Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

FixdePitchmark · 26-11-2014 10:25PM

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Very easy. Plays great golf for 15 holes and then all of a sudden starts knocking down drives or blazing putts past the hole. Fair play to the lads for not signing his card.

I've done that not pulling.

Keano · 26-11-2014 10:30PM

All honest golfers have.

thoscon · 27-11-2014 12:17AM

Poker Face wrote: »

The following motion below was carried as the Munster AGM last night. Hopefully the other provinces follow suit

MUNSTER MOTIONS
THURLES GOLF CLUB
Thurles Golf Club proposes that the following system is introduced to achieve a uniform means of dealing with players recording notable performances in golf classics or similar team events (i.e. teams of four, teams of three, rumbles, scrambles etc.):

Mandatory Adjustments, under Clause 23 (B), for each notable performance:
Winners Runners-up Third Place
Category 1 0.0 0.0 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)
Category 2 -0.4 -0.2 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)
Category 3 -0.6 -0.3 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)
Category 4 -0.8 -0.4 Noted as a score for consideration under Clause 23 (A)

Rationale:
To strive for uniformity of all handicap committees in implementation of handicapping in respect of all Non-Qualifying returns.
CARRIED

Munster was the only province to support the motion the other 3 provinces didn't support the motion

Russman · 27-11-2014 12:19AM

opinionated3 wrote: »

To be fair something has to change. The banditry is completely out of hand imo. We had a situation in our club a few weeks ago when, in a regular open singles comp, 2 members refused to sign the card of a player that had been with them through the 18 holes. He was quite blatantly pulling up and actually thought it hilarious when the other 2 refused to sign the card. Very insulting to players who are trying to play in the honorable spirit of the game.

Is that true or a wind up ?
If true, I'd hope the two lads receive lengthy suspensions. They're there to attest to the number of strokes taken, not the number taken that they feel he should have had. Mob rule finally making it to the golf course. What's to stop 2 guys doing that to someone they just don't like ?

I wonder would they have signed the card of John Hahn who followed a 58 with a 78 at tour school last week, sure how could someone be 20 shots worse the next day, right ??

I'd say the club would be very wary of backing them and essentially calling someone a cheat with no hard evidence whatsoever. That could get very costly and all he'd have to say in court would be "Jean van de Velde"

Or are we saying that you can't have a blowup when going well ? Whoever figures out how to do that will make a lot of money selling that secret !

Yer man should probably be disqualified for stupidity if he was doing it that blatantly anyway

opinionated3 · 27-11-2014 08:17AM

The player in question is a known bandit throughout the club. He makes no effort to hide it. In the round in question he was playing fantastic golf. .... Had 7 blatant birdie opportunities and managed to conjure up bogeys and double bogeys on said holes. He is notorious for it. The vast majority in our club are honest golfers but there is a small handful of bandits and they are so well known that they don't even get any credit from fellow members when they win prizes. .... Another club close to us has a famous story of another bandit who was despised so much throughout the club membership that when he won an important matchplay cup his presentation was met with a stony silence in the clubhouse. .....

alxmorgan · 27-11-2014 09:04AM

Russman wrote: »

Is that true or a wind up ?
If true, I'd hope the two lads receive lengthy suspensions. They're there to attest to the number of strokes taken, not the number taken that they feel he should have had. Mob rule finally making it to the golf course. What's to stop 2 guys doing that to someone they just don't like ?

I wonder would they have signed the card of John Hahn who followed a 58 with a 78 at tour school last week, sure how could someone be 20 shots worse the next day, right ??

I'd say the club would be very wary of backing them and essentially calling someone a cheat with no hard evidence whatsoever. That could get very costly and all he'd have to say in court would be "Jean van de Velde"

Or are we saying that you can't have a blowup when going well ? Whoever figures out how to do that will make a lot of money selling that secret !

Yer man should probably be disqualified for stupidity if he was doing it that blatantly anyway

I agree it is dangerous ground but I know lads who are just sick to the back teeth of bandits. It sounds like you don't see too much of it - which is great.

I'll give you an example - mate playing matchplay against a guy who told him his aim for the year was to get out another shot in his handicap as he had made it to the Golf Digest final. So basically he's admitting to handicap manipulation while playing the guy. Makes him both a bandit and an idiot !!!

