Does personal responsibility for one's situation exist in Ireland?

Kermit.de.frog · 13-11-2014 04:34AM #1

The government this, the government that....look at what the government did, what they are doing and why they shouldn't do it.

These are the arguments I hear literally every day from friends and all sorts. A lot of them have mortgages and are now in trouble, some are on the dole and have lost some income.

I do wonder who frog marched the mortgage holders in to a bank to take out a loan they could not afford and who has these people dependent on the dole when you look at their lives in totality.

It just makes me think does anyone (other than the government) take any personal responsibility for the situation they are in in their own lives? To paraphrase the Nyberg report on the crash - "Never mind the government, the Irish people went mad".

Unpopular to say but I believe the situation the country is in is more (note I do not say government and regulators did not screw up) down to collective personal wrecklessness and fecklessness than anything a government has done.

I guess people need scapegoats to divert from their own failings. I don't think this is a distinctly Irish mentality but I do think it comes across stronger in this country that it is always other peoples (preferably powerful and wealthier) fault. I guess begrudgery also feeds in to this.

What is your thesis on this assumption?

jank · 13-11-2014 05:01AM

I have said it before and I'll say it again. We are not a serious people. Everything is a crisis and everything is someone else's fault. Like children in a playground. I thought the last crash would be the time to grow up but it seems not. Populism rules. Tbh most people have no idea how the world works.

The Strawman Argument · 13-11-2014 05:03AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It just makes me think does anyone (other than the government) take any personal responsibility for the situation they are in in their own lives?

...the government do accept personal responsibility for their sh*t?

Kermit.de.frog · 13-11-2014 05:11AM

The Strawman Argument wrote: »

...the government do accept personal responsibility for their sh*t?

Not a fan by any means of the previous crowd but the previous government have publically accepted and apologised for their failings and took their punishment at the polls. That is a simple fact. And it occurs to me it is a damn sight more responsibility than a lot of people in this country want to take.

Just my observation.

Merkin · 13-11-2014 05:18AM

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The corrupt feckers in the gubberment let it be known that it was a free for all and the Irish public did what we do best and followed unquestioningly like legally blind sheep because that's what we always do.

KERSPLAT! · 13-11-2014 05:24AM

Merkin wrote: »

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The corrupt feckers in the gubberment let it be known that it was a free for all and the Irish public did what we do best and followed unquestioningly like legally blind sheep because that's what we always do.

Yup, everyone had a part to play, from the government to regulators to the people themselves.

I suppose the worst thing is, we the people probably won't change and neither will the government. We may be on the up, and that's great, but the level of cronyism and corruption is mind blowing. Come back in twenty years or so and it'll be the same craic again

BetterThanThou · 13-11-2014 05:32AM

No one will ever think the government is good, in any country. The amount of people I've heard that are lifetime dole claimers complaining about the government messing up the country isn't even funny at this point. They're a huge part of the problem for not getting off their asses and looking for a job. The amount of people who I've heard say "There's no jobs out there." is insane, especially when I know the people saying this have never even sent in one CV. And don't even get me started on the insane amount of spending people used to do, especially when it came to getting loans, hell, even people on the welfare were getting loans from loan sharks. The government is grand, they can only do so much with what they're given, they can't get the country out of debt without raising taxes a little.

Kermit.de.frog · 13-11-2014 05:43AM

People on the dole were getting 220 per week at one stage - and yet they claim they never benefited. Public servants were walking in and out of government buildings every couple of years with 10% + pay increases and yet they claim they did not benefit. Workers in the private sector had very low taxes and yet they claim they did not benefit.

All bull****. To varying degrees everyone got a slice of the pie. And now it is payback time and they moan about water charges when every other country pays far more for than they are being asked. Where are all the protesters against such high variable rate mortgage interest!? Oh yeah they are at work digging the country out of the mess. Seems only people on the dole have the time to go out and protest instead of using that time to find a job.

I don't care if someone is a street sweeper or bin collector. They earn a hell of a lot more respect from me than someone sitting on their ass moaning about the government.

Adamantium · 13-11-2014 05:54AM

It's particularly frustrating/maddening when you have issues (health for example) that you're doing everything to control and have to listen to others banging on/others refusing to fix their own problems that are fixable with some basic ****ing discipline, they'll have all the answers to everybody elses problems (government included) except their own.

