What does middle class and working class mean to you personally?

Lapin · 26-11-2014 04:09PM

While I'm not with him 100% in relation to meritocratic opportunity, I think C.T. Whelan more or less nails it. In Ireland, class distinctions are thought of as quintessentially English: the popular impression is that rigid social class demarcation was left behind with the ending of landlordism and the demise of the Anglo-Irish ascendancy. However, the term 'class' does not imply snobbish or deference: instead it refers to the manner in which one's position in the labour market determines one's life chances. In Ireland, educational opportunities, income, health, and even mortality are strongly related to class position. Such inequalities show no signs of declining. Such advantages are also transmitted between generations.

In understanding the manner in which class inequalities are reproduced, it is necessary to distinguish between absolute and relative opportunity. While the class structure in Ireland was extremely stable from the founding of the state until 1960, subsequently a dramatic transformation was observed. This involved the contraction of farming, a reduction in unskilled manual work, and an increase in white-collar work. Substantial opportunities for upward social mobility were created. As a consequence, the professional and managerial class is drawn from diverse backgrounds. The rising tide had indeed raised all boats; however, the pattern of relative advantage remained stable, and the unskilled manual class increasings constitutes a self-recruiting bloc. Irish socieity is far from being meritocratic. The operation of class processes in Ireland provides a perfect example of the principle of 'the more things change, the more they remain the same'.

KomradeBishop · 26-11-2014 04:12PM

Social class today is a very obscured thing - nothing like it used to be in the past - but it is there, it exists.

A good way to look at it, is how it is represented in the legal system: There is a 'class' of people (not from any one identifiable industry), who wield disproportionate social, economic and political power, and who are able to gain favourable treatment in the legal system (either through political/business connections, or through vast monetary resources), as well as in the political/financial system and business in general.

There is a two-tiered legal system, where some professions and/or connected people, are effectively above the law in many regards (a good example being banking/finance, who prior to, during, and after the crisis hit, were not really held accountable/responsible to regulations/laws); that's a pretty good example of what a class divide looks like today - which is caused by inadequately written and/or unenforced laws.

A lot of the people who are the hastiest to disparage people on welfare, play-up welfare fraud, and call for cuts - while defending inadequate laws/regulations like above (putting the blame for the consequences of such inadquate laws on ordinary people, i.e. borrowers, instead of on the industries that took advantage of the situation), will often also claim there is 'no class divide'.

So it's a form of doublespeak really - promoting a de-facto form of class-warfare (that victimizes people seeking welfare, and ordinary borrowers/people, in a way that benefits the politically/financially connected/powerful class, who stand to gain from such policies), while pretending there's no such thing as a class divide (to try and delegitimize the idea, that people should focus on the 'class' of people, exploiting the rest of society, in the above ways).

We've been living through de-facto 'class warfare', in a very stark way, since the economic crisis began - that people don't really see this, given how obvious it is, is a bit depressing tbh.

nadey · 26-11-2014 04:23PM

smcgiff wrote: »

That's as bad as saying the working class and Tallaght residents are dole spongers.

Leave the tallaght heads out of this, they have enough bad press already

steddyeddy · 26-11-2014 04:28PM

smcgiff wrote: »

That's as bad as saying the working class and Tallaght residents are dole spongers.

Indeed it is but those who categorise Tallaght residences as such are given an easier time of it on Boards.

creolebelle · 26-11-2014 04:30PM

DeadHand wrote: »

There is a commonly held myth that we don't have a class system in Ireland which is rubbish- we certainly have.

It's not as well defined or relevant as the class system in the UK and it's a good deal more fluid but it exists nonetheless.

Would like to read more about this. Is there an ease of social mobility in Ireland?
The class system here in the states is rather rigid but def not as rigid as the UK

Penny Tration · 26-11-2014 04:30PM

It's quite funny to see what people class as 'working class.'

I'm working class. I'm also in permanent employment (and actually turned down three joboffers in recent months, so far from unemployable), excelled at school and have a great education. I'm also quite well spoken.