And these stories are all too frequent these days. I wish it wasn't like this but it is. And those guys who wouldn't sign the card - maybe it wasn't like me scratching 3 holes in a row while having a great round a few weeks ago. I was tearing my hair out and looking for ground to swallow me up. But if I was happy as Larry doing it then that would be another matter. I guess without being there we can't be sure. But I take the point that it is setting a dangerous precedent.

Russman · 27-11-2014 09:27AM

alxmorgan wrote: »

I agree it is dangerous ground but I know lads who are just sick to the back teeth of bandits. It sounds like you don't see too much of it - which is great.

I'll give you an example - mate playing matchplay against a guy who told him his aim for the year was to get out another shot in his handicap as he had made it to the Golf Digest final. So basically he's admitting to handicap manipulation while playing the guy. Makes him both a bandit and an idiot !!!

And these stories are all too frequent these days. I wish it wasn't like this but it is. And those guys who wouldn't sign the card - maybe it wasn't like me scratching 3 holes in a row while having a great round a few weeks ago. I was tearing my hair out and looking for ground to swallow me up. But if I was happy as Larry doing it then that would be another matter. I guess without being there we can't be sure. But I take the point that it is setting a dangerous precedent.

Every club has it's share of bandits, personally I don't think they are as numerous as is made out at times, but that's neither here nor there. Maybe it just doesn't bother me as much because I play for my own handicap and what someone else does has little bearing on that. Ultimately they're only fooling themselves anyway.

I see it just as much as the next guy, for example, I play usually in the first 4 or 5 groups out on the sheet, it's almost all the much same guys and we mix and match to make sure nobody is left out, ie there might be 9 players so two four balls on the sheet will make 3 threeballs etc. Anyway, there'd be odd times through the year when you'd see certain afternoon players arriving up first thing for a game, now, I know full well that they are only up for 0.1 for whatever reason, maybe there's a big comp the next day or week, maybe they're off on a holiday and will miss out of a few 0.1s when they're away, whatever.
Can I prove it ? No.
Should I refuse to sign their cards ? Also no.
Will it be obvious from their cards ? No way, these guys can shoot 29pts and spread that bad golf out very well.

I just think members refusing to sign cards is a very dangerous line to cross. I can't tell you the number of times I've hooked it OOB on our 17th when going well or with a chance of doing a score, I know what my reaction would be if my partners said, sorry that wasn't your best efforts, I'm not signing your card.

Keano · 27-11-2014 09:52AM

I know what you are saying russ you the honest golfer will be guy who looks pissed off when he does that. The .1 chaser just laughs it off and puts next one OOB too and laughs again.

slave1 · 27-11-2014 09:53AM

Russman wrote: »

..I just think members refusing to sign cards is a very dangerous line to cross...

I have to agree with this, the signing of the card attests to strokes taken and not in any way the golfer's handicap ability/disability/management of or otherwise.

cairny · 27-11-2014 10:00AM

There are scenarios where it would be the right thing to do, we had a lad who would pick up his ball after hitting the green on the 18th (in front of the clubhouse if you don't mind) and say "put me down for a blank" until someone correctly refused to sign his card.

As a marker your duties are more than just counting shots, you're not a referee but you have a duty to bring any rule breaches to the attention of the player or committee to protect the rest of the field.

I'd agree though it's very dangerous and really the player would have to have admitted it by word or deed.

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 03:33PM

opinionated3 wrote: »

The player in question is a known bandit throughout the club. He makes no effort to hide it. In the round in question he was playing fantastic golf. .... Had 7 blatant birdie opportunities and managed to conjure up bogeys and double bogeys on said holes. He is notorious for it. The vast majority in our club are honest golfers but there is a small handful of bandits and they are so well known that they don't even get any credit from fellow members when they win prizes. .... Another club close to us has a famous story of another bandit who was despised so much throughout the club membership that when he won an important matchplay cup his presentation was met with a stony silence in the clubhouse. .....

I think the context above provides support to the two lads.

In the absence of anybody doing something - it may take a bit of direct action like this. It may be wrong as per the rules of golf - but cheating is a far worse wrong - and this covered very will in the spirit and intent of game in rules.

The GUI need to get the finger out. Fair play to the lads.