There is a good saying "If you divided all the money equally among all the peoples of the world, it'd quickly end up back in the pockets of the original people everytime"

Revoker88 · 13-11-2014 06:02AM

Weird i keep seeing something on AH as well....posts saying people should have not taken about mortgages they cant afford!!

Considering most people COULD afford these mortgage when they got them i find it a very strange thing to say,do you not agree OP? It was only later when s**t really hit the fan people couldnt afford to pay,so very few took a mortgages out with the knowledge they could not pay them down the line.

Of course if everyone had known things were gonna go the way they did they wouldnt have taken those mortgages,and i reckon the banks would not have lent them either.

Also the government at the time....soft landings in the property market and all that. The leader of our country at the time said anybody who didnt think soft landing was gonna happen in property market should lock themselves in a dark room and shoot themselves. FG were not in power at the time ill grant you that,but where was the opposition to what FF were doing?? Answer is there wasnt any credible political opposition at the time,i have no doubt our political classes have failed us over the last 10-20 years.

dissed doc · 13-11-2014 06:55AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I guess people need scapegoats to divert from their own failings. I don't think this is a distinctly Irish mentality but I do think it comes across stronger in this country that it is always other peoples (preferably powerful and wealthier) fault. I guess begrudgery also feeds in to this.

What is your thesis on this assumption?

I agree with this, it is not a distinctly Irish thing, it is also very much in the UK. The level of socialist expectation is huge (government should pay for my house, car, unemployment, holidays, everything etc ., ), compared to the alledgedly socialist "europeans".

It probably comes from being isolated and small, so similar attitudes exist along the top of the europe's distant edge, like Norway, Sweden, etc., . It is a completely different story on the continent, because I think that goverments, borders, etc., have changed so much that there is no "all powerful government" expectation.

Kermit.de.frog · 13-11-2014 07:12AM

You see the problem here is that there are people calling for debt forgiveness. What that means is that people like me and the vast majority would be asked to pay for the mortgage of someone who bought at the height of the boom.

In effect I would be asked to pay for my neighbours mortgage. So when I drive to work early in the morning I am doing so not only to keep a roof over my head but also for my feckless neighbour who now need not worry about his/her mortgage.

That is not right. That is not fair. That should not happen.

The Backwards Man · 13-11-2014 07:14AM

A spaceman walks into any town in Ireland in the early 00s

'My, you all have such wonderful houses ', he says to a local, 'could you tell me what the main industry is around here?'

'We build houses', says the local triumphantly.

The spaceman is bewildered.

timetogo · 13-11-2014 07:15AM

Personal responsibility does exist in Ireland. Not everybody blames the government for everything.

Blaming somebody else is an easy choice. If you do that there's nothing you can do to make you lot in life better. If you don't you've got some work to do. The first option is the one a lot of people go for.

Like other posters here I know some people who rant and rave about the government for everything. Generally the people not ranting and raving are those that are too busy trying to get ahead.

Admittedly the government do seem to cock up a hell of a lot.

It's kind of depressing though. The same people who gave out about Fianna Fail are now giving out about FG and I guarantee they'll be ranting about the next one.

Revoker88 · 13-11-2014 07:40AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You see the problem here is that there are people calling for debt forgiveness. What that means is that people like me and the vast majority would be asked to pay for the mortgage of someone who bought at the height of the boom.

In effect I would be asked to pay for my neighbours mortgage. So when I drive to work early in the morning I am doing so not only to keep a roof over my head but also for my feckless neighbour who now need not worry about his/her mortgage.

That is not right. That is not fair. That should not happen.

Why would you pay your neighbors mortgage?

You might pay more taxes because the government(s) nationalised the banks (after they went bust)thus putting the banks bad loans on the books of the country. Whos fault is that? Not your neighbors imo

Grayson · 13-11-2014 09:01AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People on the dole were getting 220 per week at one stage - and yet they claim they never benefited. Public servants were walking in and out of government buildings every couple of years with 10% + pay increases and yet they claim they did not benefit. Workers in the private sector had very low taxes and yet they claim they did not benefit.

All bull****. To varying degrees everyone got a slice of the pie.

people on low income who were priced out by rising house prices and rising prices didn't really benefit. Minimum wage went up alright but so did everything else.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not a fan by any means of the previous crowd but the previous government have publically accepted and apologised for their failings

1) when did that happen? I heard Bertie said his biggest regret was not getting a stadium built.

2) they said sorry. Guess that's all ok.

lazybones32 · 13-11-2014 10:05AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The government this, the government that....look at what the government did, what they are doing and why they shouldn't do it.