But, I guess because I come from a poor, working class Coolock family, I'm destined to be an uneducated, unemployed, tracksuit-wearer.

smcgiff · 26-11-2014 04:32PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed it is but those who categorise Tallaght residences as such are given an easier time of it on Boards.

It's lazy thinking, some lovely areas in Tallaght, especially the "village" area.

But, calling all D4 heads mummy and daddy's boys/girls is equally as lazy.

jimgoose · 26-11-2014 04:34PM

nadey wrote: »

...Working class kids have to actually work like mad to get by

Don't worry, ye're all Special too!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 26-11-2014 04:34PM

newmug wrote: »

"Classes" are nothing but b0llox. Anybody who uses them loses all credibility in my eyes.

Do you mean people who automatically judge others by their background or people who ackowledge the existence of economic classes? Because it's kind of hard to deny class does in fact exist.

smcgiff · 26-11-2014 04:34PM

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

I'm working class.

To be fair, that's probably all in your own head.

nadey · 26-11-2014 04:34PM

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

It's quite funny to see what people class as 'working class.'

I'm working class. I'm also in permanent employment (and actually turned down three joboffers in recent months, so far from unemployable), excelled at school and have a great education. I'm also quite well spoken.

But, I guess because I come from a poor, working class Coolock family, I'm destined to be an uneducated, unemployed, tracksuit-wearer.

Amen

nadey · 26-11-2014 04:38PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Don't worry, ye're all Special too!

Sure I know tha.. Srs though, upper and middle class folk that look down their noses at less well off financially should take a look in the mirror and realise you are not better than us in no way, shape or form

Penny Tration · 26-11-2014 04:38PM

smcgiff wrote: »

To be fair, that's probably all in your own head.

Can I ask what makes you think that?

jimgoose · 26-11-2014 04:39PM

nadey wrote: »

Sure I know tha.. Srs though, upper and middle class folk that look down their noses at less well off financially should take a look in the mirror and realise you are not better than us in no way, shape or form

I couldn't agree more, bass. :cool:

smcgiff · 26-11-2014 04:41PM

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

Can I ask what makes you think that?

Because you listed out key indicators as to why you would be considered Middle class.

26-11-2014 04:46PM

nadey wrote: »

Middle class and d4 heads are just spongers off mommy and daddy

Proof, if needed, that snobbery works in both directions.

nadey · 26-11-2014 04:51PM

Candie wrote: »

Proof, if needed, that snobbery works in both directions.

The snobbery from the upper class is 1000xs more. The less well off dont look down on ppl, they look up and wish to better themselves like getting a better paid job, car, new house etc. D4 ppl dont have any of them worries

smcgiff · 26-11-2014 04:51PM

Question - say someone that left school at 16, never worked, lives in social housing. Thinks going to Bingo is the highest art form. Last night they won 100m on Euro millions.

What class would you put them into today?

conorhal · 26-11-2014 04:53PM

Jingle_Balls wrote: »

It's quite funny to see what people class as 'working class.'

I'm working class. I'm also in permanent employment (and actually turned down three joboffers in recent months, so far from unemployable), excelled at school and have a great education. I'm also quite well spoken.

But, I guess because I come from a poor, working class Coolock family, I'm destined to be an uneducated, unemployed, tracksuit-wearer.

Ireland has high levels of social mobility as compared to the UK or the US.
It sounds more like your are middle class, but chose to keep the working class chip on your shoulder. :pac:

The reality these days is that class is a matter of taste as well as opportunity. The artist Grayson Perry did a really interesting series on class and art, donno if anybody saw it but he interviewed a series of people from various walks of life about their concepts of class. You could have penniless lords of the manor that live in only 4 rooms of a moth eaten stately home that were considered 'upper class' while you had millionares driving Jags that wore tracksuits who considered themselves 'working class'.

If opportunities for the advancement of working class individuals are deminishing it's down to the two new classes, the corporate elite class who's neo-liberal economic model of zero hour contracts and part time work combined with the dilution of social benefits make it impossible to get ahead, and the burgeoning lumpen prolitariat that used to be working class until the corporate elite class sold all their jobs to China in exchange for a subsistance lifestyle on benefits and who now have become so divorced from the value of work that any who fall into their sphere of influence are dragged down with them.

