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The Paedophile Next Door

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Comments

  • #182
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    How sexually frustrated would you be if you'd never had sex with the object of your desires?

    Well how do celibate priests manage then?

    Yes, there are plenty who did commit abuses, but far more who never did. Being celibate doesn't automatically turn you into a rapist.


  • #183
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I said it's not good enough for me .......... so you'd happily trust a paedophile alone with your child if he promises you he won't rape your child???

    I don't think we can realistically compare grown men and women who are sexually attracted to each other to paedophiles ........ can we? :confused:

    I can't imagine how sexually frustrated I would get if I could never ever relieve my sexual urges with another person ......... for the rest of my life!!! :eek:
    Is masturbation not relief enough when the alternative is hurting someone? As soon as you couldn't have consensual sex ever again with your attractions you would resort to unconsensual sex?


  • #184
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    looking_around wrote: »
    (being attracted to children, is less orientation and more fetish.)
    What do you base this on?


  • #185
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    animum wrote: »
    great film starring Kevin bacon...the woodsman....on Netflix...tells the story from the paedophiles point of view...

    for me it was really conflicting, I didn't want the main character to harm any child, but it was to save him and the child...really got me thinking from another angle..

    these people are people, regular everyday people, that battle demons I hope to never have to battle anything like it myself..

    I think alot of child abuse cases, are abuse of power, alcoholism, and alot of other factors, celibacy in priests, mental health issues etc...

    paedophilia I think is different, and is a sexual orientation, that actually upsets the mind it is in...



    a child abuser is not necessarily a paedophile. and vice versa

    I've seen that movie and it is quite powerful, thought-provoking and moving at times .......... it's worth noting that Kevin Bacon's character (the paedophile) acknowledges that he needs to avoid contact with children as much as possible if he is to have any chance at suppressing his sexual urges.

    It feels odd to be rooting for a paedophile character in a movie ......... but I was rooting for him!!


  • #186
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    floggg wrote: »
    Well how do celibate priests manage then?

    Yes, there are plenty who did commit abuses, but far more who never did. Being celibate doesn't automatically turn you into a rapist.

    Nuns, other priests, members of the congregation, prostitutes and of course children ..........


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  • #187
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    Is masturbation not relief enough when the alternative is hurting someone? As soon as you couldn't have consensual sex ever again with your attractions you would resort to unconsensual sex?

    As a human being I need the touch of another human being in order to be fully satisfied, it's natural ..........


  • #188
    dar100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭dar100


    SparkySpitfire wrote: »
    Its in the DSM and the ICD as a mental disorder so yes.

    There are many 'disorders' in both the DSM and ICD 10. Mainly full of BS though


  • #189
    Murray007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 249 ✭✭Murray007


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Of course not, that is what is in discussion here is it not? The idea of a change in our thinking. A way to foster a society where rather than hide in the shadows with such an attraction people can come forward and say "Look I have this, what can we do about it together?"

    The point being that the idea being espoused that such people should come forward... but our first response should be to slap all kinds of curtailed freedoms on them, monitoring, restricted movement and accesses, and more (one user even suggested they should be instantly and without question simply removed from society) is clearly not the clear headed and intellectual response to the idea.

    As multiple users, not just me, have pointed out... the best we are going to achieve with this attitude is to simply maintain the status quo of these people simply not standing up and coming out with it.

    And the complete abject uselessness of the attitude becomes clear when you realize that it is likely NOT the people who do step forward with it that need to be targeted or worried about anyway. It is the ones who do NOT.

    One dreams of a medical advancement in this area anyway. I hope we one day make it. We are becoming better and better at identifying thoughts, emotions and responses through all kinds of neural imagining techniques, measurements of galvanic skin response and much more. One hopes some day the test for paedophilia will be as simple as a test for fever.

    But one also wonders if paranoia about paedophiles, especially those who openly admit to it and seek assistance, is even that useful. Every person working with our children in any way are potential risks. Some might not even know themselves they are a risk until one day they find themselves alone with them and in a position to do something and suddenly dark thoughts well up that were never there before. What truly useful effect does our well meant paranoia bring us?

    I would rather the structures that provide opportunity be over hauled to deal with this. An admitted paedophile working in a kindergarten is a lot less disturbing to me than the idea the working structure of such a kindergarten allows for one to get alone with a child in such a way, for such a time period, as to allow them to conduct the kinds of acts that every single person on this thread, myself included, strongly wish to prevent. THAT would be more worthy of being looked at than anything else I can think of.