It clearly wasn't a random punter - they knew the score with him.

I was at an event and the lads were saying "will we pull up or not" :eek: - I said something, it is so open now , it is a joke.

Then we have had lads on here openly saying that to be on most club teams - you have to play the game - openly saying that here. Then you have guys - with a reasonable degree of confidence saying , the only way to win certain stuff is to cheat. In fact we have read here that they are cheating with certainty (playing to false handicap).

GUI - need to get the finger out. Yes lads can cheat or will find a way , but make it harder.

If you win a team comp - you get cut.
You can do this is many ways . You can make the cut based on calculations too.

The only people who fear a cut - are lads that should be getting cut.

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 03:35PM

cairny wrote: »

There are scenarios where it would be the right thing to do, we had a lad who would pick up his ball after hitting the green on the 18th (in front of the clubhouse if you don't mind) and say "put me down for a blank" until someone correctly refused to sign his card.

As a marker your duties are more than just counting shots, you're not a referee but you have a duty to bring any rule breaches to the attention of the player or committee to protect the rest of the field.

I'd agree though it's very dangerous and really the player would have to have admitted it by word or deed.

**** sake.

What game are these lads playing - it isn't golf.

So - how on earth can people expect others not to do something.

Well done again.

Russman · 27-11-2014 04:50PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

**** sake.

What game are these lads playing - it isn't golf.

So - how on earth can people expect others not to do something.

Well done again.

That's all well and good, but it's not up to other players to pass judgement on their opponent/partner's motivation for the score they shoot, all they are to do is confirm the number of shots taken. What justification within the rules would they have when challenged on it ?
What if one day two guys get it wrong and refuse to sign the card of someone who genuinely played a poor last 3 holes ? What if that guy gets a reputation as a result ? What if he gets the learned friends involved ? Unfortunately you can't condemn someone based on "what everyone knows" - everyone may well be correct, but it can't be proven. It's too close to vigilante justice (in golfing terms). The one true bandit I know of is a joke, I've seen him have 4 consecutive scores in the high 40s and also seen him shoot low 20s but I still had to sign his card any time I played with him. Funnily enough he actually wins F--k all during the year.

I'm all in favour of catching cheats, but someone who is sandbagging isn't necessarily breaking a rule of golf so there's nothing to report. Even the guy picking up on the 18th, he's broken a rule by picking up his ball and so takes a penalty - extra shots on his score are exactly what he wants. What can you do ? Agree to waive a penalty and say "no, you probably would have had a par, I'll give you 2 points..." ?

It's effectively a crime that can't be proven because of the nature of the sport. It may be suspected, even "known" but if it can't be proven then it never happened.

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 05:30PM

If a guy picks up a ball like that. He is dirt.

He deserves everything you can throw at him including golfing vigilantism.

Russman · 27-11-2014 06:51PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If a guy picks up a ball like that. He is dirt.

He deserves everything you can throw at him including golfing vigilantism.

In the circumstances described, he is indeed, no doubt about it.
But I still say the rest of us can't cross the line into also breaking rules and justifying it by saying it's for the greater good.
Don't forget, it's only golf, it's not like anyone's dying because joe Bloggs got a 0.1 he maybe didn't deserve. We both know how hard it is to not get 0.1, nobody, honest or otherwise, should ever have to pick up on 18 because they're going too well, that's just bad management !!
Rightly or wrongly we don't live in a golfing utopia where everyone tries their maximum on every shot in every round they play. I know I'm more likely to fight against a 0.1 when my exact is close to going up a playing shot, ie x.3, rather than say if I'm x.7 when a 0.1 doesn't really matter. I certainly won't intentionally play poor, just won't be too bothered if it's not going my way.

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 07:30PM

Russman wrote: »

In the circumstances described, he is indeed, no doubt about it.
But I still say the rest of us can't cross the line into also breaking rules and justifying it by saying it's for the greater good.
Don't forget, it's only golf, it's not like anyone's dying because joe Bloggs got a 0.1 he maybe didn't deserve. We both know how hard it is to not get 0.1, nobody, honest or otherwise, should ever have to pick up on 18 because they're going too well, that's just bad management !!
Rightly or wrongly we don't live in a golfing utopia where everyone tries their maximum on every shot in every round they play. I know I'm more likely to fight against a 0.1 when my exact is close to going up a playing shot, ie x.3, rather than say if I'm x.7 when a 0.1 doesn't really matter. I certainly won't intentionally play poor, just won't be too bothered if it's not going my way.