26-11-2014 04:55PM

nadey wrote: »

Middle classclass are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Working class kids have to actually work like mad to get by

nadey wrote: »

Sure I know tha.. Srs though, upper and middle class folk that look down their noses at less well off financially should take a look in the mirror and realise you are not better than us in no way, shape or form

nadey wrote: »

The snobbery from the upper class is 1000xs more. The less well off dont look down on ppl, they look up and wish to better themselves like getting a better paid job, car, new house etc. D4 ppl dont have any of them worries

You're doing a good job of looking down on people there because of their address. You're assuming all kinds of attitudes based on where people live, without knowing anything about them.

If anyone did that to poorer people, they'd be called on it. Reverse snobbery is still snobbery, and the very vast majority of middle class people are decent and caring people who don't look down their noses at anyone and just get on with their lives like everyone else.

Your remarks belie a bigotry you despise when directed elsewhere.

Penny Tration · 26-11-2014 05:00PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Because you listed out key indicators as to why you would be considered Middle class.

I'm also poor, and live in a crap house, in a bad area, and can't afford a car.

I have criteria that fit both working and middle class, but I'm from a working class family, so that's what I identify as.

Penny Tration · 26-11-2014 05:02PM

Candie wrote: »

You're doing a good job of looking down on people there because of their address. You're assuming all kinds of attitudes based on where people live, without knowing anything about them.

If anyone did that to poorer people, they'd be called on it. Reverse snobbery is still snobbery, and the very vast majority of middle class people are decent and caring people who don't look down their noses at anyone and just get on with their lives like everyone else.

Your remarks belie a bigotry you despise when directed elsewhere.

Yuo. I'm related to a number of very wealthy people, who all have big homes, holiday homes, are millionaires, and are still some of the loveliest people I know.

nadey · 26-11-2014 05:02PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Question - say someone that left school at 16, never worked, lives in social housing. Thinks going to Bingo is the highest art form. Last night they won 100m on Euro millions.

What class would you put them into today?

Gimme a clue

Penny Tration · 26-11-2014 05:06PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Question - say someone that left school at 16, never worked, lives in social housing. Thinks going to Bingo is the highest art form. Last night they won 100m on Euro millions.

What class would you put them into today?

Is 'lucky bast*rd' a class?

nadey · 26-11-2014 05:07PM

Candie wrote: »

You're doing a good job of looking down on people there because of their address. You're assuming all kinds of attitudes based on where people live, without knowing anything about them.

If anyone did that to poorer people, they'd be called on it. Reverse snobbery is still snobbery, and the very vast majority of middle class people are decent and caring people who don't look down their noses at anyone and just get on with their lives like everyone else.

Your remarks belie a bigotry you despise when directed elsewhere.

Point taken. But I think the likes of a healthy thinking person is in the minority in the dart line

Penny Tration · 26-11-2014 05:09PM

nadey wrote: »

Point taken. But I think the likes of a healthy thinking person is in the minority in the dart line

You're just as bad as those people you claim look down on others.

smcgiff · 26-11-2014 05:09PM

nadey wrote: »

Gimme a clue

There's not necessarily a right answer.

Jawgap · 26-11-2014 05:09PM

I think there is a 'class system' in Ireland - actually it's more like a 'caste system' and it's worse here than in the UK.

I think there are large parts of Irish society who like to attach labels to people such as 'working class,' 'middles class' etc and once the label has been attached that same segment refuse to change it no matter how your income or wealth changes, or how your social attitudes develop.

Me? - I'm firmly working class and proud of it! And I was only ever conscious of being 'working class' when I worked in Ireland!

smcgiff · 26-11-2014 05:10PM

nadey wrote: »

Point taken.

It clearly isn't.

nadey wrote: »

But I think the likes of a healthy thinking person is in the minority in the dart line

dave3004 · 26-11-2014 05:10PM

Upper class means when you go to work your name is on the building. Middle class... It's on your desk and working class it's on your shirt ðŸ˜„

What does middle class and working class mean to you personally?

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