Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

PARlance wrote: »

In my view, I think you know someone who is carrying 6 + shots.

I don't believe in hearsay and the like, that's why below is all fact. It's all information that he posted on here.

He is a team mate of yours on your successful club team and was playing off 10 (posted his hc on here) whilst on another thread he posted his average scores from his last 20 rounds.
His average score was 6.6 over. That is his average score.
So his average score was almost 4 shots better than his handicap.
Stats will also show that if someone is averaging 6.6 over, then their handicap should be around 3 or 4.... and they'd be a very consistent golfer at that.
So that's carrying 6+ shots, or very close to it, in my book.

The ironic thing is that he claimed his is just a very good match player.
If he produces his best in match play over his casual rounds (I know it's hard to get the time to make those counting comps when you're involved with teams) then god help the opponents.

Absolute nonsense Parlance !!!!

Average score in casual rounds +7 counts for fcuk all !
How shooting +6 or +7 means you should be playing off 3 or 4 makes no sense.

Reckon some guys on here aren't as good as they think they are !

mafc wrote: »

Absolute nonsense Parlance !!!!

Average score in casual rounds +7 counts for fcuk all !
How shooting +6 or +7 means you should be playing off 3 or 4 makes no sense.

Reckon some guys on here aren't as good as they think they are !

I am in absolutely no doubt that I'm not as good many people of the same handicap. I don't need to look that far to see that.

But I'm not going to say much more, I like you as a poster (whatever that means or if you even care ) but it's very clear we have different, very different, expectations of HC & ability.

mafc wrote: »

The game of golf is about putting the ball in the hole not talking through it !
Par & sol

The amateur game of golf is about a lot more things mafc.

Not sure how i feel about this. I/ the guys i play with always do well at team events.
Myself i was off 8 at one stage now 13 i have the chipping yips but if i hit a green or fringe i can make a lot of pars but if i miss it is often mainly a scratch. I'm also long off the tee so good for a scramble and where i have others to chip for me.
Other guys i play with are a 1 handicapper solid 2 points every hole with a few birdies scattered in.
Typical 15 handicapper few pars the odd birdie.
20 handicapper who got his handicap but has never broken 36 points in a singles event, embarresed about his handicap and trying to get lower but is the double/par type of golfer.
When we play team events with the benefit of having a caddie to club you and read putts we always do well. A lot of having a good score comes down to luck and a good bit of dove tailing on the day. We won a scramble where i reckon if we had been playing singles the best anyone would have done would have been mid 20's. But we managed to get 1 good drive every hole one decent second shot and held a lot of putts.
Would be very hard to get cut for that.

opinionated3 wrote: »

Not if you played in pierce purcell in the last 2 years. .....

Im not going to jump in here and give out like mad but i agree with the above post 100%
I played Pierce Purcell this year and lost out on getting out of our group (not sure if this is right term) as we were beaten by the All Ireland Winners, now i know that doesnt mean my club would win it out right but its tough to take when you hear all the things been said about hc etc....

So before people go on about hearsay......the is 1st hand experience

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A bandit.

Is somebody who manipulates their handicap in any way.

That's not a bandit Fix, infacta he wouldn't even make the apprentice grade, a bandit is someone who can win at will, get their HC cut and a couple of weeks later is playing off old HC again, and the same guy rinses and repeats this process numerous times per annum, he is the scourge of every honest golfer in the country, has a neck like a jockeys bollix, no real friends and a cupboard full of ill gotten gains.

cairny wrote: »

No argument at all about that. Very hard to take. My issue is that people on here (Fixd in particular) then apply that to all people playing in the club team comps.

Without naming anyone the bad apples so to speak stand out big time, the vast majority of teams are made up of honest golfers with maybe a rogue or two on each panel. Not perfect by any means but worthwhile all the same.

Agreed that all club team members shouldn't be tarred with the same brush.
I for one don't think that all team golfers are dishonest, far from it, but I do think that team golf is littered with these "rogues".
I will not play any team comps because of this, I've improved quite a bit this year and I hope to do so next year... I would like to think (maybe delusionally) that I would be a great addition to a club team next year based on being an "improving golfer" vs last years handicap... I would hope that it's my only real window of being of any use as I hope to knock another lump of my HC next year and become a "bad" single figure golfer.

