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Hard left

24567

Comments

  • #32
    grundie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭grundie


    I think it's impossible for any country to function if those in power have policies exclusively to the left or right. There has to be a mix of left and right, and nothing too extreme either way. That's just human nature. Communism has never really worked because some people always try to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit. "Some people were more equal than others" and all that.

    Those on the hard left, and hard right, don't really get that. They may have a vision of a perfect society, but that is their vision. The rest of us have a more realistic and pragmatic view of the world. Society is just too complex for one political ideology to work.


  • #33
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    To me they are a bunch of selfish people with a huge sense of entitlement. They protest taxes and spending cuts. They don't want to pay for what they use, but they are okay with our children paying for it. They think everything is a "right".
    This country is still running 6-7 billion euro deficits, we are borrowing to pay for what we have already, so we are basically forcing the next generation to pay for our services, and their own.
    I have no problem with people protesting water charges, if they have an alternative, like cutting social welfare or health expenditure, but they don't want that either. So the next time they want to get together and protest they should send a few people down to the local primary and secondary schools to explain to the next generation why they should be paying for the water and social welfare, and houses, of this generation.
    There are plenty of alternatives - and they don't have to involve balancing the budget or running up unsustainable debt; people always say there are no alternatives, or say the only valid alternatives involve budget-balancing or risking unsustainable debt, when that is not the case.

    I don't know Fís Nua very well, but from a quick look at the policies they support, they present many very good alternatives.


  • #34
    costadeldole
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 162 ✭✭costadeldole


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    i often ask myself the same question, what exactly do the like of the socalists want? im a part time sheep and suckler farmer and a full time teacher, though if u break down my working hours i do about 25 hrs work on the farm a week when school is in term . in summer im full time farming only, with a very odd day of building/construction labouring for a bit of "fun money" eg galway races or holiday in sun.

    Thing im constantly asking myself is where should i stand politically to protect my livlihood? my family is traditionally FF, i personally vote either FF or FG as most people i know that are strong FF/FG voters or party members are decent hard working and seem well rounded individualss with the same principles and values as myself ie hard work rewarded, indivdiual entrepenuership, the family farm, small local businessess being rewarded for their risk taking and adventure in business and giving employment.

    The i here these socalists and sinn fein on about the elite and the rich and taxing to the hilt, what do they want exactly, for someone to come out of scholl with absolutly no drive or determination to work hard and succeed? what do we do all go straight into supermacs or a factory and start working for minimum wage? within a generation we would be all just workers with no brilliant minds such as Tony Oreilly, Micheal Oleary, Sean Quinn.

    In school i always tell my 6th years when the last few classes of school come around to always be dilligent and hard working no matter what point they get in the LC,. hard work and good work ethic, communication skills and the drive to believe you can be anything you want through hard work will be rewarded at least thats what i always believed this country to be about and as i tell the yound adults in my class, that applys to overseas as well as ireland, more so perhaps because emigration is a constant in this country and always will be.

    i really would be worried for this nation if hard left got to government, luckily though i belive that they are very much a loud minority. They have virtually no support in rural ireland or most parts of middle class urban ireland, as in South county Dublin, Howth, Sutton, Castleknock etc
    Therefore i believe in FF/FG and Labour who have actually surprised me this term in how un left they have become.

    You are a Teacher?
    Yet you can't spell words like; applies, diligent, entrepreneurship, etc, correctly?
    I pity the young adults you teach, and impart such nonsense to.
    "hard work will be rewarded", not in this country it wont. Cronyism will be rewarded.
    You would be better giving them reality; emigrate to the UK, Canada, or Australia where there is employment for young Irish people.
    I can't take anyone seriously who lists Sean Quinn as someone to admire? You may as well add Sean Fitzpatrick to your list of heroes.
    You keep voting FF just like your family does, you know best.


  • #35
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    grundie wrote: »
    I think it's impossible for any country to function if those in power have policies exclusively to the left or right. There has to be a mix of left and right, and nothing too extreme either way. That's just human nature. Communism has never really worked because some people always try to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit. "Some people were more equal than others" and all that.