These are the arguments I hear literally every day from friends and all sorts. A lot of them have mortgages and are now in trouble, some are on the dole and have lost some income.

I do wonder who frog marched the mortgage holders in to a bank to take out a loan they could not afford and who has these people dependent on the dole when you look at their lives in totality.

It just makes me think does anyone (other than the government) take any personal responsibility for the situation they are in in their own lives? To paraphrase the Nyberg report on the crash - "Never mind the government, the Irish people went mad".

Unpopular to say but I believe the situation the country is in is more (note I do not say government and regulators did not screw up) down to collective personal wrecklessness and fecklessness than anything a government has done.

I guess people need scapegoats to divert from their own failings. I don't think this is a distinctly Irish mentality but I do think it comes across stronger in this country that it is always other peoples (preferably powerful and wealthier) fault. I guess begrudgery also feeds in to this.

What is your thesis on this assumption?

Yes, people took mortgages they shouldn't have but the banks were only too willing to give them money and a lot of the time were pressuring people to take mortgages. I went looking for a small loan during the boom and I had to fight with the f**kers 'cos they wanted to give me substantially more.

The previous and current Govt. are guilty to a large degree in all this too and your attempt to focus solely on personal fault sounds a bit blue-shirty and not considered.

"Heavy is the head that wears the Crown" - Prop Joe

13-11-2014 10:16AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You see the problem here is that there are people calling for debt forgiveness. What that means is that people like me and the vast majority would be asked to pay for the mortgage of someone who bought at the height of the boom.

In effect I would be asked to pay for my neighbours mortgage. So when I drive to work early in the morning I am doing so not only to keep a roof over my head but also for my feckless neighbour who now need not worry about his/her mortgage.

That is not right. That is not fair. That should not happen.

There has not been any mass debt forgiveness a small but important point.

Am the only one who had never come across anyone trying to keep up with the Jones and got themselves in to debt for the sake of appearance's neither family, neighbours, or friends.

Jawgap · 13-11-2014 10:22AM

the simple answer to the original question is 'yes' - starting from the top down through political, civic and professional life in Ireland there is zero (or effectively zero) accountability.

Saying that every time an election rolls around we endorse the prevailing approach because our lack of accountability is only matched by our fear of, or unwillingness to, change.

Finally, we too often confuse parochialism for community - we think we've plenty of the latter when it's actually the former we're riddled with.

As for the whole mortgage thing - it's time for people to grow up - they borrowed they should pay it back. No one 'made' them borrow - it's not like people woke up one morning and saw that someone had put €300k in their bank accounts to 'rest' a while. Anyone who over-borrowed, gambled that wages and the housing market would keep rising - they lost and now it seems the rest of us (as in those who were sensible enough to live well within their means) are expected to bail them out.

If the wages and the housing market had continued upwards ever upwards would the same crowd be squealing as loudly to make a greater contribution from their speculative windfall? I somehow doubt it.

_Kaiser_ · 13-11-2014 10:28AM

jank wrote: »

I have said it before and I'll say it again. We are not a serious people. Everything is a crisis and everything is someone else's fault. Like children in a playground. I thought the last crash would be the time to grow up but it seems not. Populism rules. Tbh most people have no idea how the world works.

Spot on TBH...

Bottom line really is that Ireland wasn't ready for "Independence" and when we did finally get it, we couldn't get rid of it again fast enough...

- First we handed it off to the Church who held the social/cultural development of the country back for decades while abusing generations of Irish kids and single mothers etc. FFS, condoms weren't even freely available here until the early 90s!

- Then when that grip finally started to loosen, we handed it off to EU in return for a few quid and some (tolled) roads, but we (along with the other smaller countries in the club) have certainly paid the price for that one in the last few years

- In between we've floated between FF and FG.. two parties that should just merge and get it over with and are just as corrupt and incompetent as each other, yet there's still a large amount of people out there who still buy in to their Civil War era nonsense and will vote for them no matter what they do based on nothing more than "it's who mammy and daddy voted for" or "they got me my planning permission"

- We run the country (from Government, to Gardai, to Civil Service to pretty much everything else) on the "it'll be grand approach", resulting in the country stumbling from one mess to another where nothing is done properly and everything costs twice as much as it should and takes twice as long. Add in the "it depends who you get" attitude and it makes this even worse