    Given I have two children I am happy to take that bet. It is christmas time, I could use the cash.



    No idea what you think you mean by this or what your point is. I certainly doubt anyone on this thread thinks sexual activity with a child is tolerable. And I am certainly unconvinced that the majority of paedophiles do either.



    Hold on, what do you think a pedophile is, whether active or not, sexual activity with child is either an aspiration or a muted fantasy. Either way do not take the risk with a child. You will be let down they will be destroyed.


  • #190
    kjl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,127 ✭✭✭kjl


    floggg wrote: »
    Well how do celibate priests manage then?

    Yes, there are plenty who did commit abuses, but far more who never did. Being celibate doesn't automatically turn you into a rapist.

    plus Im sure you can still have sex with a woman if you are attracted to children. It's just one particular urge that can't be satisfied.

    Similar to the way that someone might get off on some sort of fetish but just because he doesn't doesn't do it doesn't mean they don't get get sexual fulfilment.


  • #191
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    As a human being I need the touch of another human being in order to be fully satisfied, it's natural ..........
    Raping is not natural for me, but then I have never had intimacy with anyone. Fantasy is enough for me.


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  • #192
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    floggg wrote: »
    Well how do celibate priests manage then?

    Yes, there are plenty who did commit abuses, but far more who never did. Being celibate doesn't automatically turn you into a rapist.

    No but it must increase the pressure to be aggressive and suffer a lot of stress. We don't know, however, how many were actual abusers. We only know the ones that have been caught - so far.
    Perhaps the power to chose an alternative passion helps suppress the urges. This is part of what needs to be learned though study and not vilification.


  • #193
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    What do you base this on?

    Definition of the word speicifies gender. Regardless of whether a person is gay, straight or bisexual, they can still be a pedophile.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #194
    ALiasEX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Definition of the word speicifies gender. Regardless of whether a person is gay, straight or bisexual, they can still be a pedophile.
    Assuming they have a fetish rather than a different orientation, how do you know they outnumber the pedophiles with an exclusive attraction to kids?


  • #195
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    As a human being I need the touch of another human being in order to be fully satisfied, it's natural ..........

    Does this mean that without it being offered by someone able, both legally and morally, that you would resort to rape?


  • #196
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Didn't see the programme, but I have a problem with these kinds of shows on principle. In my view they run the risk of normalising child abuse, even it unintentionally.


  • #197
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    Assuming they have a fetish rather than a different orientation, how do you know they outnumber the pedophiles with an exclusive attraction to kids?

    Think you may be confusing me with another poster - I never made any point about anyone outnumbering anyone else, and I donlt understand who "they" refers to.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #198
    crybaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭crybaby


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Didn't see the programme, but I have a problem with these kinds of shows on principle. In my view they run the risk of normalising child abuse, even it unintentionally.


    Normalizing child abuse? Please do explain further


  • #199
    Irishcrx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx




  • #200
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Murray007 wrote: »
    Hold on, what do you think a pedophile is, whether active or not, sexual activity with child is either an aspiration or a muted fantasy. Either way do not take the risk with a child. You will be let down they will be destroyed.

    That would be my point entirely. I do not have a one size fits all of what a "pedophile" is. And I do not conflate attraction with action, or desire with intent, as readily as numerous people seem to.

    Rather I see both pedophilia AND intention to be continua along which each person will lie in entirely different places.

    But if you demand a sound byte on what I believe a pedophile to be then I see it as a person who has an undefined level of attraction sexually to children. My definition, in other words, does not include reference to anyone actually acting ON those urges. Just having them.

    And for every one of them that abuses or rapes a child, there are likely NUMEROUS ones that never do, never will and never would. My suspicion is that the number of people actually with such an attraction FAR outweighs the number of them we are aware of by their actually acting on their desires.
    ALiasEX wrote: »
    Raping is not natural for me, but then I have never had intimacy with anyone. Fantasy is enough for me.

    That would be an analogous point I would make on this thread too.

    There are numerous people among us who have a rape fantasy. Either engaging in it, or having it done to them. Men and women. But those desires and fantasies reside in fantasy only. The majority of them do not _actually_ want to rape anyone or _actually_ be raped.

    I think there are a lot of people, perhaps even the majority, who have sexual fantasies they would like to engage in AND sexual fantasies that reside in their brain only for which they have no interest in ever making real.