    Those on the hard left, and hard right, don't really get that. They may have a vision of a perfect society, but that is their vision. The rest of us have a more realistic and pragmatic view of the world. Society is just too complex for one political ideology to work.
    Ya the whole idea of either 'left' or 'right' being universally good/bad is nonsense - all economies on the planet are mixed economies, containing both capitalist and socialist elements, and posters who try to pretend that "any hint of capitalism is bad" or "any hint of socialism is bad", are just presenting a false dichotomy, which conflicts with reality (since there's no country which is 100% capitalist, and the countries that tried 100% socialism failed to make it work).

    So obviously, it's a matter of trying to have a successful mix of capitalist and socialist policies - enough capitalist policies to have a prosperous private economy, and enough socialist policies to have a prosperous population and to stop capitalism caving-in on itself through economic crisis.

    Ironically, you need 'socialism' for capitalism to work at its best - as you just can't have a 100% capitalist system; both words though, are rather meaningless generalizations when it comes down to it, and aren't helpful as a guide for finding the best policies.


  • #36
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

    I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

    The likes of the SP and the SWP (Joe Higgins/Paul Murphy's outfit and Boyd Barretts outfit respectively) claim to follow differing interpretations of the political doctrine of Leon Trotsky, who was an early bolshevik leader during the russian revolution, later exiled and killed by Stalin.

    I don't really have enough time to go into his theories in enough detail here, suffice to say they consist of the sort of bonkers crankology one could expect given their current proponents.


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  • #37
    dotsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    duckcfc wrote: »
    If you like your government raping you, continue to vote for right wing or close to it. If you want a fair system for everyone then left is the way to go. Sadly were all a bunch of greedy fcukers so we'll always be left with the capitalists

    Lol, I don't think you'd recognise right wing if you saw it. Irish government policies would typically range from left-wing to centre (with the bulk being centre-left).

    The only right-wing tendencies this country has ever experienced is the love-affair with the catholic church.

    On the economic front, Sinn Fein were always left-wing (sometimes far-left), Labour were traditionally a left-wing, but moved to centre-left in recent years, Fianna Fail were centre-left, as were the Greens and Fine Gael were centre (with a few ideas of centre-right, but they would never be implemented because they traditionally would have to enter power with left-wing and centre-left parties (thus a dilution of all their views), similar to the Progressive democrats.


  • #38
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    curioser wrote: »
    Second this.
    Fascinating reading and good background to the evolution of what is now the Labour Party. IIRC it details a conference of Democratic Left where Kathleen Lynch called Eric Byrne a "guttie" (both now Labour TD's).
    Also stories about current prominent Labour TD's attending camps and the like in East Germany and Cuba that were nothing but glorified knocking shops - great gas.

    Agreed, it is a great read. One of the better histories, especially of a story that for whatever reason doesn't really seem to come into public discourse much. For all that the current Labour crowd throw at SF (and I am by no means an easy defender of the shinners) it seems odd that they would forget that many in their own ranks including some TD's were up to their necks in the same sort of dodginess back in the 70's and 80's.


  • #39
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    uch wrote: »
    I Like Cake !

    The cake is a lie.


  • #40
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    costadeldole wrote: »
    You are a teacher?
    Yet you can't spell words like; applies, diligent, entrepreneurship, etc, correctly?

    It's boards, it's not work here. If you get the message across then who cares. The only poster picking apart spelling is you.


  • #41
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    costadeldole wrote: »
    You are a Teacher?
    Yet you can't spell words like; applies, diligent, entrepreneurship, etc, correctly?

    He could still be a great teacher.


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  • #42
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I would say a lot of their followers dont really understand that they themselves are actually quite right wing. The hard left get most of their vote from quite run down areas. It is these places that you would find people that are the most anti-imigration, want smaller government, low taxes, fervently pro-life and would probably bring back corporal punishment.

    They are so stupid that they do not realise that their core values are opposed to the very people they are voting for. A lot of their votership would also have quite extreme views on Northern Ireland. The likes of the Socialists, PBP and AAA would run a mile if they were questioned about Northern Ireland and privately would be extremely critical of the IRA.


