Fury v Chisora II

Hachiko · 30-11-2014 09:25PM

Chisora vs Pac, Based on what I saw last night Pac would make light work of him. I cant believe this is the standard of heavyweight boxing in the year 2014. As for Fury, the only thing going for him is his height. As a boxer he is just overweight flab that flukes to victory, he even said so himself I believe.

supersean1999 · 30-11-2014 09:30PM

Hachiko wrote: »

Your just a bit to obvious. Bye now

Mantis Toboggan · 30-11-2014 11:14PM

Nothing too flabby about this lad, sure he's a ladies man

megadodge · 30-11-2014 11:28PM

Big Ears wrote: »

I have to say whether Joshua may be ready or not now, it's not the approach to take. There's lessons to be learned from David Price, who was an excellent amateur who medalled at the Olympics, won Gold at the Commonwealth games, is 6'8 and a massive puncher. He turns pro, looks to have an excellent jab, is controlling his opposition easily and sparking most of them in a couple of rounds.
It was widely believed by many that he was the biggest threat to Wlad out there and that a win over Tony Thompson would be a formality.
Price had already disposed of big Heavyweights in Tom Dallas and Audley Harrison, and with handling his opposition so easily already sure a skilled and big Heavyweight like Thompson wouldn't be too much trouble either ?

We all know what happened to Price, it was actually such a big upset he was still a favourite in the rematch, but barring maybe Bakhtov, Joshua hasn't beaten anyone to the level Skelton, Harrison, Sexton and McDermott were at that time (he did beat an even older SKelton), and as far as I'm aware he hasn't beat anyone over 6'3. Bakhtov, the best guy he's faced is a mere 5'11 1/2, so how do we know he's capable of beating a good quality 6'5/6'6 Heavyweight, when he's never faced either a good quality heavyweight or a tall Heavyweight ?

Also the fact he was Olympic Gold medallist isn't that relevant, so was Audley Harrison, only Harrison actually deserved his. Joshua deserved his Silver at the World's, but as I mentioned in another thread recently he had his head boxed off against the Cuban Savon in the first round of the Olympics and still got the decision.
Kevin Johnson is an excellent next fight for him, a good learning fight and will tell us a bit more about him. But I really don't think you could contemplate putting him in with a top 5 Heavyweight right now.

As regards what a couple of people have said about Heiland beating BJS, it's very unlikely. Heiland is a good fighter but was very flattered by the Macklin fight. He looks terrific when a guy stands there with him and allows him to tee off but he struggles with lateral movement and fighters darting in and out quite badly. Macklin laid on the ropes for half the fight and most of the other half he went back in straight lines. Saunders spins off at angles and most in and out very quickly, his footwork would be a nightmare for Heiland do deal with and Heiland's only chance would be if Saunders tires late on and he sometimes does.

People can react a bit too much to one fight, if you say Spike O'Sullivan's last fight and BJS's from last night you'd say Spike definitely ko's him. But they fought not that long ago and Spike was made to look very pedestrian, could barely lay a glove on him and lost almost every round.

The problem here is you're just not prepared to give Joshua any credit mainly because of the Cuban fight. Using that logic anybody coming out of the amateurs who has had a dodgy decision or two in their favour (who hasn't?) has to be seriously doubted. How then did Riddick Bowe manage to win a world title having been stopped (albeit slightly prematurely) and dominated in his Olympic final? Or Mayweather win titles when he was fairly beaten in the Olympic semi-final? Or Mike Tyson manage anything, when he couldn't even win an Olympic qualifier against Henry Tillman, who was extraordinary fortunate himself to 'win' the gold?

I know the older you get as a boxing fan, the more cautious you get when it comes to making predictions, as we've all felt certain fighters were 'sure things' and they ended up being disappointments, but I have to say I can't remember being this excited about a heavyweight prospect since Tyson himself. The reason is not the opposition, it's the manner in which he's beating them. It was the same with Tyson - he beat the usual suspects on his run to the title, but he was doing it in such an impressive way you just knew he was special.

