often with good reason. Just too much of a touch of pots calling kettles black for me.

    I wonder how many people would agree to give the father an opt out right? At present both men and womens right to chose ends at conception but if abortion becomes an option for woman shouldnt men get the right to be not financially liable for a choice made by someone else?


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  • #1902
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,521 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I womder how many people would agree to give the father an opt out right? At present both men and womens right to chose ends at conception but if abortion becomes an option for woman shouldnt men get the right to be not financially liable for a choice made by someone else?

    The constitution is in very bad need of being updated with this being one of the underpinning issues. I'm in favour of abortion for women but there should be a legal "abortion" for men whereby they can absolve themselves of their rights and responsibilities.

    Unfortunately, today's excuse of a Men's Rights movement couldn't organise a nun shoot in a nunnery so I don't expect to see anything like this for a long, long time if ever.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1903
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I womder how many people would agree to give the father an opt out right? At present both men and womens right to chose ends at conception but if abortion becomes an option for woman shouldnt men get the right to be not financially liable for a choice made by someone else?
    In an ideal world... However it would be a real minefield to navigate such opt out rights.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1904
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,521 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    In an ideal world... However it would be a real minefield to navigate such opt out rights.

    Are there any politicians who'd even acknowledge the concept? I was asked by a certain councillor if men can experience sexism given that most CEOs and MPs are men.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1905
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,656 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Wibbs wrote: »
    In an ideal world... However it would be a real minefield to navigate such opt out rights.

    The state would have to pay in his absence. So we wont see it happen as there is no way they would agree to it.

    It does highlight peoples double standards though as the most common answers are 'he already made his choice' or 'thats just biology'. Which is the same answers pro life people make against women having the choice.


  • #1906
    Leeleather
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭Leeleather


    Wibbs wrote: »
    On this point MB has good reasons to say there is a disparity there around reproduction, particularly in Ireland. Abortion is the obvious one, but more subtle differences are also in play. EG Childless man of 30 walks into a doctors office and asks to have his "tubes tied", chances are very high he'll be accommodated. Childless 30 year old woman who wants the same? Good luck with that.

    While there are clearly anti male biases going on and often with all sorts of moral panic attached in both the extreme and mainstream of modern feminism, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore areas where it does most certainly go the other way. Indeed it would be ironic to do so, as many of those concerned with men's rights aim that accusation at feminism, often with good reason. Just too much of a touch of pots calling kettles black for me.

    If women can't have their "tubes tied" then that is a valid case of discrimination. I see no evidence of "bodily rights" being removed. A man can't walk into a clinic and demand that he has his liver removed.


  • #1907
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    "bodily rights" "patriarchy"

    Like how a male has the right to have his genitals mutilated against his will but a female doesn't.


  • #1908
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭iptba


    Wibbs wrote: »
    On this point MB has good reasons to say there is a disparity there around reproduction, particularly in Ireland. Abortion is the obvious one, but more subtle differences are also in play. EG Childless man of 30 walks into a doctors office and asks to have his "tubes tied", chances are very high he'll be accommodated. Childless 30 year old woman who wants the same? Good luck with that.
    Regarding getting one's tubes tied, the procedures are not exactly the same: the operation is much simpler, and can be done as an outpatient, for a man. Indeed, with couples, I've heard it said than there can be more pressure on the man to have the procedure as it is less invasive.


  • #1909
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I wonder how many people would agree to give the father an opt out right? At present both men and womens right to chose ends at conception but if abortion becomes an option for woman shouldnt men get the right to be not financially liable for a choice made by someone else?

    a mans choice is made when he has unprotected sex.


  • #1910
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    PucaMama wrote: »
    a mans choice is made when he has unprotected sex.
    So is a womans, but the man has far fewer choices beyond that point. That's before we get into the realms of "forgetting" to take the pill etc.

    I don't mean one night stands either. A bloke would have to be daft beyond credence to go sans rubber Jonathan on a one nighter on the say so of a complete stranger, a complete stranger who has no issue with that. Major red flag.