    I do not think this is limited to sex either. I think we have fantasies in our life that we enjoy engaging in but never want to see made real. There are probably those among us, for example, who have imagined our Boss at work dying a slow and painful and agonizing death. But the majority of those people would not _actually_ like to see real and actual harm of any kind actually befall that person.


  • #201
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    it's worth noting that Kevin Bacon's character (the paedophile) acknowledges that he needs to avoid contact with children as much as possible if he is to have any chance at suppressing his sexual urges.

    Absolutely! And there are people like that in reality too, not just fiction. I think an error people make when conceptualizing Pedophilia. They see it as a one catch all label and they think they know what they mean.

    The reality, as my first post went into so I will not take up space repeating it here, is that there is a vast continuum of both drives towards it, how it presents in the person who has it, and to what degree it is likely to influence their behavior.

    Clearly finding a way to foster a community where people who have this can step forward and say "I have this, what can we do about it?" is going to help us not only deal with this, but develop ways and methodologies to diagnose where on the continuum people lie and to make informed decisions on who simply should be made to avoid all contact with children because they simply can not be trusted in any workable scenario otherwise.
    MadDog76 wrote: »
    It feels odd to be rooting for a paedophile character in a movie ......... but I was rooting for him!!

    That is the power of literature, art and hollywood. It allows us, in ways simply not available to us in the real world, to take on the perspective of the "bad guy" in a way that we simply can not achieve in reality. It is _very_ easy for us as a species to demonize the bad guy and simply represent him as unassailably evil in our mind.

    With our fiction however we can get into the head space of the bad guy and really see things from a perspective that would simply never be available to us in reality. And, as you say above, it can leave you feeling really odd because a dichotomy is created in your head between your normal natural reaction.... that of having a hate all representation of the "bad guy" in our mind.... and that of having that persons perspective available to you.... and your feeling of "oddness" likely comes from the clash between these two representations in your mind.

    I have often said for example, that the most terrifying evil characters in literature and screen are not the wantonly "evil" people like hannibal lector. But the evil people who reach their evil through a series of rational and possibly even well meant steps. And at the end you can see them for the evil person they are.... but you can also see, understand, and relate to every tiny decision they made along the path that got them there.

    And that evil is terrifying because not only is the evil itself terrifying, but you can not imagine yourself what you yourself would have done different at each stage along that persons descent into evil.


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  • #202
    Irishcrx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    I guess you can't bar all paedophile's with the same brush , by definition are all men/women who are attracted to under age children paedophiles or is it just those that act upon those urges.

    It's something that people will always struggle to understand , I don't understand how someone could hurt a child or be attracted to them but obviously there are a large amount of people who are, there are a large amount who also probably are and hate themselves for it. I'd imagine it contributes to a lot of suicides every year, I mean as said here it's hardly something you can go around saying to people , talking about and there is no help really out there for it, people will brand you straight away.

    I honestly don't think it's something they can control, similar to those who have alternated sexual orientation it's probably something they are born with and cannot help or be fixed and at the same time it is something that can not and will not ever be tolerated.


  • #203
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Irishcrx wrote: »
    I guess you can't bar all paedophile's with the same brush , by definition are all men/women who are attracted to under age children paedophiles or is it just those that act upon those urges.

    I think "pedophile" is the person who has the attraction. All of them.

    "Rapists" "Abusers" and so forth are the people who act on them.

    But "pedophile" refers to the attraction not the action I think.
    Irishcrx wrote: »
    It's something that people will always struggle to understand , I don't understand how someone could hurt a child or be attracted to them

    True. I also do not know how guys can be attracted to other guys, because I simply do not have that attraction myself. But that exists too. Not having an attraction to something, makes it very hard to put yourself into the head space of people who do. But it helps to try.


  • #204
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    This is my point: are Africa coutries right if they define homosexuality as a mental illness?
    Are we right when we don't? In the case of a lot of mental illnesses, they appear to be defined on one's psychology being in line with society's expectations. There's nothing terribly 'insane' about sociopaths, for example - they're not particularly delusional per say, but they are 'anti-social'.
    The question isn't so much what happened, the question is why? And again, why is pedophilia a mental illness now, but it wasn't back then? It either is or it isn't.
    I'm not a mental health professional, so I cannot say. However I would be of the opinion that everyone is subject to paraphilias (in essence abnormal or unusual sexual interests). In the vast majority of cases these are considered acceptable by society, and thus viewed as kinks, fetishes or orientations, in some they are deemed anti-social or taboo and thus mental illnesses.
    Possibly so, but you want to solve this problem? At least define it first. Treating it as a mental illness when/if it isn't helps no one.
    I suspect, and have been told, that the whole field is too riddled with politics to get an objective solution or even definition.


