Older generations 'pulling the ladder up behind them'

Taco Chips · 24-11-2014 02:05PM #1

Some, but not a lot of discussion in recent times about the issue of wealth transfer within older generations in this country and abroad and depriving younger groups of the same opportunities to earn, invest and enjoy the same standard of living. In the US for example the average accumulation of debt for people in their mid 20s graduating college is $28,400 yet the average graduate wage is $45,000. Seems like a great start off but the deal doesn't look so great when the burden of debt is so high.

But perhaps some more relevant examples from Ireland of direct interference by older generations in worsening the conditions for younger graduates.

Newly qualified nurses earning below minimum wage.

http://www.thejournal.ie/nurses-graduates-starting-wage-training-usi-1302260-Feb2014/

Newly employed doctors being paid 30% less than the ones already working with the HSE for doing the exact same work and hours. Not to mention NCHDs being employed on 6 month contracts and expected to move around every time.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/varadkar-described-reilly-pay-cut-for-new-consultants-as-a-mistake-claims-ihca-1.1951665

Graduate teachers facing next to no chance of securing non temporary contracts, in constant fluctuation and no prospect of it getting better. Emigrating to the UK, UAE etc... where they will be employed like proper professionals with better security.

http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/generationemigration/2013/06/14/hard-times-for-young-teachers/

3 examples of I suspect many more insidious cases where a select few privileged older executives completely sell out their younger members and absolutely no solidarity or revolt within the ranks. No one cares that those who come after them are working in markedly worse conditions, for less pay, with higher debt. Everyone feathering their own nest, no sight of the long term problems with disenfranchising entire generations and excluding them from the same quality of life they enjoyed. This is not a problem exclusive to Ireland either. In Spain, their current youths are called 'generation zero' with unemployment over 50%, no prospects and no signs of help or reversal to the crisis.

So my question: Is the current time the worst its ever been for protectionism and deprivation by older generations against younger? What is going to happen 20-30 years down the line when the upper echelons come to retirement and the younger generation is so burdened by debt and has their income diminished so much that they can't pay for pensions, healthcare, free travel passes etc?

24-11-2014 02:11PM

Unemployment for the over 40s barely increased here, along with lower interest rates plenty of people are doing as well if not better than before. It's the eejits who over-extended to buy a house and the young people with the nerve to be here in their early 20s who have borne the brunt.

Jawgap · 24-11-2014 02:17PM

Yes, because when I started my career it was all sunshine and roses with short weeks and money by the bucketload.

Everyone starting in their career has to shovel sh1t and move to take advantage of opportunities. It's called getting experience.

Too many people, in my view, emerge from uni with a Masters Degree and think 'job done - show me the money!'

If anything with cheap air travel and the interwebs it's easier to move to get experience and less of a wrench because it's easier to stay in touch with 'home.' If you are working in Ireland the motorway network helps immensely.

I do agree, however, that the level of student debt in the US is quite simply insane!

conorhal · 24-11-2014 02:43PM

It's a bit ironic that you blast pensioners for a lack of social solidarity (not much solidary from the young it seems).........

The reality is that the only people 'pulling up the ladder behind them' as you put it are the usual golden circles that have always sat at the top of it, and they aren't the pensioners. Why not ask these questions of the government that implemented the cuts or the cadre of bankers, quangos, politicians and the tossers that show up on the pages of 'VIP' magazine why these cuts have been necessary?

Taco Chips · 24-11-2014 02:46PM

conorhal wrote: »

It's a bit ironic that you blast pensioners for a lack of social solidarity (not much solidary from the young it seems).........

The reality is that the only people 'pulling up the ladder behind them' as you put it are the usual golden circles that have always sat at the top of it, and they aren't the pensioners. Why not ask these questions of the government that implemented the cuts or the cadre of bankers, quangos, politicians and the tossers that show up on the pages of 'VIP' magazine why these cuts have been necessary?

I'm not blasting pensioners. I'm criticising all of the very people you mentioned. The privileged older generations who don't giving a flying eff about the hardship they are putting young people through specifically.

AnonoBoy · 24-11-2014 02:47PM

They're pulling the ladder up behind them alright but they'll be the first over the wall.

The wall is death.

And with no ladder we'll all live forever!

