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Socialist Party's policies

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  • #512
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    jank wrote: »
    The closest he could come was the Albania.... says it all to be honest.

    There are a handful of hardline Stalinists in the country who might agree with you - the Socialist Party wouldn't - so - try harder.


  • #513
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The socialist party only uses populism as in; we don't believe people should pay for this or that and if there is a protest going, you can be sure the socialist party is there.

    Again the socialist party has no workable policies that belong to a free society.

    The Socialist Party argues that people (everybody) should pay tax according to their ability.

    You are partially correct in one aspect - the Socialist Party would argue that it is not possible to have 'workable' policies in a capitalist society (what you erroneously claim is a 'free society') because no matter what policies you implement the contradictions of capitalism will ultimately render such policies unworkable. It is precisely for this reason that the Socialist Party campaigns for the overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.


  • #514
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    VinLieger wrote: »
    do you have a contribution to make to that discussion at all or are you just happy popping out from under your bridge every so often??

    If this thread was functioning in a concrete fashion discussing the policies of the Socialist Party I would actively participate - but this thread is nothing more than an opportunity for a rant against the Socialist Party. On the odd occasion when someone has made anything approaching a coherent argument I have responded in kind.


  • #515
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    The Socialist Party argues that people (everybody) should pay tax according to their ability.

    You are partially correct in one aspect - the Socialist Party would argue that it is not possible to have 'workable' policies in a capitalist society (what you erroneously claim is a 'free society') because no matter what policies you implement the contradictions of capitalism will ultimately render such policies unworkable. It is precisely for this reason that the Socialist Party campaigns for the overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.

    A "socialist economy" will never work. It is stupid to think it will. And even more stupid to want to try because of the damage it would cause


  • #516
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    garhjw wrote: »
    A "socialist economy" will never work. It is stupid to think it will. And even more stupid to want to try because of the damage it would cause

    You are entitled to your opinion - however - consider this - the beloved free market capitalist economy is the one that isn't woprking - it is the beloved system of free market capitalism has caused massive damage to the lives of 90% of the people in this country and it is the beloved system of free market capitalism that is driving living standards, living conditions and working conditions back to the 1930s.


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  • #517
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    You are entitled to your opinion - however - consider this - the beloved free market capitalist economy is the one that isn't woprking - it is the beloved system of free market capitalism has caused massive damage to the lives of 90% of the people in this country and it is the beloved system of free market capitalism that is driving living standards, living conditions and working conditions back to the 1930s.

    Like I said STUPID to think it could be workable. Your argument above is nonsensical


  • #518
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    garhjw wrote: »
    Like I said STUPID to think it could be workable. Your argument above is nonsensical

    It is amazing how the right wing hacks on here think that the truth is nonsensical :rolleyes:


  • #519
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    It is amazing how the right wing hacks on here think that the truth is nonsensical :rolleyes:

    Yes I'm a right wing hack commie.

    So where does your utopian socialist economy currently work?


  • #520
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    garhjw wrote: »
    Yes I'm a right wing hack commie.

    Yep - and you actually think that calling me a 'commie' is some sort of insult
    So where does your utopian socialist economy currently work?

    who said anything about a 'utopian' economy - and maybe you could point to someplace where your utopian capitalism currently works.


  • #521
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    Answer the question


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  • #522
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    jank wrote: »
    When pushed on what is a socialist party or a socialist government Paul Murphy and Co. cannot even name one government in Europe that was governed by a Socialist Party. The French socialist party are not socialist, the Swedish Socialist party are not socialist, Sinn Fein are not Socialist. The closest he could come was the Albania.... says it all to be honest.

    Or it could be that those who presume "socialism" automatically means full communism being implemented are and always have been wrong? :rolleyes:


  • #523
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    The Socialist Party argues that people (everybody) should pay tax according to their ability.

    You are partially correct in one aspect - the Socialist Party would argue that it is not possible to have 'workable' policies in a capitalist society (what you erroneously claim is a 'free society') because no matter what policies you implement the contradictions of capitalism will ultimately render such policies unworkable. It is precisely for this reason that the Socialist Party campaigns for the overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. I mean, I laugh at how ridiculous it is, but I stop short of a full-blown guffaw when I realise that there are people out there who seriously believe this. The fact that people want to repeat the devastating mistakes of the 20th century expecting different results is a genuinely scary thought.