Well - i'd never do that.

But your talking about - 0.1, the margins, the grey areas. Some of these incidents are not grey they are extreme.

When lads are out and out cheating - perhaps it is time to stand up and be counted.

Only by objection and making it an issue will it cause the powers to be, to act. Perhaps word will get back to his club - he will be a marked man - no harm. I'm not saying pick the grey area ones, the margins - take on the extremes - set examples , set standards.

Like The Irish Water example ( I didn't agree with that) - but direct action works.

This may be the seed ( what the two lads did)- or the sort of event that cause more people to watch over handicaps - it may be the sort of event that causes motions to come forward to stop it from Munster branch. It will get people talking about it.

Yes it shouldn't be individuals taking action - but the GUI need to get the finger out. You will never get rid of it - but make it harder , highlight the problems.

You mentioned , you knew an out and out bandit - I wouldn't play with him in a team event.

Sitting on your hands saying - we can't do anything - you can't risk stepping on toes - sorry , there will be no tears around here for bandits.

We are not talking about grey areas - we are talking out and out.

I'd be far more radical with these lads. Also handicap for life - 2 shots up per year only - 5 years to go up 10 shots.

Russman · 27-11-2014 09:50PM

I hear ya. But as you say, these are extremes, if they are the outliers that are the exception rather than the rule, is it possible to adequately make rules to stop them ? I don't think it is tbh. At lest not without impacting potentially on lots of innocent or borderline cases. Or what if the major fundraiser for a club was stopped because of some crazy motion and people didn't play ?

There's a bigger picture I think. I really can't see the provinces getting too upset with team events tbh, they're a tiny proportion of the golf played by the vast majority and it's just not worth it. There's always going to be cheats no matter what rules are in place, like in any sport. Very different obviously, but has there ever been a soccer match with no frees ? Or ever a rugby match with no offsides ?

You can't legislate for every eventuality and any system or sport that has something as subjective as handicap will always be open to abuse. Thankfully the vast majority are honest.

Handicap for life ? That's just crazy talk

Just because someone was able to shoot 72 ten years ago doesn't mean he can now. I play regularly with a guy who used to be off 3 maybe 20 years ago (and had been for most of his life) he's 75 years of age now and has drifted out to around 10/11 over the last decade or so. He still hits it lovely but is (genuinely) more likely to 3 putt from four feet than hole it. Very occasionally, once or twice a year, he does a score, say, 37/38 points, mostly he's in or around 30 - now there's no way he should be still off 3, come on.
We're supposed to enjoy the game, it's not some sort of exercise in self flagellation where we punish ourselves and if it's not a struggle we're not doing it right. The idea is that handicap reflects current ability, not what we used to be able to do.

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 10:05PM

No - your friend could gain 20 shots in 10 years - no issue.

But a lad who was off say 5, 2 years ago - should only be able to go out to 9 . That is fair.

A lad leaving a club - coming back say in 3 years and gaining 10 shots - is not on.

Your man who is a total bandit you mentioned - what does he enter or what is his motivation ?

alxmorgan · 27-11-2014 10:06PM

Russman wrote: »

I hear ya. But as you say, these are extremes, if they are the outliers that are the exception rather than the rule, is it possible to adequately make rules to stop them ? I don't think it is tbh. At lest not without impacting potentially on lots of innocent or borderline cases. Or what if the major fundraiser for a club was stopped because of some crazy motion and people didn't play ?

There's a bigger picture I think. I really can't see the provinces getting too upset with team events tbh, they're a tiny proportion of the golf played by the vast majority and it's just not worth it. There's always going to be cheats no matter what rules are in place, like in any sport. Very different obviously, but has there ever been a soccer match with no frees ? Or ever a rugby match with no offsides ?

You can't legislate for every eventuality and any system or sport that has something as subjective as handicap will always be open to abuse. Thankfully the vast majority are honest.