Getting back on topic and bringing the GUI into it, it's a bit rich when there's outrage from club team golfers when certain other teams that are taking the p*ss in club comps.
If we're being honest and saying that there are one or two rogues in each team and that this culture is accepted across the country, then people shouldn't go complaining about the GUI for doing nothing about it.
I don't see the GUI being able to bring in a ruling akin to the foreign player ruling in English football all those years ago... Right lads, you can have 3 rogues per team and no more.

There may be only 1 or 2 rogues in each team, but by that reckoning there an awful lot of other people (players, managers etc) doing nothing about it.
Assuming the rest are honest, they are still to blame, in fact they're more to blame imo. If they're in the majority, they should be able to sort out the minority.
But that's not going to happen, keep quiet and sure we have to keep up with the Jones... every other team has a few rogues, so we need a few, it'd be all fine and dandy if we could all just have the same amount of them.

It's a vicious circle lads and I can't see any way the GUI can stop it in Club Events until the honest lads start to do something about it other than keeping the head down.

PARlance wrote: »

Just on the GUI/Foreign soccer player train of thought.

There is an opportunity for the GUI to shake up the club game, it'd shake it up and make quite a bit of difference imo.
If they really want to tackle the issue, the could create a few new criteria for eligibility to team events (at the mid to high HC level)

- Team has to be made up of ~25-50% of "improving golfers" who have lost X amount of shots in the last 12 months
- Non improving players could be limited to a 2 year on, 2 year off rota. It'd give them a couple of years to play a few counting comps and freshen the team up.
-You're not eligible for 2 years if you have received an upward reward from the club (to combat the first point)

There would be ways around this as is always going to be the case, but something like that would certainly freshen things up.

Not necessarily a terrible idea, but a lot of clubs would likely to be unable to field teams, there's isn't an endless pool of new blood coming through. Some inter club teams are much the same now as they were 20 years ago.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Well fair enough Russman - I will to accept your experience , I'm not around formal golf too long. I'm fairly inquisitive - or perhaps have the head of a rouge (so these guys tell me stuff they shouldn't), but these lads keep telling me stuff - I'm talking about 8 - 9 lads over last 6 months that genuinely shocked me.

Maybe I need to get out more, I've only played in about 30 comps, and managed to win a few things get a few cuts, so not totally disillusioned or anything near that. The 105 points in a 3 man team , was genuinely shocking. I'm just trying to get a feel for "how things work".

At the end of the day - I'm doing my own thing in golf - I find club golf fairly unfriendly and a bit stuck in the past. It is the same lads , in the same 4 balls and same lads on the same teams. I'd be fairly outgoing - but entering a golf club is a strange place.

Also - for my liking I see far too many event won with 42 - 45 points.

Then there were experienced lads on here - who said - straight out , that every team up to a semi have to cheat. These were well experienced lads - not just wind up merchants.

Then other lads told me - they were told not to take part in single events to protect handicap :eek:

Then a manager telling me - he picked the worst bandit he ever came across " a lad who was off 15 but a real 8" - to add to this , does that mean a straight golfer missed out on that team - because he wasn't " A GOOD 15 " - when you think about that expression - to me that seems like an Irish solution to an Irish problem - an 8 shouldn't be that far off another 8.

Anyway - I think it is a cultural thing in different clubs , this culture becomes the norm , lads get lose and say things " will I pull up " - " Why did you get a cut in that" - " this is a great place for a 0.1"

I do my own research , try take the information in and make a judgement.

My experience over what has been under a year at GUI golf - has not been confidence instilling. Yes these are only informal conversations - weak moment admission.

But to me, they are far too frequent admissions - suggesting to me that the culture has gone a bit off in golf ?

Another guy I played with said to me - I was having a bad day - made buffer and did get more points than him in end (lol)
He said:
" It is all about having a competitive handicap". " why did you get your handicap so low?"

So If I'm trying to have as a low a handicap as possible - what is the logical conclusion of his point ? Answer: get a higher handicap.

So - as others say , don't worry about others and the system - get as low as you can for you.

But people who say that - are sort of giving up on the principle of this game ? They have decided it is the ultimate individual sport, forget everyone and everything. Forget about the handicap system at all. Do it for you - give up on the competitive side of the game. That to me is sad, as I was always told the Handicap system made this the game, we could all play together.

I'm willing to listen to more experienced wise players, but I wish these douche bags would not tell me this **** as I bust my balls for 33 points.