    No doubt I'll get some spiel about how capitalism causes war, famine etc. but the fact is that each country that set about creating an egalitarian paradise ended up killing a staggering number of its own people. The figures speak for themselves:

    65 million in the People's Republic of China
    20 million in the Soviet Union
    2 million in Cambodia
    2 million in North Korea
    1.7 million in Ethiopia
    1.5 million in Afghanistan
    1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
    1 million in Vietnam
    150,000 in Latin America mainly Cuba
    10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."

    Of course this was communism, not real socialism, and this time it's gonna be different because, well, I can't say why but you'll just have to take my word for it. It's not going to spiral into a system of grinding poverty and brutal oppression, okay?


  • #524
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    Soldie wrote: »
    I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. I mean, I laugh at how ridiculous it is, but I stop short of a full-blown guffaw when I realise that there are people out there who seriously believe this. The fact that people want to repeat the devastating mistakes of the 20th century expecting different results is a genuinely scary thought.

    No doubt I'll get some spiel about how capitalism causes war, famine etc. but the fact is that each country that set about creating an egalitarian paradise ended up killing a staggering number of its own people. The figures speak for themselves:

    65 million in the People's Republic of China
    20 million in the Soviet Union
    2 million in Cambodia
    2 million in North Korea
    1.7 million in Ethiopia
    1.5 million in Afghanistan
    1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
    1 million in Vietnam
    150,000 in Latin America mainly Cuba
    10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."

    Of course this was communism, not real socialism, and this time it's gonna be different because, well, I can't say why but you'll just have to take my word for it. It's not going to spiral into a system of grinding poverty and brutal oppression, okay?

    And I could list numbers for all the people who died under capitalism and are still dying today - and I am sure you would claim that it is not 'real' capitalism.

    Everything you write about Stalinism could be equally (if not more) applied to capitalism.

    Socialism at its heart is about democracy - without democracy you cannot have socialism. But there is one other key component - a majority of the population must be working class, Russia post-1917 degenerated because Russia was 90% feudal and the remaining 10% working class were pretty much atomised by the White (and western) provoked civil war. Without a workers revolution in an advanced capitalist country it was inevitable that the Russian revolution would degenerate - and Lenin outlined why this would happen. Indeed Lenin demanded the sacking of Stalin and the removal of the bureaucracy that developed around him because of the threat they posed to the revolutionary process in Russia.

    In the modern world the aspect of society that led to the degeneration of the Russian revolution are no longer a factor. There is a clear class division within society between the 1% and the 99% with 90% of the population encompassing the working class.


  • #525
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    You are entitled to your opinion - however - consider this - the beloved free market capitalist economy is the one that isn't woprking - it is the beloved system of free market capitalism has caused massive damage to the lives of 90% of the people in this country and it is the beloved system of free market capitalism that is driving living standards, living conditions and working conditions back to the 1930s.

    How do you expect people to back your socialist revolution when you can't even explain how your proposed system would work? When anyone asks, they're met with the usual rhetoric railing against the evils of the current system. Save the copy and paste job. Answer the question if you want to be taken seriously.

    I know the score. You turn a blind eye to historical precedent and think we could have a proper socialist system without the dictators and the killing. You call it a "democratically planned socialised economy". Hate to break it to you, but the dictators and the killing is part and parcel of the system you're proposing. It needs it in order to hobble along before imploding. The thing is, even the theory behind your dream world was debunked almost a hundred years ago! It's completely unworkable on a macro level.

    For what it's worth, it's amusing to hear Socialist Party supporters calling other political parties populist. The Socialist Party is about as populist as it gets for me. About as substantial as a prawn cracker.


  • #526
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #527
    MightyMandarin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,723 ✭✭✭MightyMandarin


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    There is a clear class division within society between the 1% and the 99% with 90% of the population encompassing the working class.

    I assume you don't have any stats to back this up because, like most arguments for socialism, rhetoric is valued higher than facts. Another thing that really bugs me about the Socialist Party's reps and their supporters is their constant referrals to the 1917 Revolution in Russia. It's a nice story and all, but there are literally zero comparisons to be drawn from Ireland in 2014 and Russia in 1917. The people aren't starving on the streets, the country isn't in a World War, and we aren't ruled by a dictatorial Tsar.