- The reason our elected officials and their mates/families/hangers-on get away with stuffing their pockets and scandal after scandal is because there's a lot of people that still admire that "cute hoor" attitude, and secretly admit to themselves that they'd do exactly the same if they had the opportunity/balls/neck

- We spend far too much time trying to either impress our neighbours or bothering ourselves with what they might be getting/getting away with that we're not. This gives those in power endless opportunities to play one side off against the other (be it employed vs unemployed, middle class vs working class, public vs private sectors etc) while the status quo trundles along

- Average Paddy and Mary doesn't like change, so anything or anyone that doesn't fit in to the status quo is shouted down or belittled - which of course is also why we continue to flip between the two incompetent main parties in this country. They also have no interest in politics or civics unless it affects or directly benefits them personally which is why we have so many one-issue unqualified gombeens collecting ridiculous salaries in the playground we call a parliament

- The late 80s/early 90s US culture that swept in to this country and promised that everything can be solved by counselling (or suing!) and that no-one is actually to blame or responsible for their choices in life was embraced wholeheartedly by much of Irish society.. now they could "legitimately" blame someone else for everything because Sally Jessy, Dr Phil and Geraldo said so! It also gave our "leaders" an out as well of course as they can now blame the EU for all the unpopular decisions.

It's why people digging themselves into massive debts with mortgages they couldn't afford was the bank's/government's/their friends fault, it's why little Johnny isn't a scumbag but just from a broken home or disadvantaged, and why the country has become a politically correct farce where you have people and groups actively looking to take offence at every opportunity

... and as you say, despite a recession that our grandchildren will still be paying for and despite another generation being forced abroad to survive, most people have learned nothing! Instead they're busy inflating another property bubble - eagerly cheered on by an incompetent government that is already thinking about what other populist nonsense might get it reelected in 2016.

Until the people of Ireland grow up and take an interest and responsibility for their OWN lives they certainly won't do so for the welfare and best interests of the country as a whole but I won't be holding my breath. Those who have the opportunity and drive will continue to get out, the rest of us who are tied by commitments will just have to endure it

Maybe the IW protests which have evolved into a larger expression of dissatisfaction with the status quo will make a difference. I really think it could be a turning point if the people see it for what it is and take note of the government's panicked reaction and increasingly desperate attempts to discredit the protestors. This is about a lot more than a few hundred quid for water, it could potentially help define where this country goes next.

am i bovvered · 13-11-2014 10:42AM

Jawgap wrote: »

the simple answer to the original question is 'yes' - starting from the top down through political, civic and professional life in Ireland there is zero (or effectively zero) accountability.

Saying that every time an election rolls around we endorse the prevailing approach because our lack of accountability is only matched by our fear of, or unwillingness to, change.

Finally, we too often confuse parochialism for community - we think we've plenty of the latter when it's actually the former we're riddled with.

As for the whole mortgage thing - it's time for people to grow up - they borrowed they should pay it back. No one 'made' them borrow - it's not like people woke up one morning and saw that someone had put €300k in their bank accounts to 'rest' a while. Anyone who over-borrowed, gambled that wages and the housing market would keep rising - they lost and now it seems the rest of us (as in those who were sensible enough to live well within their means) are expected to bail them out.

If the wages and the housing market had continued upwards ever upwards would the same crowd be squealing as loudly to make a greater contribution from their speculative windfall? I somehow doubt it.

Totally agree with the above, and this is speaking as someone who did gamble on the housing market. A bad decision that is my own fault and for which I have to pay the price, I certainly do not expect debt forgiveness. Like Jawgap said if it had paid off I would have paid out the correct tax and probably been feeling great about how clever I was

The only gripe with the government
I have is the change regarding the tax allowance on interest allowable on a rental property. Ever other business is allowed to write off 100% of the legitimate interest expenses (this was the case when I invested, and factored into my decision) then the gov changed that to 75%. I know of no other business where this applies, so it seems unfair.
But to answer the OP, my fault, and I am working as hard as I can to see it through and pay my debts.

Quin_Dub · 13-11-2014 11:00AM

As other posters have said, fundamentally we are a very immature country.

Whether it's some weird throwback to Imperialism or not is a moot point but the prevailing attitude is one of "them" vs. "us" rather then simply seeing it as "Us" as it should be.

The joy of the cute hoor and getting one over on "them" and so on is just pervasive.