Handicap for life ? That's just crazy talk
Just because someone was able to shoot 72 ten years ago doesn't mean he can now. I play regularly with a guy who used to be off 3 maybe 20 years ago (and had been for most of his life) he's 75 years of age now and has drifted out to around 10/11 over the last decade or so. He still hits it lovely but is (genuinely) more likely to 3 putt from four feet than hole it. Very occasionally, once or twice a year, he does a score, say, 37/38 points, mostly he's in or around 30 - now there's no way he should be still off 3, come on.
We're supposed to enjoy the game, it's not some sort of exercise in self flagellation where we punish ourselves and if it's not a struggle we're not doing it right. The idea is that handicap reflects current ability, not what we used to be able to do.

You make solid points as always. This is a good discussion actually as the crazies have stayed away

I think the analogy you draw with frees and offsides is incorrect though. I would equate it more to match fixing. Frees and offsides occur in a game played in a sporting spirit where everyone is trying their best (I accept some fouls are nasty and cynical etc). Match fixing is setting out to predetermine an outcome in an underhand manner - the equivalent of setting out to get a 0.1 so you can win at a later stage.

mafc · 27-11-2014 10:13PM

These so called "bandits" that are regularly in the prizes in 2,3,4 person team events are never to be seen when it comes to singles competitions !
So personally I don't give a hoot, let them go and win their mediocre prizes.
Golf in the main is an individual sport, does anyone really brag about winning a team competition?
Winning a monthly medal or a Captains prize far outweighs any amount of team competition wins IMHO.

Can anyone here define what a "bandit" is ? I don't believe in hearsay and the like and do not know of anyone who is carrying 6 + shots.
WHAT IS A BANDIT ??????

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 10:16PM

A bandit.

Is somebody who manipulates their handicap in any way.

FixdePitchmark · 27-11-2014 10:25PM

mafc wrote: »

Winning a monthly medal or a Captains prize far outweighs any amount of team competition wins IMHO.

Interclub competitions are very prestigious and they are team events.

The point is - if you throw a blind eye to it - because it is "fund raisin" - " charity" - " for the Club" - particularly when a GUI handicap is a feature of these events. You are undermining the process.

Yes, make a stance - and if it is team events and interclub that are the target great - who would be worried about a 0.1 up to 0.8 cut - if you win one of these events.

We all know the inter club scene is poison too and this needs to be tackled too.

Doing nothing is not good enough at this stage.

Russman · 27-11-2014 10:32PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No - your friend could gain 20 shots in 10 years - no issue.

But a lad who was off say 5, 2 years ago - should only be able to go out to 9 . That is fair.

A lad leaving a club - coming back say in 3 years and gaining 10 shots - is not on.

Your man who is a total bandit you mentioned - what does he enter or what is his motivation ?

Ahh right, sorry I thought you meant you'd do away with the 2 shots per year. Totally agree that someone returning shouldn't gain 10 shots or anything close to it. If anything I'd be inclined to be harsher and more stringent in that scenario.

Honestly I've no idea what yer man's motivation is. Some of us have wondered amongst ourselves many times along the lines of "why does he do it ?" Meaning hold a high handicap. He would very rarely win a club comp, and even then it might only be a random singles stableford rather than, say, the captains prize. Maybe he plays big money games with his mates or something, genuinely have no idea but that was the best guess we could come up with.

mafc · 27-11-2014 10:34PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Interclub competitions are very prestigious and they are team events.

The point is - if you throw a blind eye to it - because it is "fund raisin" - " charity" - " for the Club" - particularly when a GUI handicap is a feature of these events. You are undermining the process.

Yes, make a stance - and if it is team events and interclub that are the target great - who would be worried about a 0.1 up to 0.8 cut - if you win one of these events.

We all know the inter club scene is poison too and this needs to be tackled too.

Doing nothing is not good enough at this stage.

Have been involved in Intetclub competitions for a few years and to say it's poison is incorrect. How de "we" all know it's poison ? we don't, hearsay & cheap talk mostly I'd say.

Russman · 27-11-2014 10:35PM

alxmorgan wrote: »

You make solid points as always. This is a good discussion actually as the crazies have stayed away

I think the analogy you draw with frees and offsides is incorrect though. I would equate it more to match fixing. Frees and offsides occur in a game played in a sporting spirit where everyone is trying their best (I accept some fouls are nasty and cynical etc). Match fixing is setting out to predetermine an outcome in an underhand manner - the equivalent of setting out to get a 0.1 so you can win at a later stage.