For me Joshua's performance in his losing World Final appearance gives a better indication of his chin and 'fight' than any win in the pros. That Azerbaijani is a massive puncher and he caught Joshua flush a number of times and each time Joshua immediately fought back in a way you could never accuse Audley Harrison of doing. As for David Price, even as an amateur there were always big question marks over his chin and 'fight', which is why I was shocked when he won an Olympic bronze. Fair play to him, he worked very hard for it, but even while he began to look the part before Thompson, those doubts were always lurking and they proved correct. I know anything can happen in heavyweight boxing, but I don't have those doubts about Joshua.

It would be a foolish business move for Fury/Joshua to happen now or even in the next year, but if it did happen soon I don't think it would be easy, but I think eventually Joshua would connect cleanly on Fury's iffy chin and that would be it.

Frankie Lee · 30-11-2014 11:53PM

The only Joshua fight I've seen which would give me a slight doubt about him was the Skelton fight where Skelton was able to get to him a bit. Of course he got the job done in the second round but it was not as impressive as he was against other opponents.

Hachiko · 01-12-2014 12:01AM

clearly this is way too much for me, I need to study this giant lump more to see how he is so much appreciated here.

'Just a big useless lump of lard': Manchester's Tyson Fury claims undefeated record down to 'gypsy curse'
06 Jun 2014 - 05:09PM

Manchester’s British and European boxing champion Tyson Fury has claimed his undefeated record must be down to a ‘gypsy curse’ he’s inflicting on all his opponents.

In a typically brazen interview, Fury’s tongue-in-cheek comments suggest he has 'fluked' his way to an unbeaten record.

The Wythenshawe-born boxer claims the only reason he has not been beaten is due to luck and the mystery ‘curse'.

“I watch my fights back and no wonder people give me stick," Fury told British Boxers. "I’m just useless – just a big useless lump of lard,”

“But wait a minute… I always win."

Fury goes on to say that all his success as an amateur and 22 victories as a pro must be a ‘fluke’. He said: "This man here, the big gyppo from Manchester, the fat bastard.

“It must be the gypsy’s curse that I’m putting on all opponents. It’s why I’m undefeated and why I’m so out of shape and clumsy and slow fat and slow and chinny but I manage to keep winning.

“God is on my side and I have a gypsy’s curse on everybody who faces me.”

T-K-O · 01-12-2014 12:16AM

Give it a rest, will ya.

Henno30 · 01-12-2014 12:24AM

The joy of attending a Frank Warren event

B3sLshtIEAAviNF.jpg:large

Big Ears · 01-12-2014 12:57AM

megadodge wrote: »

The problem here is you're just not prepared to give Joshua any credit mainly because of the Cuban fight. Using that logic anybody coming out of the amateurs who has had a dodgy decision or two in their favour (who hasn't?) has to be seriously doubted. How then did Riddick Bowe manage to win a world title having been stopped (albeit slightly prematurely) and dominated in his Olympic final? Or Mayweather win titles when he was fairly beaten in the Olympic semi-final? Or Mike Tyson manage anything, when he couldn't even win an Olympic qualifier against Henry Tillman, who was extraordinary fortunate himself to 'win' the gold?

I know the older you get as a boxing fan, the more cautious you get when it comes to making predictions, as we've all felt certain fighters were 'sure things' and they ended up being disappointments, but I have to say I can't remember being this excited about a heavyweight prospect since Tyson himself. The reason is not the opposition, it's the manner in which he's beating them. It was the same with Tyson - he beat the usual suspects on his run to the title, but he was doing it in such an impressive way you just knew he was special.