24-11-2014 02:52PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, because when I started my career it was all sunshine and roses with short weeks and money by the bucketload.

Everyone starting in their career has to shovel sh1t and move to take advantage of opportunities. It's called getting experience.

Too many people, in my view, emerge from uni with a Masters Degree and think 'job done - show me the money!'

If anything with cheap air travel and the interwebs it's easier to move to get experience and less of a wrench because it's easier to stay in touch with 'home.' If you are working in Ireland the motorway network helps immensely.

I do agree, however, that the level of student debt in the US is quite simply insane!

I have mixed views about this one, its become so hard to get casual work and the barriers to becoming a financially independent adult are becoming higher and higher, if you look at the thread about first jobs lots of people mention having jobs as a young teen that's gone now and there are college student who have never had a part time job of any sort ( all caused by increasing regulation and accesses to information )

I also think there is a twilight generation who benefited from free education and went on to third level or got good jobs in the public services the bank or well unionised employment in the multinationals, all of the former have become less secure/ pay less and just wouldn't support the lifestyle they did in the past. The whole thing is conundrum its hard to know what the answerer is.

There are huge third level fees in the Uk now as well and I can see that being the next thing here.

conorhal · 24-11-2014 02:59PM

Taco Chips wrote: »

I'm not blasting pensioners. I'm criticising all of the very people you mentioned. The privileged older generations who don't giving a flying eff about the hardship they are putting young people through specifically.

But you're conflating them with pensioners which isn't accurate at all, the golden circle aren't pensioners, many aren't even that old.

I know plenty of pensioners that have taken cuts, some are reasonably well off having worked a lifetime, paid off their mortage and have independent adult children (and no doubt you'll hope tp be in similar shoes in another 30 or 40 years) but I know just as many that are struggling with the latest bill.

The reality is that most pensioners I know are raising grandkids, helping their children out with their mortage or doing things like paying their car insurance. The people that smashed the ladder with their neo liberal, amoral economic plotting have gotten off scot free and would rather a generation blame game then a socieconomic one which might leave them with questions to answer.

Taco Chips · 24-11-2014 03:14PM

I'm not conflating them with pensioners either. I said that in 20-30 years when those who are guilty ARE pensioners who is going to pay for all of the state aid they will need? I didn't make this thread about pensioner hardships either, it's about the younger generation having their prospects and quality of life diminished by the generations above them and listed examples. None of the examples I gave mentioned pensioners as the perpetrators. You are extracting an agenda from my post that isn't there.

Jawgap · 24-11-2014 03:15PM

mariaalice wrote: »

I have mixed views about this one, its become so hard to get casual work and the barriers to becoming a financially independent adult are becoming higher and higher, if you look at the thread about first jobs lots of people mention having jobs as a young teen that's gone now and there are college student who have never had a part time job of any sort ( all caused by increasing regulation and accesses to information )

I also think there is a twilight generation who benefited from free education and went on to third level or got good jobs in the public services the bank or well unionised employment in the multinationals, all of the former have become less secure/ pay less and just wouldn't support the lifestyle they did in the past. The whole thing is conundrum its hard to know what the answerer is.

There are huge third level fees in the Uk now as well and I can see that being the next thing here.

I agree with you to a point, but I do think there is more casual work out there than people realise - just teens are unwilling to do it. Yes, flipping burgers, working as kitchen hand, stacking shelves etc is bloody hard work that doesn't pay very well but it seems the 'Tiger' teens won't lower themselves to do it.

For example, I coach youth rugby (U-18s now) and I'd say aside from a few lads who have jobs working for their parents there's not one has a part-time weekend job, and yet they're flush. It's great to have the money to be able to provide things for your kids but I always wonder how much value they attach to stuff they've not had to go out and earn the money for.

Again, I'd agree with the fees thing - I can see them absolutely wrecking things here when they get around to addressing that.

SEPT 23 1989 · 24-11-2014 03:17PM

pensioners are living in a golden age today

if you are under 35 things are not going to be very pleasant when you reach that age

24-11-2014 03:18PM

conorhal wrote: »

But you're conflating them with pensioners which isn't accurate at all, the golden circle aren't pensioners, many aren't even that old.

