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Insulation specification thoughts

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Comments

  • #32
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 43,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BarryM3 wrote: »
    I understand the principles Syd, ultimately the question I am asking - and no one has really answered yet is this:

    Putting thermal mass argument aside for a moment (as it doesn't suit my lifestyle)-are you saying I would be better off without insulated boards than with them?

    I totally accept the thermal mass principle. My current rent a house has crappy insulation and the coldness coming off the walls is really noticeable.

    There seems to be an undertone here that if you don't agree with it you don't understand it - which I think is unfair at best...

    Being vague and flippant is not big and it's not clever either!

    firstly, ive been anything but vague and flippant in this thread, ive posted measured and lengthy explanations.

    secondly, the reason i said im out is because you seem to be asking the same question over and over expecting someone to give you the answer you want rather than the answer you need.

    my very first line said
    internal dry lining on a new house build is a bad specification.
    and i still stand by that opinion, and other posters here have backed that up.

    im not going to go over the reason its a bad specification again.

    so good luck with the build.


  • #33
    BarryM3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 230 ✭✭BarryM3


    With respect Syd, you said that you believe that thermal mass is the way forward, I've said - that aside (due to legitimate lifestyle reasons) why is insulated board bad in itself and you are repeating the same thing.... ie Thermal Mass is better. From what I can see you are saying it's a bad idea for no reason other than you think thermal mass is better, bit of a weak argument to be fair!

    It's like saying a Ferrari is a better car than a Fiesta so no-one should ever buy a Fiesta. Well it depends whether you are going to the shops or to a racetrack.

    Anyway, I'll revert to the spec of the BER assessor I've employed and go back into my box and never question anything/anyone in here again!


  • #34
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 43,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BarryM3 wrote: »
    With respect Syd, you said that you believe that thermal mass is the way forward, I've said - that aside (due to legitimate lifestyle reasons) why is insulated board bad in itself and you are repeating the same thing.... ie Thermal Mass is better. From what I can see you are saying it's a bad idea for no reason other than you think thermal mass is better, bit of a weak argument to be fair!

    It's like saying a Ferrari is a better car than a Fiesta so no-one should ever buy a Fiesta. Well it depends whether you are going to the shops or to a racetrack.

    Anyway, I'll revert to the spec of the BER assessor I've employed and go back into my box and never question anything/anyone in here again!

    with respect as well barry, in my post here,
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93309790&postcount=10
    where i gave the reasons its bad specification, i included three reasons, not just thermal mass.

    did you just not see these reasons, not understand them or just ignore them?

    so, as you can imagine, im seeing this as you having a myopic view on this and are wanting someone to say go ahead with what you have, and to be fair, antiskeptic is saying as much, although with a very loose grasp of the science in my opinion. Id be of the opposite view, for reasons ive said.


  • #35
    BarryM3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 230 ✭✭BarryM3


    The 3 reasons you said were (paraphrasing)

    Thermal Mass - As we've covered - this does not suit my lifestyle. We are away for long periods and lead a very non timetabled life.

    Air Tightness - to which I replied this without an answer
    Barry wrote:
    In relation to the stop/start of the drylining - I must be missing something. As we will have all external walls wet plastered internally also, then the adding of the insulated drylining - even if done badly - is a positive surely?

    Continuity of insulation - I'm currently researching it and it seems that if detailed correctly and with sufficient ventilation it's not much of an issue

    So, I seen them all, understood them (I think) and also replied to them citing my own situation and wonderings... So of the 3, 1 is simply saying that Thermal Mass is better which isn't an argument against insulated board in itself, 2 is the air tightness element which I don't see can make a difference as I am not doing any less work in achieving this just by adding an insulated board later. I really don't see the correlation here? I will be doing an air tightness test before any boarding goes up - lets say I get a 1 at this point, how can adding the insulated board days/weeks later affect this result? Maybe it can.... I dunno, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

    I most certainly don't have a myopic view on it, I would love to be shown in a clear and concise way why I don't have to spend '000s on the stuff but I haven't seen a sufficient argument put forward yet to help me reach that decision.


  • #36
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 43,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BarryM3 wrote: »
    ..... I would love to be shown in a clear and concise way why I don't have to spend '000s on the stuff......

    youve some onto a public free website looking for advice as to how to save 000's ?????


    i love your optimism

    anyway... im out.