For me Joshua's performance in his losing World Final appearance gives a better indication of his chin and 'fight' than any win in the pros. That Azerbaijani is a massive puncher and he caught Joshua flush a number of times and each time Joshua immediately fought back in a way you could never accuse Audley Harrison of doing. As for David Price, even as an amateur there were always big question marks over his chin and 'fight', which is why I was shocked when he won an Olympic bronze. Fair play to him, he worked very hard for it, but even while he began to look the part before Thompson, those doubts were always lurking and they proved correct. I know anything can happen in heavyweight boxing, but I don't have those doubts about Joshua.

It would be a foolish business move for Fury/Joshua to happen now or even in the next year, but if it did happen soon I don't think it would be easy, but I think eventually Joshua would connect cleanly on Fury's iffy chin and that would be it.

Oh that's not true at all, if someone asked me If Joshua will win a version of a World title at some point all things considered I'd say it's almost a certainty. If someone asked me do I believe he will be the #1 Heavyweight in the World at some point I would say I believe so.
But where a fighter is going and where a fighter is at are two very different things, and tbh as good as Joshua is looking right now against the guys he's fighting, we don't really know where he's at when it comes to fighting the top guys in the division.
Kevin Johnson will give us a much better indication of that as he's been in with a lot of the best and gone the 12.

The only reason I've criticised the Olympic performances is people both here and on other forums constantly use it as a reason for why he's the saviour of the Heavyweight division, that's why I point out that he was extremely lucky to with it, and also that Audley Harrison was an Olympic Gold medalist and that didn't mean great pro success for him.
I agree with you about the World Championships I was actually very impressed with Joshua in them, especially for a fighter with his relatively limited experience.
The fact of the matter is his amateur career is long ended now, and people shouldn't even be mentioning the fact he was the Olympic 'Champion' at this stage. He's an excellent prospect who's developing well and should be judged on that alone.

Ya we all knew about Price's chin tbf, although oddly while that was what let him down in the first Thompson fight, it held up really, really well in the second one. It was the fact he gassed and punched himself out that got him stopped, his head was perfectly clear when it was waved off. He hurt Thompson a couple of times, and had him down for a 9 1/2 count, although that possibly was his undoing in the end as he looked to finish him off and punched himself out.
Price does possess flaws that Joshua (seemingly) doesn't, but Price is a big, tall heavyweight, with an excellent jab, phenomenal power and decent handspeed, but his career is in the gutter now. You can see in both the way he fights and the way he speaks that his belief is gone.
He likely was never bound for greatness, but he could of achieved things and would of potentially been good enough to chin a guy like Stiverne or Wilder.
Maybe got to cash in for big money vs Wlad, but it's all gone now.

All I'm saying is let's not get ahead of ourselves, let Joshua do the business against Johnson at the end of January and then we can properly assess where he's at and who's it's realistic to put him in with next.

walshb · 01-12-2014 09:18AM

megadodge wrote: »

It would be a foolish business move for Fury/Joshua to happen now or even in the next year, but if it did happen soon I don't think it would be easy, but I think eventually Joshua would connect cleanly on Fury's iffy chin and that would be it.

This is what I was meaning. Not saying they should fight next. Just saying that IMO Joshua would be favorite right now.

Tiriel · 01-12-2014 10:34AM

A reminder of the charter round these parts -

7) No Fighter abuse, you can talk facts but calling fighters names etc is just not necessary

Cut out the name calling and personal slants.

FTA69 · 01-12-2014 02:47PM

I for the life of me can't see how people would have Joshua as a favourite. The man has beaten literally nobody only poor journeymen who were half of his size. Like it or not, Fury has beaten quality opposition a number of times and has shown himself to be a much more seasoned and developed fighter. He can box, he's massive, he has heart and we have seen him get off the floor after getting smacked. Joshua has never been remotely tested and yet we're saying he's one of the best heavyweights in the world because he KOd a few Lithuanian journeymen? Ridiculous to be honest.

