EU states can refuse benefits to migrants, top court rules

DeadHand · 14-11-2014 09:08AM

It's a simplistic argument I know but my belief would be if a person has lived in and contributed to a country for a significant period of time and/or their families have this person has a greater entitlement to financial support from that country than a new arrival.

If a person arrives in this country as an economic migrant and finds themselves in irredeemable unemployment they should be encouraged to find their way home, with state support if neccessary.

Bear in mind, this country still needs to borrow money for it's day to day running.

Not that these issues will ever be debated logically or debated at all by our politicians. Immigration has irreversibly changed the country over the last decade. It's the single biggest social issue of recent times. It's hardly been mentioned in the Dail.

Official argument on this issue is stifled utterly. The professionally offended have poisoned the debate by throwing the modern day witchcraft accusation that is a racism accusation at anyone who strays from the prevailing dogma. Our fundamentally cowardly political class won't touch this genuine issue with the proverbial barge pole as a result.

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 11:16AM

DeadHand wrote: »

It's a simplistic argument I know but my belief would be if a person has lived in and contributed to a country for a significant period of time and/or their families have this person has a greater entitlement to financial support from that country than a new arrival.

If a person arrives in this country as an economic migrant and finds themselves in irredeemable unemployment they should be encouraged to find their way home, with state support if neccessary.

Bear in mind, this country still needs to borrow money for it's day to day running.

Not that these issues will ever be debated logically or debated at all by our politicians. Immigration has irreversibly changed the country over the last decade. It's the single biggest social issue of recent times. It's hardly been mentioned in the Dail.

Official argument on this issue is stifled utterly. The professionally offended have poisoned the debate by throwing the modern day witchcraft accusation that is a racism accusation at anyone who strays from the prevailing dogma. Our fundamentally cowardly political class won't touch this genuine issue with the proverbial barge pole as a result.

Just a few facts a new arrival is not entitled to any social welfare (exception for persons granted international protection). For a non EEA national who arrives with correct working permission who becomes unemployed after a short time they would in most cases have no entitlement to welfare. A EEA national and a returning or first time in Ireland citizen, must satisfy Habitial Residence rule, or have the required payments to PRSI. As the recent decision from Europe says welfare can be refused if the person is a welfare tourist. So in my view the rules are tight but of course fraud and lies will always be part of a billion euro system.

It is not racist to want strict control on immigration be that EU or rest of world. It is no wrong to say immigration cost the welfare budget, but it is wrong to on the other hand ignore the many non nationals who work and pay tax. It is not wrong to point out fraud or issues with the system but it is wrong to only point that finger at those not from Ireland.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 11:22AM

Genuine question, what is the situation if someone arrives pregnant? I think that would change their entitlements immediately?

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 11:25AM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

Genuine question, what is the situation if someone arrives pregnant? I think that would change their entitlements immediately?

Arrives from where? Family payments must be paid ignoring HR rules to EU citizens, but my view of recent decision from Europe Ireland may be able to say sorry but you are welfare tourist bye bye.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 11:35AM

My apologies. If someone arrives who is a non-national whether it be an EU citizen or a non EU citizen?

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 11:57AM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

My apologies. If someone arrives who is a non-national whether it be an EU citizen or a non EU citizen?

Non EU no right to any payment in general terms. EU right to family payments but can be refused if welfare tourist.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 12:04PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Non EU no right to any payment in general terms. EU right to family payments but can be refused if welfare tourist.

Things probably change again then if there is an asylum application.

AudreyHepburn · 14-11-2014 12:05PM

Mr_Red wrote: »

I think this is excellent news for Ireland. It will weed out the people who arrive here just for the sake of benefits rather then contributing to the country

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-states-can-refuse-benefits-to-migrants-top-court-rules-1.1996456

I'd be more supportive if it was applied to the many Irish spongers in the dole queue too.

There's no point in pretending that only migrants cheat the system.

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 12:14PM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

Things probably change again then if there is an asylum application.

If there is an Asylum application then the person will be provided direct provision plus €19 a week with extra €10 per week for the child. No children's allowance.

RobYourBuilder · 14-11-2014 12:14PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'd be more supportive if it was applied to the many Irish spongers in the dole queue too.

There's no point in pretending that only migrants cheat the system.

The Romanian woman in Germany was refused benefits because she was not actively searching for work; not because she was non German. In Ireland, if a Jobseeker cannot provide proof that are actively seeking work, social welfare slashes their payments in increments until they can prove that they are.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 12:23PM

If a person comes here on an asylum application then if they have a child here, that child is Irish so in turn it's unlikely you can remove a family with that child?

Oh plenty of cheaters of the system here for sure but that's enough for us to deal with as a country.

I don't know what the answer is. A lot of asylum seekers come from horrific situations so how can you turn them away, we would be lacking in any human compassion to do that but on the other hand we will all drown if we don't draw a line somewhere. The ladies in the waiting room of the maternity that I saw the other day, their children were beautiful and they deserve the right to have a good life.