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  • #37
    BarryM3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 230 ✭✭BarryM3


    No, I've paid/am paying a host of professionals and also done my own research of which this is one aspect.

    In any case - as I thought - it appears once again you are unable or unwilling to answer specific questions other than 'thermal mass GOOD, insulated board BAD'.


  • #38
    beyondpassive
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭beyondpassive


    When looking at a modern house its better to think less about the house you live in and more about your going to live in.

    Its not a question of Mass v thermal resistance, you need to have a balance of both. Overheating in summer is where mass can be useful. A two foot stone wall has mass but little thermal capacity, while a double insulated wall has a good u-value but little thermal stability.

    Attached is a photo of my renovation. Note the heat loss at the first floor and where the partitions occur.


  • #39
    ml100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 404 ✭✭ml100


    ferryman35 wrote: »
    the quoted u-value for 150mm full fill well meets the regulations, so if you have a good installation, then you should expect a good result. Anecdotally is harder to quantify.

    At the end of your project, all the components of your build have to function as a system, and it is how you combine the different elements that will determine your success. Insulation is only part of the equation - you also need to keep airtightness, ventilation and the heating system in mind.

    The best demonstration I saw of thermal mass in action was after the sun had set during the summer evenings....you could feel the heat radiating back from the blocks in the cooler night air. It works....

    In a new house that I saw, with insulated board on the internal walls and hole in the window vents, the tiniest fire had heated the sitting room so hot and stuffy that we couldn't stay in it. Yet a part of the house that didn't have heating on was freezing - too cold to stand in without your jacket.

    You won't reduce the insulation value of your house but you will make it a whole lot more comfortable......and you don't have he risk of condensation & mould.

    And your second question.....yes you can drill deeper holes and fix to the masonry behind, but then if you're fixing something heavy you should be using spacer blocks (don't see those in too many places!?.....you need special fixings for lights, pictures, hanging shelves, more complicated for airtightness, probably wiring if its done right and fitted furniture.

    There are places where insulated boards are a very good solution but I think there are better options for new builds.


    Hi Ferryman35,

    how did the full fill cavity board work out, we are considering it for our new build, my spec will be 100mm external leaf, 150mm cavity with full fill board and 100mm inner leaf block. We will be installing ASHP and MHRV.

    I haven't got any calculations done yet but my architect doesn't think we will need any internal dry lining, I guess I'm wondering if it would be better to add it at this stage as when we were looking at pumping the cavity he was recommending 62.5mm internal dry lining or does it not add that much?


    I've noticed the full fill board being used on a few sites that I've passed in Dublin, it seems to be getting used more now.

    /ml100


  • #40
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 43,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    dont go near internal dry lining!!!

    if your going for ASHP im assuming UFH as well.... add the MHRV into this and you need decent thermal mass to regulate and maintain temps in the house.

    150 full fill will give you a u value of approx 0.13, thats definitely good enough for modern builds. You might end up having to include a PV cell or two to reach the renewable requirement


  • #41
    ml100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 404 ✭✭ml100


    thanks syd, yes we are going with UFH (upstairs and downstairs) and 2 stoves downstairs so hopefully that will cover the renewable requirement, if not whats a better option: PV cell or solar panel ? and then there's the windows to research :(


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  • #42
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 43,202 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ml100 wrote: »
    thanks syd, yes we are going with UFH (upstairs and downstairs) and 2 stoves downstairs so hopefully that will cover the renewable requirement, if not whats a better option: PV cell or solar panel ? and then there's the windows to research :(

    bang for buck its the pv cells


  • #43
    tonc76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    I'm about to begin a renovation of a detached rural house built in the 1970s.

    The house is structurally sound but need to be gutted and modernised save for double glazing windows and doors that were installed 6 years ago. At present I need to install ventilation and insulation as none exist and will be installing a new heating system, rewiring etc.

    Can I get opinions on insulation as follows:
    • External
    • Fill cavity and dryline
    • Dryline only with a view to filing cavity next year if needed

    I understand that from a cost point of view the above are €€€, €€ & € in order.

    What are the main advantages of one over the others?

    All opinions appreciated.

    Thanks


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