  • #205
    Irishcrx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    I think "pedophile" is the person who has the attraction. All of them.

    "Rapists" "Abusers" and so forth are the people who act on them.

    But "pedophile" refers to the attraction not the action I think.



    True. I also do not know how guys can be attracted to other guys, because I simply do not have that attraction myself. But that exists too. Not having an attraction to something, makes it very hard to put yourself into the head space of people who do. But it helps to try.

    Indeed, I agree I believe in always trying to look at the others persons side of things and put yourself in their shoes etc but asking anyone to put themselves in the shoes or mind of a paedophile is difficult.

    It's akin to asking someone to stand in the middle of 4 walls with huge spikes closing in on them , it's not a place I want to see.


  • #206
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Irishcrx wrote: »
    Indeed, I agree I believe in always trying to look at the others persons side of things and put yourself in their shoes etc but asking anyone to put themselves in the shoes or mind of a paedophile is difficult.

    It's akin to asking someone to stand in the middle of 4 walls with huge spikes closing in on them , it's not a place I want to see.

    I guess I relish challenges. It being difficult is not something that puts me off doing it, but making me MORE inclined to do so.


  • #207
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,408 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I'm not a mental health professional, so I cannot say. However I would be of the opinion that everyone is subject to paraphilias (in essence abnormal or unusual sexual interests). In the vast majority of cases these are considered acceptable by society, and thus viewed as kinks, fetishes or orientations, in some they are deemed anti-social or taboo and thus mental illnesses.

    Atually there's a chance that paedophilia is just an extension of a normal human attraction through a process called Neoteny.

    The basic idea is that through out our evolution we have retained the traits that are common in juvenile apes and ditched the ones that are present in adults. That's how humans can live in such close proximity. If you stuck a million gorillas or chimps into an area the size of Dublin, there'd be a slaughter. However you could do the same with juvenile apes and there would be no violence.

    Likewise, our gentleness, hairlessness loyality etc are traits that you find in juveniles.

    We also find those traits attractive in mates. Women who are young, have big eyes, ruddy cheeks etc are considered attractive. Studies have concluded that neotenized faces in women are more attractive.

    We are literally designed to find youth attractive. A side effect this is probably that some people find it too attractive or rather they find too much youth to be attractive.


  • #208
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Nuns, other priests, members of the congregation, prostitutes and of course children ..........

    so you're saying nuns and priests Are incapable of being celibate. I sincerely doubt that they are all at it.


  • #209
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    As a human being I need the touch of another human being in order to be fully satisfied, it's natural ..........

    So you would turn to rape if you coils by get any consensually then?

    I wouldn't. I know how to control my urges. I have no doubts about that.


  • #210
    Holsten
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Holsten


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Didn't see the programme, but I have a problem with these kinds of shows on principle. In my view they run the risk of normalising child abuse, even it unintentionally.
    What the hell are you on about?

    This show is pretty much the polar opposite of that. It is having people look at the situation from a logical point of view instead of an emotional one. The way these people are dealt with currently is not working and does nothing for child protection.

    By actually have the discussion in a calm, logical manner people want to try and find the best way to deal with it. It makes complete sense. There is nothing at all about this which is normalizing child abuse, the end game here is to completely eradicate all child sexual abuse.

    Refusing to talk about it is completely stupid, ignorance and down right dangerous. Same goes for any issue.


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  • #211
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Grayson wrote: »
    We are literally designed to find youth attractive.
    There's plenty of theories surrounding it and other paraphilias. Amongst them is that early sexual experiences (some very innocent and perhaps not even immediately identifiable as sexual) can imprint certain attractions or orientations. I went to an all boys boarding school after my Intercert and I can tell you that the number of classmates (who had bordered from first year) who came out was a multiple of the the supposed average of homosexual incidence (9 out of a year of 50 at last count, another school I know had 9 out of 30) - it's a major reason I am very skeptical of claims that genetics are the primary factor involved.

    Anyway, overall, I believe it close to pointless to try to discuss this topic rationally in today's World. The mental health profession appears highly politicized on these subjects and such is the public hysteria and, frankly, stupidity surrounding pedophilia that there's little chance of mature discourse.

    Look at some of some of the 'hang them all' comments even in this thread - reading them I thought society could benefit from their authors' chemical castration too, lest they pass on their intellectually inferior genes to the next generation.


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