  • #43
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,871 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

    I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

    I know what your getting at a lot of them seem to just make non-coordinated hippie type noise with no real direction.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • #44
    redfacedbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭redfacedbear


    In this interview with Sean Moncrieff the Socialist Party TD Ruth Coppinger outlines how she sees a socialist Ireland operating (about 8 minutes in).

    It's proper old school Soviet stuff - workers committees running businesses, nationalisation of any industry of substance, taxing 'wealth' etc.

    She does at least acknowledge that it would be impossible to implement in isolation but it is barmy all the same.


  • #45
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,760 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    i often ask myself the same question, what exactly do the like of the socalists want? im a part time sheep and suckler farmer and a full time teacher, though if u break down my working hours i do about 25 hrs work on the farm a week when school is in term . in summer im full time farming only, with a very odd day of building/construction labouring for a bit of "fun money" eg galway races or holiday in sun.

    Thing im constantly asking myself is where should i stand politically to protect my livlihood? my family is traditionally FF, i personally vote either FF or FG as most people i know that are strong FF/FG voters or party members are decent hard working and seem well rounded individualss with the same principles and values as myself ie hard work rewarded, indivdiual entrepenuership, the family farm, small local businessess being rewarded for their risk taking and adventure in business and giving employment.

    The i here these socalists and sinn fein on about the elite and the rich and taxing to the hilt, what do they want exactly, for someone to come out of scholl with absolutly no drive or determination to work hard and succeed? what do we do all go straight into supermacs or a factory and start working for minimum wage? within a generation we would be all just workers with no brilliant minds such as Tony Oreilly, Micheal Oleary, Sean Quinn.

    In school i always tell my 6th years when the last few classes of school come around to always be dilligent and hard working no matter what point they get in the LC,. hard work and good work ethic, communication skills and the drive to believe you can be anything you want through hard work will be rewarded at least thats what i always believed this country to be about and as i tell the yound adults in my class, that applys to overseas as well as ireland, more so perhaps because emigration is a constant in this country and always will be.

    i really would be worried for this nation if hard left got to government, luckily though i belive that they are very much a loud minority. They have virtually no support in rural ireland or most parts of middle class urban ireland, as in South county Dublin, Howth, Sutton, Castleknock etc
    Therefore i believe in FF/FG and Labour who have actually surprised me this term in how un left they have become.

    I'm not sure Dickie but given what FF/FG/Labour have done to this country economically and how they've cut teachers wages again and again I'm not sure how you think voting for them protects your interests :confused:


  • #46
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I suppose it depends on how much good you think Socialism is. The UK went hard left in 1948, nationalising everything: some of it was done OK (NHS, British Rail), and some of it wasn't (mines, British Leyland).

    One of the problems there (in my view) is that governments can't react quickly to changes in markets, which goes some way to explaining what happened in the UK. The global coal market can be volatile, and when it comes to cars, global competition is fierce and no government should be in that business. When it comes to a health service, on the other hand ... have a look at the USA for how well a "market" works for that. :eek:

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



  • #47
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Mariaalice: the Left spends too much time b!tching about other factions of the Left to be able to do anything worthwhile. They cannot unite and are doomed to fail.


  • #48
    Nino Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Nino Brown


    bnt wrote: »
    When it comes to a health service, on the other hand ... have a look at the USA for how well a "market" works for that. :eek:

    US healthcare is anything but a free market, Medicare and Medicaid hugely distort the market and increases prices. Combined they cost $1 trillion in 2012, you can't put that of government money into anything and call it a free market.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    redfacedbear wrote: »
    In this interview with Sean Moncrieff the Socialist Party TD Ruth Coppinger outlines how she sees a socialist Ireland operating (about 8 minutes in).

    It's proper old school Soviet stuff - workers committees running businesses, nationalisation of any industry of substance, taxing 'wealth' etc.

    She does at least acknowledge that it would be impossible to implement in isolation but it is barmy all the same.

    That brilliant the next time I am in work I will suggest we set up a workers committee to run the place :P


  • #50
    BigBrownBear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭BigBrownBear


    Probably one of the best examples of extreme left wing ideology in the 'British Isles' was the infiltration of the British Labour Party by Militant Tendancy.
    These were a Trotksyist movement intent on taking over the Labour Party. They were expelled after some heated Labour Party conferences.