Not everyone who has an opinion on this subject is lacking in human compassion but it's thrown at us and then the discussion can never happen on a political platform.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 12:23PM

If a person comes here on an asylum application then if they have a child here, that child is Irish so in turn it's unlikely you can remove a family with that child?

Oh plenty of cheaters of the system here for sure but that's enough for us to deal with as a country.

I don't know what the answer is. A lot of asylum seekers come from horrific situations so how can you turn them away, we would be lacking in any human compassion to do that but on the other hand we will all drown if we don't draw a line somewhere. The ladies in the waiting room of the maternity that I saw the other day, their children were beautiful and they deserve the right to have a good life.

Not everyone who has an opinion on this subject is lacking in human compassion but it's thrown at us and so the discussion can never happen on a political platform.

RobYourBuilder · 14-11-2014 12:39PM

If a person comes here on an asylum application then if they have a child here, that child is Irish so in turn it's unlikely you can remove a family with that child?

A kid born in Ireland is not automatically Irish. The parent must be an Irish/British citizen or legally resident here for three of the previous four years.

A lot of asylum seekers come from horrific situations so how can you turn them away, we would be lacking in any human compassion to do that but on the other hand we will all drown if we don't draw a line somewhere.

Some do. The vast majority are economic migrants chancing their arm.

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 12:45PM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

If a person comes here on an asylum application then if they have a child here, that child is Irish so in turn it's unlikely you can remove a family with that child?

Oh plenty of cheaters of the system here for sure but that's enough for us to deal with as a country.

I don't know what the answer is. A lot of asylum seekers come from horrific situations so how can you turn them away, we would be lacking in any human compassion to do that but on the other hand we will all drown if we don't draw a line somewhere. The ladies in the waiting room of the maternity that I saw the other day, their children were beautiful and they deserve the right to have a good life.

Not everyone who has an opinion on this subject is lacking in human compassion but it's thrown at us and so the discussion can never happen on a political platform.

O so a child is Irish in all cases. The constitution would disagree with you as with the relevant legislation.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 12:48PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

O so a child is Irish in all cases. The constitution would disagree with you as with the relevant legislation.

No need to be smart. This is a discussion, I'm no expert so I stand corrected.

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 12:51PM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

No need to be smart. This is a discussion, I'm no expert so I stand corrected.

So I can't deliver my points as I wish. Yes I was smart of you don't like me being smart won't be much fun in the discussion. If you make a statement of fact that's very wrong expect smart.

NewYork1979 · 14-11-2014 12:55PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So I can't deliver my points as I wish. Yes I was smart of you don't like me being smart won't be much fun in the discussion. If you make a statement of fact that's very wrong expect smart.

Knock yourself out being smart online.

anothernight · 14-11-2014 06:22PM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

If a person comes here on an asylum application then if they have a child here, that child is Irish so in turn it's unlikely you can remove a family with that child?

Fairly sure they changed the automatic Irish passport entitlement about a decade ago.

reprise · 14-11-2014 06:47PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'd be more supportive if it was applied to the many Irish spongers in the dole queue too.

There's no point in pretending that only migrants cheat the system.

Which is a great excuse to do nothing.

Pro Hoc Vice · 14-11-2014 07:17PM

NewYork1979 wrote: »

Knock yourself out being smart online.

I just looked at other posts I get it now accountant, sorry you don't get humour.

Drakares · 14-11-2014 09:38PM

Nodin wrote: »

For not the first time - You Cannot Arrive And Claim.

Ehhh yes you can. A polish girl I know arrived without a job and just signed on in Mullingar without having done a tap before hand. This is not hearsay, I know her quite well. Nothing contributed to Irish society, just moved here and signed on.

Nodin · 14-11-2014 09:39PM

Drakares wrote: »

Ehhh yes you can. A polish girl I know arrived without a job and just signed on in Mullingar without having done a tap before hand. This is not hearsay, I know her quite well. Nothing contributed to Irish society, just moved here and signed on.

You can't. It Cannot Be Done.

reprise · 14-11-2014 09:51PM

Nodin wrote: »

You can't. It Cannot Be Done.

Are you saying Drakares is a liar?

Pro Hoc Vice · 15-11-2014 09:28AM

Drakares wrote: »

Ehhh yes you can. A polish girl I know arrived without a job and just signed on in Mullingar without having done a tap before hand. This is not hearsay, I know her quite well. Nothing contributed to Irish society, just moved here and signed on.

I have heard of such cases in everycase i heard about it involved either signing on with no payment to register with FAS or it involved a person who could satisfy HR through some connection example the whole family had moved some years before and the person was finishing out education before moving to ireland, or the more usual explanation fraud or the SW employee did not know the rules.

jank · 16-11-2014 11:49AM

Nodin wrote: »

You can't. It Cannot Be Done.

Technically yes, but there are lots of loopholes and checks are lax to say the least in some cases.

EU states can refuse benefits to migrants, top court rules

Comments