He's a prospect at the moment, stop overhyping him.

walshb · 01-12-2014 03:21PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I for the life of me can't see how people would have Joshua as a favourite. The man has beaten literally nobody only poor journeymen who were half of his size. Like it or not, Fury has beaten quality opposition a number of times and has shown himself to be a much more seasoned and developed fighter. He can box, he's massive, he has heart and we have seen him get off the floor after getting smacked. Joshua has never been remotely tested and yet we're saying he's one of the best heavyweights in the world because he KOd a few Lithuanian journeymen? Ridiculous to be honest.

He's a prospect at the moment, stop overhyping him.

You reckon Fury gets off the floor if Joshua lands clean and hard?

My issue is that using the quality of opposition as your main reason is flawed. As mentioned by megadodge, it's more the manner in which Joshua is dispatching his opponents. Joshua is big, strong, very heavy handed, and puts together really crisp power combinations. What would be so surprising if Joshua landed hard and clean against Fury, and Fury got knocked out? It is HW boxing after all; we must surely consider a KO being a possibility?

And, thinking that he could KO Fury is hardly over hyping. It's not like we're saying that he would KO Vitali tomorrow!

If Fury and Joshua fought tomorrow how do you see it going?

megadodge · 01-12-2014 04:45PM

Big Ears wrote: »

Oh that's not true at all, if someone asked me If Joshua will win a version of a World title at some point all things considered I'd say it's almost a certainty. If someone asked me do I believe he will be the #1 Heavyweight in the World at some point I would say I believe so.
But where a fighter is going and where a fighter is at are two very different things, and tbh as good as Joshua is looking right now against the guys he's fighting, we don't really know where he's at when it comes to fighting the top guys in the division.
Kevin Johnson will give us a much better indication of that as he's been in with a lot of the best and gone the 12.

The only reason I've criticised the Olympic performances is people both here and on other forums constantly use it as a reason for why he's the saviour of the Heavyweight division, that's why I point out that he was extremely lucky to with it, and also that Audley Harrison was an Olympic Gold medalist and that didn't mean great pro success for him.
I agree with you about the World Championships I was actually very impressed with Joshua in them, especially for a fighter with his relatively limited experience.
The fact of the matter is his amateur career is long ended now, and people shouldn't even be mentioning the fact he was the Olympic 'Champion' at this stage. He's an excellent prospect who's developing well and should be judged on that alone.

Ya we all knew about Price's chin tbf, although oddly while that was what let him down in the first Thompson fight, it held up really, really well in the second one. It was the fact he gassed and punched himself out that got him stopped, his head was perfectly clear when it was waved off. He hurt Thompson a couple of times, and had him down for a 9 1/2 count, although that possibly was his undoing in the end as he looked to finish him off and punched himself out.
Price does possess flaws that Joshua (seemingly) doesn't, but Price is a big, tall heavyweight, with an excellent jab, phenomenal power and decent handspeed, but his career is in the gutter now. You can see in both the way he fights and the way he speaks that his belief is gone.
He likely was never bound for greatness, but he could of achieved things and would of potentially been good enough to chin a guy like Stiverne or Wilder.
Maybe got to cash in for big money vs Wlad, but it's all gone now.

All I'm saying is let's not get ahead of ourselves, let Joshua do the business against Johnson at the end of January and then we can properly assess where he's at and who's it's realistic to put him in with next.

I can't disagree with any of that really.... except that I doubt a lot of people were aware of Price's chin's history, they don't follow the amateurs that closely, but that's just nitpicking.

I understand where you're coming from.

megadodge · 01-12-2014 04:51PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I for the life of me can't see how people would have Joshua as a favourite. The man has beaten literally nobody only poor journeymen who were half of his size. Like it or not, Fury has beaten quality opposition a number of times and has shown himself to be a much more seasoned and developed fighter. He can box, he's massive, he has heart and we have seen him get off the floor after getting smacked. Joshua has never been remotely tested and yet we're saying he's one of the best heavyweights in the world because he KOd a few Lithuanian journeymen? Ridiculous to be honest.

He's a prospect at the moment, stop overhyping him.

Nope, we're not saying that. We're saying he's probably the best heavyweight prospect in the world.