Cheers.

Or maybe we are the crazies !!
Fair point on the frees and offside, match fixing is indeed closer to the nub of it.

Russman · 27-11-2014 10:46PM

mafc wrote: »

These so called "bandits" that are regularly in the prizes in 2,3,4 person team events are never to be seen when it comes to singles competitions !
So personally I don't give a hoot, let them go and win their mediocre prizes.
Golf in the main is an individual sport, does anyone really brag about winning a team competition?
Winning a monthly medal or a Captains prize far outweighs any amount of team competition wins IMHO.

Can anyone here define what a "bandit" is ? I don't believe in hearsay and the like and do not know of anyone who is carrying 6 + shots.
WHAT IS A BANDIT ??????

This would be my point too. Personally I think the traditional view was that a bandit was someone was carrying a few shots AND could deliver the good scores pretty much when required. I don't think there are many who would actually meet both criteria IMHO.

I do think there an element of begrudgery in labelling someone a bandit. Maybe it's the Irish mentality, maybe it's sore loser syndrome, I dunno, but I've rarely heard anyone who just lost an inter club match say they played poorly, it always seems to be they played great but were up against some fella who was a total rogue. I think people need to look at themselves sometimes. Put it this way, I've yet to see someone off our metro team admit afterwards that he's simply not good enough to play off 9 and is realistically a 12 and that's why he was hammered.

Russman · 27-11-2014 10:49PM

mafc wrote: »

Have been involved in Intetclub competitions for a few years and to say it's poison is incorrect. How de "we" all know it's poison ? we don't, hearsay & cheap talk mostly I'd say.

I think the higher the handicap brackets and the latter stages of the comps is where you see the bad stuff. I agree it's not wholesale but certainly to win one of the events in particular you need to be carrying a few shots, from what I've seen.

Russman · 27-11-2014 11:04PM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Interclub competitions are very prestigious and they are team events.

The point is - if you throw a blind eye to it - because it is "fund raisin" - " charity" - " for the Club" - particularly when a GUI handicap is a feature of these events. You are undermining the process.

Yes, make a stance - and if it is team events and interclub that are the target great - who would be worried about a 0.1 up to 0.8 cut - if you win one of these events.

We all know the inter club scene is poison too and this needs to be tackled too.

Doing nothing is not good enough at this stage.

But if banditry is essentially based around intent, ie whether someone is trying to play bad or just playing bad, to get 0.1, how could a motion possibly be drafted to legislate for this ? Most players scores are poor, most of the time, how could the rules decide what's intentional or not, or who's handicap building versus just playing poorly for a period (swing change, illness, distraction, lack of practice etc) ?

mafc · 27-11-2014 11:16PM

Russman wrote: »

I think the higher the handicap brackets and the latter stages of the comps is where you see the bad stuff. I agree it's not wholesale but certainly to win one of the events in particular you need to be carrying a few shots, from what I've seen.

Would be inclined to agree with you re the higher handicap brackets however we can all have good, average and very poor days on the course. Ten & twelve shot differentials between your best and worst can happen !
I have yet to see someone turn it on at will. Maybe there are some who can but I very much doubt it !
Have had my say....
Going to leave it at that now

PARlance · 27-11-2014 11:19PM

mafc wrote: »

I don't believe in hearsay and the like and do not know of anyone who is carrying 6 + shots.

In my view, I think you know someone who is carrying 6 + shots.

I don't believe in hearsay and the like, that's why below is all fact. It's all information that he posted on here.

He is a team mate of yours on your successful club team and was playing off 10 (posted his hc on here) whilst on another thread he posted his average scores from his last 20 rounds.
His average score was 6.6 over. That is his average score.
So his average score was almost 4 shots better than his handicap.
Stats will also show that if someone is averaging 6.6 over, then their handicap should be around 3 or 4.... and they'd be a very consistent golfer at that.
So that's carrying 6+ shots, or very close to it, in my book.

The ironic thing is that he claimed his is just a very good match player.
If he produces his best in match play over his casual rounds (I know it's hard to get the time to make those counting comps when you're involved with teams) then god help the opponents.

Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

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