I know plenty of pensioners that have taken cuts, some are reasonably well off having worked a lifetime, paid off their mortage and have independent adult children (and no doubt you'll hope tp be in similar shoes in another 30 or 40 years) but I know just as many that are struggling with the latest bill.

The reality is that most pensioners I know are raising grandkids, helping their children out with their mortage or doing things like paying their car insurance. The people that smashed the ladder with their neo liberal, amoral economic plotting have gotten off scot free and would rather a generation blame game then a socieconomic one which might leave them with questions to answer.

Your are forgetting one thing though all those pensioners that are helping with the mortgage or the car insurance are in a financial position to do so and the pensioners own parents would most likely not have been in a position to do that nor would they have been asked to do so.

Also for example in the UK say you decided to study civil engineering you will graduated with probably 40k to 50k in debt unless you parents pay your fees yet 40 years ago you would have gone to university with a grant and no fees, on the other had we have the era of cheap flight, the net, better health care and a safer world, so I can see both sides of the argument.

Taco Chips · 24-11-2014 03:22PM

Jawgap wrote: »

I agree with you to a point, but I do think there is more casual work out there than people realise - just teens are unwilling to do it. Yes, flipping burgers, working as kitchen hand, stacking shelves etc is bloody hard work that doesn't pay very well but it seems the 'Tiger' teens won't lower themselves to do it.

Well thats not strictly true either. Theres also the issue where all of what would have been considered entry level, low skilled manual labour jobs now have lofty conditions attached to them. Go onto jobs.ie and have a look at jobs for kitchen aids etc... see how many of them "require at least 6 months experience in the catering industry". It's the same story for jobs in retail, jobs as cleaners. Jobs that certainly do not require such experience or skill but because the market is so poor there at the moment employers can be as discriminatory as they like. This is putting squeeze on teenagers and students especially who are in education full time and therefore won't have the opportunity to collect "6 months experience in the catering industry" :roll eyes: The prevalence of 'Tiger teens' is grossly over exaggerated. Young people have more expenses, less opportunities to earn and less support from families who are constricted due to the economy and from the state. The cost of going to university has never been higher either over the last 20 years than it is now.

24-11-2014 03:26PM

Honestly don't see where you are coming from OP.

Where does a recent graduate in any discipline get to be compared to some one with a number of years experience. A graduate for most employers is a risk,
They usually have a basic grounding in their field but rarely know anything about the real world. It takes more time/training/expense to develop their experience
to the point where they are of any benefit to an employer or business/operation, after which pay will improve.

At a time things are supposed to be so difficult and credit supposed to be so hard to get, most of the graduates I know seem to be doing OK. With much better opportunities, starting conditions and pay than 20 years ago, when we were exporting most of our graduates.

But with today's relatively easy credit and low interest rates, if the generation you refer to are dumb enough to get so far in over their head in debt... sorry but, be it on their own head's.

Mr.McLovin · 24-11-2014 03:28PM

the aul bastards

The_Captain · 24-11-2014 03:33PM

323 wrote: »

Honestly don't see where you are coming from OP.

Where does a recent graduate in any discipline get to be compared to some one with a number of years experience. A graduate for most employers is a risk,
They usually have a basic grounding in their field but rarely know anything about the real world. It takes more time/training/expense to develop their experience
to the point where they are of any benefit to an employer or business/operation, after which pay will improve.

At a time things are supposed to be so difficult and credit supposed to be so hard to get, most of the graduates I know seem to be doing OK. With much better opportunities, starting conditions and pay than 20 years ago, when we were exporting most of our graduates.

But with today's relatively easy credit and low interest rates, if the generation you refer to are dumb enough to get so far in over their head in debt... sorry but, be it on their own head's.

Yeah, stupid young people should know better than to be unable to compete with the older generation on property prices and being forced to pay sky high rents to the older property-owning generation while taking wage cuts or pay freezes

Jawgap · 24-11-2014 03:35PM

Taco Chips wrote: »

Well thats not strictly true either. Theres also the issue where all of what would have been considered entry level, low skilled manual labour jobs now have lofty conditions attached to them. Go onto jobs.ie .......