I already mentioned that if he and Fury met soon, "I don't think it would be easy" for Joshua, but yes, I do believe he'd stop Fury, while possibly being behind on points. Don't forget Fury has been down a few times from boxers who are not regarded as big hitters. Steve Cunningham wasn't even regarded as a big puncher as a cruiser, but he put Fury down hard from a single right hand! That doesn't bode well for his ability to absorb Joshua's shots.

Strongbow10 · 01-12-2014 05:24PM

Joshua is completely untested and his chin cannot be judged yet either, he simply hasn't faced anyone capable of punching back let alone landing flush.

I completely agree in relation to the mention of his Olympic champion status as some kind of barometer, the lad should have been out in the first round. Some shocking decisions in the Olympics, Anthony Ogogo received an absolute gift of a decision aswell.

Price looked the part in the early stages of his career, much like Joshua does now.

I'm not a big fan of Tyson Fury at all but at this stage of his career i'd fancy him to beat Joshua should they meet right now. This will sound crazy given his record so far, but i'm also not entirely convinced by Joshua's power, and I think this will be reflected the higher the level he operates at.

In time, he will definately be good enough to hold a version of a world title but there are still so many questions to be answered about him so far.

walshb · 01-12-2014 05:26PM

Strongbow10 wrote: »

Joshua is completely untested and his chin cannot be judged yet either, he simply hasn't faced anyone capable of punching back let alone landing flush.

I completely agree in relation to the mention of his Olympic champion status as some kind of barometer, the lad should have been out in the first round. Some shocking decisions in the Olympics, Anthony Ogogo received an absolute gift of a decision aswell.

Price looked the part in the early stages of his career, much like Joshua does now.

I'm not a big fan of Tyson Fury at all but at this stage of his career i'd fancy him to beat Joshua should they meet right now. This will sound crazy given his record so far, but i'm also not entirely convinced by Joshua's power, and I think this will be reflected the higher the level he operates at.

In time, he will definately be good enough to hold a version of a world title but there are still so many questions to be answered about him so far.

Price for me never looked like Joshua. Slower and stiffer, and not near as smooth in punch delivery.

As for chin. Yes, untested at the pro game, but we do know that Fury has been hurt and dropped by smaller men, and men that IMO aren't as heavy handed as Joshua. That needs to be considered.

There are variables that need to be looked at, but on both sides.

I would still love to hear a breakdown of how Fury beats Joshua.

I see Joshua staring fast, jabbing with Fury. Heavy and hard jabs. I see Joshua being the heavier hitter off both wings, and faster off both wings. I see Joshua really stepping into his shots and getting to Fury easier than Fury gets to him. Ring size could be important for Fury. Big ring gives him space to move and evade. Smaller ring I see his getting trapped and knocked out. I am taking a guess that Joshua absorbs a single shot better than Fury.

badabing106 · 01-12-2014 05:41PM

megadodge wrote: »

Nope, we're not saying that. We're saying he's probably the best heavyweight prospect in the world.

I already mentioned that if he and Fury met soon, "I don't think it would be easy" for Joshua, but yes, I do believe he'd stop Fury, while possibly being behind on points. Don't forget Fury has been down a few times from boxers who are not regarded as big hitters. Steve Cunningham wasn't even regarded as a big puncher as a cruiser, but he put Fury down hard from a single right hand! That doesn't bode well for his ability to absorb Joshua's shots.

The Cunningham knockdown was more about bravado fury jumping in with hands down like a clown. Anyone who does that is landing on his ass?? .iit alsoshowed that he has a great chin?? He recovered very quickly from that knockdown.i don't think you will ever see fury be as reckless again. He had a brawler mentality in the early days, now he is using his boxing ability

walshb · 01-12-2014 05:47PM

badabing106 wrote: »

.iit alsoshowed that he has a great chin??

Are you asking or are you stating?

Do you think that the shot that dropped him was a real KO kind of shot?