    I mean in relationships, more long term type affairs, where condoms may be dispensed with. Sure contraception isn't foolproof by any means, though I do find it interesting that the injection/implant fails at a significantly lower rate than the pill.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1911
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    PucaMama wrote: »
    a mans choice is made when he has unprotected sex.

    Would you say the same of a woman? Or are you simply firing out one-liners?


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  • #1912
    DoYouEvenLift
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭DoYouEvenLift


    PucaMama wrote: »
    a mans choice is made when he has unprotected sex.


    Even when intoxicated? If so, what would be your opinions on women who have drunken sex only to go on to regret it and accuse the man, who was also drunk, of rape? You surely also think that they made their choice?


  • #1913
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    PucaMama wrote: »
    a mans choice is made when he has unprotected sex.
    Any dispensations for a split condom?


  • #1914
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    PucaMama wrote: »
    a mans choice is made when he has unprotected sex.
    Surely it is the couple having unprotected sex rather than just the man?
    Are we saying that the woman should have to power to make the decision about the next 20 years of the mans life?
    I have heard the opt out muted before a few times. Will never happen though as it would be rife with fraud and the state wouldn't be willing to pick up the tab.


  • #1915
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Usage of the word "patriarchy" should really have made this obvious to me.

    In the interests of equal rights, the word patriarchy should treated the same as the fem**** word which is banned and any user is banned for using it.


  • #1916
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'm in favour of abortion for women but there should be a legal "abortion" for men whereby they can absolve themselves of their rights and responsibilities.

    Unfortunately, today's excuse of a Men's Rights movement couldn't organise a nun shoot in a nunnery so I don't expect to see anything like this for a long, long time if ever.
    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I wonder how many people would agree to give the father an opt out right? At present both men and womens right to chose ends at conception but if abortion becomes an option for woman shouldnt men get the right to be not financially liable for a choice made by someone else?

    Really ? Should they ? On what grounds should men get an opt out ?

    Do you also believe that after buying a house by taking out a mortgage .. people should be able to throw their hands in the air and 'opt out' ? leaving their partner to pay ? Is this your view with every contract, verbal and written ? Because I find this a rather bizarre demand.


  • #1917
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Piliger wrote: »
    In the interests of equal rights, the word patriarchy should treated the same as the fem**** word which is banned and any user is banned for using it.

    Actually, that's not a bad suggestion. What say you mods? One for the charter? It would, at the very least, force users to articulate their thoughts rather then resort to banal, meaningless soundbites whilst doing the equivalent of a 'hit and run' on the forum.


  • #1918
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭iptba


    Lemming wrote: »
    Actually, that's not a bad suggestion. What say you mods? One for the charter? It would, at the very least, force users to articulate their thoughts rather then resort to banal, meaningless soundbites whilst doing the equivalent of a 'hit and run' on the forum.
    There's a feedback thread that this could be posted to. Zulu even made some suggestions in passing: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93483597&postcount=76


  • #1919
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    iptba wrote: »
    There's a feedback thread that this could be posted to. Zulu even made some suggestions in passing: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93483597&postcount=76

    Just in the process of making a post there now :)


  • #1920
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,521 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Piliger wrote: »
    Really ? Should they ? On what grounds should men get an opt out ?

    Do you also believe that after buying a house by taking out a mortgage .. people should be able to throw their hands in the air and 'opt out' ? leaving their partner to pay ? Is this your view with every contract, verbal and written ? Because I find this a rather bizarre demand.

    Well, taking out a mortgage is a completely deliberate process. Getting someone pregnant can happen even when protection is used. I just don't like the idea that 20 years of a man's life can be dramatically affected by the whims of the mother in this situation.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #1921
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Well, taking out a mortgage is a completely deliberate process. Getting someone pregnant can happen even when protection is used. I just don't like the idea that 20 years of a man's life can be dramatically affected by the whims of the mother in this situation.

    What whims ? you haven't made any case whatsoever that women get pregnant on a whim. None. You've made no case why all a man should be able to do is ... wash his hands and walk away, leaving one or more kids stranded with no father and no financial support.

    And I am a men's rights advocate.


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