Perhaps I'm just a bitter "bad 7".

But again , not the game I'm at anyway , just found the whole thing a bit strange if I'm being honest , I haven't really got to understand the mentality of these lads - " Their motivation etc".

Ahh look, I couldn't really disagree with anything you've said above to be honest. And I'm certainly no expert on what all clubs do, but I would think that a lot of the examples are quite exceptional rather than the norm. It's like anything I guess, the normal stories never make good headlines or gossip. You've to get a balance between bravado and fact in a lot of ways. Lots of fellas will feel better about saying "sure I only wanted 0.1 today", when the truth is they'd love to do a score but they're playing sh1te. Somehow it makes it easier to accept. You see it especially with lads coming back from a junior scratch cup ".......sure all that was, was a handy 0.2....." They don't actually mean it, they're raging they played awful but can't admit it.

I know our PP manager very well and we got to the Leinster final a few years ago. I know for sure that there was no hint of managing handicaps or lads being told don't get cut towards the end of the previous season etc. (truth be told he was struggling to get a full panel in the run up to the finals). Anyway I was down watching it and, granted we lost in extra holes, had our lads played even close to what PP handicaps would be expected to, they'd have won handily. You'd be surprised, not always but at times, how poor the golf in interclub comps actually is, bandits or no bandits.

I'm not suggesting team building doesn't happen and some clubs have reputations more so than others, I'm sure we all know a club local to our own clubs and think "ahh sure they're a shower of rogues". Maybe it is indeed an Irish thing - I've always wondered why the ESR was optional in England, Scotland & wales but mandatory in Ireland - and we love a bit of cute ho0rism.

I take your point re two 8 handicaps being fairly equal, that's the theory, but even look at the best players, tour players are supposed to be fairly equal but there's probably 12-15 shots between first and last place after round one of an event. It think it was touched on in another thread before but there'd be huge misunderstanding of the handicap system across the board. Most golfers I know that I've discussed it with, simply can't get their heads around the idea that it should be hard to shoot your handicap and that you need to play "well" to play to it, I find it hard to accept myself to be honest (Now there's an idea for a motion for the GUI, try to explain the system better so guys see where ye're coming from !!)
Guys genuinely don't think a 12 handicapper who can reasonably comfortably play to 12 is a problem, it's pretty much expected as the norm. Club golfers aren't interested in statistics and analysis, they simply think "10 handicap, 10 over par most of the time". With that as an ingrained mindset I think it makes a little more sense of where the system is at.

I wouldn't be worrying about yer man and his "competitive handicap" nonsense, that's just polite talk for building a handicap so you can win prizes. Let him have his golf shoes or whatever he wins. If you play golf for prizes you're going to be disappointed most of the time. Personally, other than say a scratch cup or captains prize or medal, I'd rather be second and lose 0.4 than be first and win a dozen balls.

Don't lose faith, it's not all rotten out there, but remember that vast majority of golfers don't always bust their balls for 33pts, they can take whatever the day gives them without necessarily being a bandit, it's not all about grinding out a score for them.

I'm tired after all that typing !!

Am I the only one who isn't overly bothered about this sort of thing? To be honest I don't think bandits are a particular issue in my club but even if they were I doubt they'd worry me too much.

Even if there are bandits in my club they generally tend to stick to am-am type events and that's fine with me because I don't really play in these.

The reason I don't worry about it is that I have literally one goal in golf: to be a scratch golfer. If I never win another prize but I make it to scratch I'd be delighted. Obviously that wouldn't happen in reality as I'm sure I'd be winning a lot of gross prizes etc if I was down that low but you can see my point.

In the last 2 years I've dropped a lot of shots completely focusing on this attitude and in that time I've won a good few prizes (a nice bonus), so my attitude is to just worry about the handicap and everything else tends to sort itself out (ie prizes and getting picked on club teams etc).
Now I'll admit that maybe because I'm low enough to be competing for gross prizes and senior cup teams etc, both of which are obviously free from any possible banditry it gives me a distorted view on the whole thing. But I genuinely think that if you just focus on yourself and your own game and getting as low as you can then I really think you'll enjoy the game more.

Look at it this way, no matter what system we put in place there's a way around it for people that want to exploit it. If they're determined enough they can cheat any system. So don't let them ruin this great game, for me this game is just about self improvement and I can guarantee you that if you keep improving the rest will just fall into place anyway.