See, there's your first problem

the jobs I'm talking about (casual sh1tty jobs for teens) don't get advertised online - it's the type of job you hear about through family connections, neighbours, friends' families etc or you get by going into the local shop / restaurant / pub / GAA (or rugby) club and 'pestering' the owner into giving you!

It seems to me that 'Tiger' teens are (a) not interested in expending both virtual and actual shoe leather to find these jobs and, (b) not interested in taking them, even when they fall into their laps.

Jawgap · 24-11-2014 03:41PM

323 wrote: »

Honestly don't see where you are coming from OP.

Where does a recent graduate in any discipline get to be compared to some one with a number of years experience. A graduate for most employers is a risk,
They usually have a basic grounding in their field but rarely know anything about the real world. It takes more time/training/expense to develop their experience
to the point where they are of any benefit to an employer or business/operation, after which pay will improve.

.......

One thing that definitely has changed is the definition of 'graduate' - that used to mean someone with an undergraduate degree - and a decent undergrad degree when I qualified was more than sufficient to get you a look in at most firms operating in my area of expertise.

Now, unless your touting a decent Masters (from a 'good' university, and in the upper end of the classification) you can pretty much forget it.

conorhal · 24-11-2014 03:42PM

mariaalice wrote: »

Your are forgetting one thing though all those pensioners that are helping with the mortgage or the car insurance are in a financial position to do so and the pensioners own parents would most likely not have been in a position to do that nor would they have been asked to do so.

Also for example in the UK say you decided to study civil engineering you will graduated with probably 40k to 50k in debt unless you parents pay your fees yet 40 years ago you would have gone to university with a grant and no fees, on the other had we have the era of cheap flight, the net, better health care and a safer world, so I can see both sides of the argument.

They are in a financial position to help out their kids because they have accumulated savings over a lifetime (though some I know were foolish enough to be garentours for their childrens mortages) and having paid off their homes and raised their children already their expenses are few, there's no magic money pot of stolen gold that they swiped like babies candy from the latest generation.

I don't see the easy ride the prevous generation got either, secondary schooling wasn't free for my parents generation, let alone a university education, which is why so few of their generation wen't further then the leaving. My folks emigrated twice, started a small business twice and were part of a generation that paid 70% tax and PRSI at a time when you got nothing from social welfare.

The blame for the dilution of prospects for the current generation of graduates falls IMHO on the shoulders of the EUrocrats economic neo-liberalism that wants to indulge in a race to the bottom to suit corporate interests.

24-11-2014 03:42PM

Jawgap wrote: »

See, there's your first problem

the jobs I'm talking about (casual sh1tty jobs for teens) don't get advertised online - it's the type of job you hear about through family connections, neighbours, friends' families etc or you get by going into the local shop / restaurant / pub / GAA (or rugby) club and 'pestering' the owner into giving you!

It seems to me that 'Tiger' teens are (a) not interested in expending both virtual and actual shoe leather to find these jobs and, (b) not interested in taking them, even when they fall into their laps.

Slightly off topic but that more to do with the parents not the teen, its called helicopter parenting or something like that and consists of sweeping ever obstacle out of the child path, hovering over them right down to 'helping them fill in their cao form constantly making sure the child paths is as easy as possible.

emo72 · 24-11-2014 04:15PM

Jawgap wrote: »

See, there's your first problem

the jobs I'm talking about (casual sh1tty jobs for teens) don't get advertised online - it's the type of job you hear about through family connections, neighbours, friends' families etc or you get by going into the local shop / restaurant / pub / GAA (or rugby) club and 'pestering' the owner into giving you!

It seems to me that 'Tiger' teens are (a) not interested in expending both virtual and actual shoe leather to find these jobs and, (b) not interested in taking them, even when they fall into their laps.

I would contend it's the opposite. I know loads of kids that would cut off one of their limbs to get a job in tesco or McDonald's. All my nephews and nieces would and do take any crappy job to get regular income.

I think the op has a valid point too. My kids are growing up and I'm just realising what's required of them to buy a house in Dublin so that they can live near me. It would be nice if they could expect a reasonable quality of life. Renting isn't any cheaper either.

Geuze · 24-11-2014 04:49PM

Child Benefit = three cuts

Most SW payments = two cuts

State Pensions = no cuts

Older generations 'pulling the ladder up behind them'

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