The continued re-election of TD's across the country who have been repeatedly and undeniable found with their hand in the till clearly shows how we view petty corruption -

We think it's a bit cool, and quietly admire the person for their ability to pull the wool over someones eyes , all the while forgetting that it's OUR money that they are stealing...

Every problem is seen as a result of someone elses action or inaction in the first case.

Bottom line , everything that happens in your life is your responsibility - Of course , other factors are at play and Government policy can impact the environment in which you live. But the reality is that it's your own responsibility to inform yourself properly , weigh up all the risks and rewards and put in place mitigation to reduce the risk..

But - If the worst happens and you lose your job , Mortgages rates spike or whatever.. The 1st place to look is at yourself and how you should have seen it coming and protected yourself..

In Ireland, the 1st response is "Who did this to me , who can I blame?"

Until we grow up and learn to wear our successes and failures equally we are going to continue to make the same mistakes....

cletus van damme · 13-11-2014 11:02AM

Hi Kermit

I’ll take the time to answer your point – I’ll answer this genuinely assuming you are not on a wind-up.

But firstly Nyberg wrote a report – he is not the pope : he is not infallible. In my opinion his report was premature in a rush to get an “answer” to our woe. I also don’t accept what he said in some cases.
We had our own report here that said the bulk of the woe were caused by 150 people only.
Both are probably wrong but to say the irish people (all 4 million of them) went mad is wide of the mark.

Most people bought 1 house to live in and probably treated themselves to some cocaine or a fancy holiday or maybe that 4 X 4 (god why!!) . Not really that excessive.
In every society there will be outliners – the 3 holidays a year crowd who think a credit card is free money. They are fools.
We will always have fools.

However the monies they were splashing about were nothing in comparison to the Corporate money being splurged on mad projects in a feckless get-quick rich orgy.
Our woes as a nation has a lot more to do with that debt than personal debt arises from 4 days in new York acting like Kim large arse.

If you think those failed corporate loans have had no impact on your friends difficulty then you are as mad as a bag of cats.

You are responsible for your mortgage.
This is true and I agree with you however people did take out loans based on their circumstances. I don’t think anybody foresaw the **** storm we are in now. While I knew things wouldn’t be great forever I never envisaged the USC gouging my salary in the manner that it does.

For that lack foresight should they have a millstone around there neck for the next 30 year?
Existing to pay off a loan . A waste of a life (IMO).
Why not try and reach a compromise so these people can see light at the end of the tunnel .

If you talk about personal responsibility – why not talk of the professional responsibly of all the “professional” a people encounters when buying a house.

- The Bank
o A person buying a house is examined and the loan is stress tested
- The Property Valuer
o The bank had a guy value the house and he/she approve it being reasonably priced
- Lawyer
o Whatever they do….it seemed money for a few forms to me

And at a higher level than individual transactions but involved nonetheless

- The Financial Regulator
o Enough about him
- The Secretary of the Dep of finance and his minions and the central bank
o They failed to stand up to the government

There may be more but I can’t think of them from the top of my head. They all gave the deal the thumbs-up.

It’s a bit much too expect a guy who is a garda to know the ins and outs of the property market so that’s why we employ professionals (or the state employs)
Much like when you get your car fixed you approach a mechanic. If he messes up you can sue.

People are in the ****ter because not only did salaries fall (or cease to exist) but taxation rose by a huge amount.
Nobody foresaw that.

Plus on a corporate level we see company getting credit deals from banks . We see banks getting bailed-out but everybody just ****s on the regular guy

Worse still – it’s the regular guy that pays for the bailouts .

As for the government – they had a duty of care to ensure the property market (well the economy really) stayed in good nick.
They failed utterly . There was failings on the part of the regulator and dept of finance.

But also what isn’t mentioned a huge amount and in my view amounts to corruption is that a huge number of people in leinster house were neck deep in property speculation and needed the boom to continue.
This corrupted policy. I have no doubt about it.
And I accuse all parties of being in on this , bar Joe “all property is theft” Higgins.
FG’s policies were even more “party-on” that FF at the time.3

Then they guaranteed the banks – which FG approved of too (lest we forget) – I’m not going into that cos we all know .
Joe public didn’t guarantee the banks . In fact since joe public probably had less than 100k in the bank anyway his cash was secured by way of normal government guarantee - bank guarantee or not.