    They existed to a lesser extent within the Irish Labour Party in the mid to late 80;s

    But winning control of Liverpool City Council showed them up for the incompetents they were.
    They over spent so much, with disregard to income, that they had to put 30,000 council employees on protective notice.
    When they realised they couldn't pay them they had to go 'cap in hand' to look for funds from central government


  • #51
    adocholiday
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭adocholiday


    Anyone who thinks FF or FG are right wing is deluded. It's a terrible pity we don't have a right wing party in Ireland. Badly needed counter point


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  • #52
    thelad95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,812 ✭✭✭thelad95


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Genuine question what do the hard left in Irish politics want too happen

    I know all the usual stereotype of tax the rich etc but that's just a stereotype and there has to be more to it that that, or are they just a collection of protesters with no real policies.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1410#


  • #53
    Dickie10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    i was only throwing out my opinion in a hurry, not writing a novel! but u get the jist, i did say that good work ethic, and determination to succeed will be of huge benefit in london, usa, or australia, look at the strides the irish in america made in the 19th /early twentieth century.

    Sean Quinn is a most admirable man, the employment he gave to the poor region of the north west was nothing short of a miracle and to do it all through pure hard work and good business acumen without any state help. id like to see some of these water meter protesters get themselves off the dole and do that, some chance.


  • #54
    BigBrownBear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭BigBrownBear


    adocholiday wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks FF or FG are right wing is deluded. It's a terrible pity we don't have a right wing party in Ireland. Badly needed counter point

    Interesting point. How right wing do you want them to be


  • #55
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,195 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    adocholiday wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks FF or FG are right wing is deluded. It's a terrible pity we don't have a right wing party in Ireland. Badly needed counter point

    A UKIP style party is it?


  • #56
    Dickie10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    i suppose id just be very afraid of what a leftist/socalist government would do to rural ireland id imagine that they would not rest until they had the place like the surface of the moon! what would there views be on the future of the irish food industry for instance?

    on the point of public sector pay cuts, yes it wasnt nice but we all had to ake some cuts . imo it was far less than the private sector. its just the fact that we had many very good years in this country and were on the road to recovery again, people would actually be not that badly off only for the millstone of huge mortgages around there necks.
    I think the irish government really need to start building council houses again, there were people who got mortgages and bought houses who shouldnt have been let buy cars in the last boom.


  • #57
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    I was hoping this would be a thread about the guy that sits in the passenger seat in rally cars and gives directions.

    I love that guy.

    I wonder how you go about getting that job?

    Do you start as a back seat driver and work your way up?


  • #58
    Don't Chute!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Don't Chute!


    They have not got the slightest ****ing clue what they are talking about or how to run a country and if they ever get into power we are in serious, serious trouble.


  • #59
    dermabrasion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 473 ✭✭dermabrasion


    I hate what's happening now: polarization. Lots of points made for any given polemic, be it on the left or the right. I worry that we're going to blow it, just as we emerge with a chance to redefine what this country is or can be. I do not want to be the US, with morons on TV spouting extreme views leading to a failed government system.
    I think common sense has to prevail, and the hard left and the hard right do not have it. I want to live in a country that is meritocracy, that rewards hard work and ingenuity, fosters community and belonging. We support our weakest, oldest, youngest and marginalized. Yet, don't be taken for gobS%#es by those who decide to skim it as a lifestyle choice, or those that choose not contribute back what they get.
    There are countries like this, which engage in mature discussion. Not the crap coming across our screens recently.


  • #60
    AboutaWeekAgo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭AboutaWeekAgo


    black and amber wrote: »
    They have not got the slightest ****ing clue what they are talking about or how to run a country and if they ever get into power we are in serious, serious trouble.

    Sure we've been governed by people who don't have a clue how to run a country for years and years. Are we in serious trouble now?


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  • #61
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,240 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »
    Sure we've been governed by people who don't have a clue how to run a country for years and years. Are we in serious trouble now?

    We've seen nothing yet compared to what would happen if the far-left got into power.


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