  • #528
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    Socialism at its heart is about democracy - without democracy you cannot have socialism.

    http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=738

    I let sort countries by democracy index and see how many are communist ones and how many are capitalist ones at the top of the list.


  • #529
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    The Socialist Party argues that people (everybody) should pay tax according to their ability.

    You are partially correct in one aspect - the Socialist Party would argue that it is not possible to have 'workable' policies in a capitalist society (what you erroneously claim is a 'free society') because no matter what policies you implement the contradictions of capitalism will ultimately render such policies unworkable. It is precisely for this reason that the Socialist Party campaigns for the overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.

    Tell me one instance where this has worked? The only way to centrally 'plan' the economy is by forcing every Irish citizen into this model, thereby one has to implement an authoritarian regime. You do know that the Irish Constitution protects private property, do you propose to do away with this, I presume via a referendum or do you plan to implement a coup?


  • #530
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    There are a handful of hardline Stalinists in the country who might agree with you - the Socialist Party wouldn't - so - try harder.

    Hey, this is what Paul Murphy stated on the Pat Kenny show, maybe you should have words with your comrade in arms, if you are unhappy about this.


  • #531
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    Bob24 wrote: »
    http://democracyranking.org/?page_id=738

    I let sort countries by democracy index and see how many are communist ones and how many are capitalist ones at the top of the list.

    Capitalist 'democracy' - sure go ahead.


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  • #532
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Or it could be that those who presume "socialism" automatically means full communism being implemented are and always have been wrong? :rolleyes:

    This is from the horses Mouth. Paul Murphy and co himself is on record that no party in Europe are actually Socialist, unlike them. He said this on the Pat Kenny show last week. So it is actually Paul Murphy, Ruth Coppinger and their like that are affiliating themselves with Communism more so than anyone else...


  • #533
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    jank wrote: »
    Hey, this is what Paul Murphy stated on the Pat Kenny show, maybe you should have words with your comrade in arms, if you are unhappy about this.


    What are you on - are you claiming that Paul Murphy said that Albania inder Hoxha was a socialist country?


  • #534
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    jank wrote: »
    Tell me one instance where this has worked?
    It hasn't because there has never been the basis to implement it.
    The only way to centrally 'plan' the economy is by forcing every Irish citizen into this model, thereby one has to implement an authoritarian regime.
    Who said anything about 'centrally' planning the economy under socialism? Its not my fault that you are taking your cues about socialism from the Stalinist regimes of the past.
    You do know that the Irish Constitution protects private property, do you propose to do away with this, I presume via a referendum or do you plan to implement a coup?
    yes I do - not a coup - not a refendum but a revolution that changes the economic basis of society and leads to implementing active democratic participation of the population rather than the sham of democracy that is representaitve parliamentarianism.


  • #535
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    jank wrote: »
    This is from the horses Mouth. Paul Murphy and co himself is on record that no party in Europe are actually Socialist, unlike them. He said this on the Pat Kenny show last week. So it is actually Paul Murphy, Ruth Coppinger and their like that are affiliating themselves with Communism more so than anyone else...

    What Paul Murphy said was that there was no country in Europe that was socialist - not that there were no parties in Europe that were socialist. For example the Fench Socialist Party is a former social democratic, now right-wing neo-liberal party - and the same applies to all the former social democracies in Europe including the LP here.


  • #536
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    What are you on - are you claiming that Paul Murphy said that Albania inder Hoxha was a socialist country?

    In a way yes, as it was the closest government they could identify with as no other EU country had or has a 'Socialist' party in power. So your not 'communist', your not mainstream (French, Swedish, German etc..) socialist either.. so what are you. Lots of empty rethoric where any question asked of you, is just met by 'Capitalism is bad, mkay'

    Outline your plan, you have an audience now so use it.

    How do you propose to implement your centrally planned economy in an Irish context. Does this involve the confiscation of private property like farmland and factories so they can be planned themselves?


  • #537
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    It hasn't because there has never been the basis to implement it.

    How convenient.
    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    Who said anything about 'centrally' planning the economy under socialism? Its not my fault that you are taking your cues about socialism from the Stalinist regimes of the past.