The bank guarantee was soley to save the banks, corporates and the small number who have more than 100k on deposit. And the bond holders. I’ll skip that point cos it’s been done to death but I think we’ll all agree ( I hope) that the bank guarantee has contributed significantly to the woe felt by people – the knock on effect is making it more difficult to pay that mortgage.

Yes the people are in a situation that they are responsible for but they are far from the only ones.
Yet they are the only ones carrying the can.

Did you foresee all this Kermit ? Or are you being smug using hindsight because you aren’t trapped in a cycle of taxes and debt.

As we all know – hindsight is foresight for the gob****e.

For disclosure I’m not in a bad place financially – I get bad months and ok months depending on bills (usually GP visits for the kids cripple me ) . I’ve never missed a mortgage payment in 13 years but I know plenty through no fault of their own in a really bad place.

cletus van damme · 13-11-2014 11:05AM

sorry for the shonky font - im at work and a rant that long needed to be written in email and copied in .
alas I'm not paid to rant on the net.

ThisRegard · 13-11-2014 11:09AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The government this, the government that....look at what the government did, what they are doing and why they shouldn't do it.

These are the arguments I hear literally every day from friends and all sorts. A lot of them have mortgages and are now in trouble, some are on the dole and have lost some income.

All of who are Liveline fodder.

Turtyturd · 13-11-2014 11:09AM

You must pay a hell of a lot of taxes OP considering every second thread you start is complaining about the stuff your taxes specifically pay for.

Also too much generalisation in the OP to take it seriously.

Quin_Dub · 13-11-2014 11:11AM

cletus van damme wrote: »

Existing to pay off a loan . A waste of a life (IMO).[
Why not try and reach a compromise so these people can see light at the end of the tunnel .

The only reasonable compromise here is for them to hand back the keys and for the debt to be written off. So they can move on and start again.

That way , the bank takes a hit and rightly so , but also the home-owner takes their hit as well , equally rightly so.

Both players in the silly mortgage game should be penalised - But only those players , not everybody else.

Any scenario where there is a government mandated blanket right down of mortgage debt where the buyer gets to keep the house is unacceptable.

cletus van damme · 13-11-2014 11:13AM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The only reasonable compromise here is for them to hand back the keys and for the debt to be written off. So they can move on and start again.

That way , the bank takes a hit and rightly so , but also the home-owner takes their hit as well , equally rightly so.

Both players in the silly mortgage game should be penalised - But only those players , not everybody else.

Any scenario where there is a government mandated blanket right down of mortgage debt where the buyer gets to keep the house is unacceptable.

toatlly agree and that is the way it is in most countries.

but people like kermit won't get to feel smug and get a horn watching others suffer. That just won't do.:pac:

homerjay2005 · 13-11-2014 11:28AM

EoinHef wrote: »

Considering most people COULD afford these mortgage when they got them i find it a very strange thing to say,do you not agree OP?.

the vast majority if people COULD NOT afford the mortgages they got. you had people getting 400k mortgages and net income of no more than 60k a year.

Jawgap · 13-11-2014 11:43AM

cletus van damme wrote: »

.........

People took out loans on the basis of unsustainable assumptions.

I don't have an unmanageable mortgage because I foresaw any of what happened - I have a manageable financial situation because I thought about 'what-ifs' - what if I lost my job, fell ill, got transferred etc.

In other words I was prudent and the abiding feeling I have about this country at the moment is those that were prudent are now being punished (we're certainly not being rewarded!) for their prudence - those that weren't are not suffering for their imprudence.

Shenshen · 13-11-2014 11:45AM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The only reasonable compromise here is for them to hand back the keys and for the debt to be written off. So they can move on and start again.

That way , the bank takes a hit and rightly so , but also the home-owner takes their hit as well , equally rightly so.

Both players in the silly mortgage game should be penalised - But only those players , not everybody else.

Any scenario where there is a government mandated blanket right down of mortgage debt where the buyer gets to keep the house is unacceptable.

I love that notion "the bank takes a hit".

Banks don't take hits. They merely pass them down the line to all their other customers, same as any other business.
So someone hands their keys back to the bank. Let's assume their outstanding mortgage is 300k, and let's be generous and assume the bank can sell the place for 200k.
That will leave the bank 100k out of pocket. A 100k loss that they will have to make up somehow, by getting the money out of the rest of their customers who are still able to pay them.

So it will be up to the people who are acting responsibly and are doing their best to pay off their loans to finance the ones who don't.

I fail to see any fairness in this.

Does personal responsibility for one's situation exist in Ireland?

Comments