Strongbow10 · 01-12-2014 05:56PM

walshb wrote: »

Are you asking or are you stating?

Do you think that the shot that dropped him was a real KO kind of shot?

In fairness it was a flash knockdown, one that he recovered from quite quickly.

Any heavyweight who left himself as open would be visiting the canvas (i'd imagine). The World heavyweight champ was the same until he employed a more cautious approach.

Now Fury is nowhere near as gifted as Wlad but a safety first approach first will see Fury beat alot of fighters, with his decent boxing skills and sheer reach and size advantages.

badabing106 · 01-12-2014 05:56PM

I think it is fair to say anyone would have been knocked down like he was. He was leaning back with hands around his waist and got smacked in the face very hard.

I'm asking would a lot of heavyweights have been able to recover as quickly from that?

walshb · 01-12-2014 05:58PM

badabing106 wrote: »

I think it is fair to say anyone would have been knocked down like he was. He was leaning back with hands around his waist and got smacked in the face very hard.

I'm asking would a lot of heavyweights have been able to recover as quickly from that?

It wasn't a particularly concussive shot, so, yes I think many would have recovered quickly.

thisonetaken · 01-12-2014 06:10PM

Fury admitted Joshua beat him up in sparring about 4 years ago, I can't see how the outcome would be any different now

Mantis Toboggan · 01-12-2014 06:29PM

Well, I think we will have to wait until 2016 to find out. Next year is huge for the two of them. Fury cannot have another 18 months of inactivity. Joshua still has a lot to prove which I'm sure he will. I expect both of these to be the main attraction in the heavyweight division over the next 10 years plus.

Right now Tyson is much further down the road in terms of experience and development, heck he just gave a masterclass fighting southpaw against a guy who alot of people on this forum fancied to ko fury.

walshb · 01-12-2014 09:35PM

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Right now Tyson is much further down the road in terms of experience and development, heck he just gave a masterclass fighting southpaw against a guy who alot of people on this forum fancied to ko fury.

I have no idea why anyone would give Chisora such a chance. He is useless, and has been getting more useless over the past few years. Joshua would take Chisora in a round or 2.

Frankie Lee · 01-12-2014 11:20PM

The other potential doubt about Joshua is his stamina, having a bodybuilder's physique like he does generally does not go hand in hand with stamina.

rebelomar · 02-12-2014 06:47AM

I think there's two sides to Fury that people see in the ring...there's the chubby, occasionally awkward looking guy who loses his cool and gets into a wild slugfest and gets caught often.

I think this can temper people's view to ignore the fact that he has by all evidence a pretty big gas tank, he has improved technically in the last 2 years and has real fighting spirit and grit.

Also the Steve Cunningham performance was notable for the absence of Peter in the corner. When you contrast this to two very controlled performances vs Chisora and Johnson it's obvious Peter has a huge impact or rather control on Tyson.

I feel he has improved immeasurably and he deserves credit for this.

walshb · 02-12-2014 09:11AM

pac_man wrote: »

Don't agree with that to be honest.Thought he improved since he fought Fury first time around. Calling him useless has no contextual meaning.

Useless was too strong a word. I knew that when I typed it. I just never rated the guy. A very ordinary HW. Very!

walshb · 02-12-2014 09:13AM

Frankie Lee wrote: »

The other potential doubt about Joshua is his stamina, having a bodybuilder's physique like he does generally does not go hand in hand with stamina.

For me he is just a big and naturally well built person. I don't see anything resembling Holyfield's later career, who was always a ripped and toned boxer. Joshua looks ordinary and natural. Nothing extraordinary about the physique.

supersean1999 · 02-12-2014 09:47AM

walshb wrote: »

For me he is just a big and naturally well built person. I don't see anything resembling Holyfield's later career, who was always a ripped and toned boxer. Joshua looks ordinary and natural. Nothing extraordinary about the physique.

You must be some tank

Fury v Chisora II

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