    Eh, you did
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=93440099#post93440099
    verthrow of capitalism and the establishment of a democratically planned socialised economy.
    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    yes I do - not a coup - not a refendum but a revolution that changes the economic basis of society and leads to implementing active democratic participation of the population rather than the sham of democracy that is representaitve parliamentarianism.

    So how will this revolution come about and what will it look like? Give me some nuts and bolts. Say the top 5 things that would happen and how they come about.


  • #538
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    If this thread was functioning in a concrete fashion discussing the policies of the Socialist Party I would actively participate - but this thread is nothing more than an opportunity for a rant against the Socialist Party. On the odd occasion when someone has made anything approaching a coherent argument I have responded in kind.


    The problem with the thread is that there are no socialist policies of the Socialist Party. They are a weird mix of communist (nationalise Dell and have the workers run the companies), anti-environmentalist (no bin charges, no water charges) and right-wing (no property taxes) policies.

    If the Socialist Party actually had some socialist policies, it would be straightforward to discuss them.


  • #539
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    jank wrote: »
    In a way yes, as it was the closest government they could identify with as no other EU country had or has a 'Socialist' party in power. So your not 'communist', your not mainstream (French, Swedish, German etc..) socialist either.. so what are you. Lots of empty rethoric where any question asked of you, is just met by 'Capitalism is bad, mkay'
    Albania under Hoxha was a backward, semi-feudal dictatorship run by a bunch of hardline Stalinist isolationists.
    Outline your plan, you have an audience now so use it.
    In all honesty - do you consider the most of the people who frequent b.ie as an 'audience' ? And to satisfy your curiosity I want to see a democratic socialist society based on a democratically planned socialised economy operated for the needs of the population rather than in the financial interests of the elites.
    How do you propose to implement your centrally planned economy in an Irish context. Does this involve the confiscation of private property like farmland and factories so they can be planned themselves?
    Any form of economic planning requires control over the main sectors of the economy - this is not rocket science nor is it confined to the planning of a socialised economy - when necessary the capitalist elites have and do socialise sectors of the economy to protect their economic interests (as demonstrated by the recent nationalisation/socialisation of the banking debts).

    Specifically what would be needed for the democratic planning of a socialised economy would be taking the key sectors of the economy into public ownership - Energy, transportation, communications, natural resources, financial services etc. You cannot plan what you do not control and you cannot cool what you do not own. In terms of the Irish economy you are probably talking about no more than 100 companies that would be needed to be taken into public ownership. There would be no necessity to nationalise farmland (although some farmland owned by major corporations would be nationalised as part of the wider programme of public ownership).

    Planning has nothing to do with laying out in minute detail every aspect of an economy - it has to do with adapting the economy to the needs of the population and facilitating democratic input from the population of the state as an integral part of that process.


  • #540
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    And I could list numbers for all the people who died under capitalism and are still dying today - and I am sure you would claim that it is not 'real' capitalism.

    Everything you write about Stalinism could be equally (if not more) applied to capitalism.

    Go ahead. But please note that I expect you to form a genuine link between the outcome you're alluding to and how capitalism has supposedly caused it. No rhetoric.

    Socialism in practice involves bonkers stuff like building a wall to keep your citizens in and shooting any would-be escapees.


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  • #541
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    jank wrote: »
    How convenient.
    Capitalism didn't exist until feudalism was overthrown and that didn't happen until the material basis for the establishment existed - nothing to do with convenience and everything to do with the material nature of society.

    Eh, you did
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=93440099#post93440099
    And he was me thinking you could comprehend the difference between a 'democratically planned socialised economy' and a 'centrally planned economy' - you can have and have had a centrally planned economy under capitalism - you cannot have a democratically planned socialised economy without socialism.
    So how will this revolution come about and what will it look like? Give me some nuts and bolts. Say the top 5 things that would happen and how they come about.
    there is no way of predicting how a revolution could come about - revolutions happen all the time and all have different triggers and different processes. The material conditions for socialist revolution have existed for a hundred years - and a revolution could happen at any time. One factor is crucial - A mass party of working class people based on socialist principles.

    After that it comes down to how working class people would determine what was necessary through active participate in workers and community councils.


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