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Bus Eireann bus full - am I entitled to a refund after purchasing ticket?
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06-11-2014 3:40pm#1On the Friday evening of the bank holiday just gone my girlfriend and I flew into Dublin airport. We bought return Bus Eireann tickets to our destination of choice. The scheduled bus was due to come from Busaras and stop at the airport for more passengers. At the bus stop there were already a few people there when we arrived, and more arrived as we were waiting. When the bus arrived there was a fair sized crowd there, the bus driver said we can only take 10 more as the bus was almost full already. The elderly people and people who were waiting the longest got on and the bus drove off. The next bus was in two hours so we made alternative arrangements to get to our destination.
So basically we didn't use our return tickets that weekend. We have spoken to Bus Eireann and they acknowledge the fact it was a busy evening and they did not put any extra busses on, however they refuse to refund the cost of the tickets. They have not supplied the service implied by purchasing their tickets, so I presume under the sale of goods act they haven't got a leg to stand on?
Has anyone else been in this situation before? What is the best avenue to take? Joe Duffy show?0
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Not an expert in this area but Id guess BE could argue that the ticket doesnt state a specific time on the ticket so as long as a bus was available on that date theyd be covered0
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I'm afraid that you are bound by the Bus Eireann conditions of carriage which you agreed to by purchasing a ticket:
http://buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=324Claims for refunds in respect of unused tickets will be considered solely at the discretion of Bus Éireann and will be subject to such administration charges as Bus Éireann may deem appropriate. No refunds will be made on partially used tickets in any circumstances.Every effort is made to ensure accommodation on buses for ticket holders but no liability or responsibility is accepted by Bus Éireann for the inability of a passenger to use a ticket on any particular bus if there is insufficient accommodation on that bus.
The fact that you subsequently decided to make alternative arrangements is I'm afraid your decision, and not theirs.0 -
Ah, so you bought tickets to use on a certain date, and despite there being more busses on that date, ye decided not to use the tickets?
It's not like you bought tickets for a specific bus, like on whatever bus Nestor is called these days.
If you had missed the last bus, or were unable to get onto the bus 2 hours later then you might have a case.0 -
Thanks for the reply lxflyer. It clears things up a bit. I wonder if it is legal for BE to sell tickets that get you to your destination 'when we can' and not offer a refund if they can't get you on a particular bus. It probably is I suppose, would be different if there was a time on ticket id say.
The reason Im angry is that that Friday at 8pm it was freezing, there were lots of people there, and Im sure they could have almost filled another bus that evening if there was one. Probably the best thing to do would have been to go into Busaras and got on a more frequent service.0 -
Exactly Carawaystick, once bitten twice shy I guess.0
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Thanks for the reply lxflyer. It clears things up a bit. I wonder if it is legal for BE to sell tickets that get you to your destination 'when we can' and not offer a refund if they can't get you on a particular bus. It probably is I suppose, would be different if there was a time on ticket id say.
The reason Im angry is that that Friday at 8pm it was freezing, there were lots of people there, and Im sure they could have almost filled another bus that evening if there was one. Probably the best thing to do would have been to go into Busaras and got on a more frequent service.
Well, by the same token if we follow your line of thought people holding commuter tickets would sue Dublin Bus every time a bus went past them full.
Unfortunately a ticket does provide a guarantee to travel on a particular bus, but rather at some stage on that day. As the previous poster stated, you would probably have a case were you unable to get on the next bus.0 -
I'm curious about one aspect. Did you get the Bus Eireann tickets from the ticket machines near some of the bus stops or from the Travel Information desk in Terminal 1 arrivals? Did you have a preference for pre-paying for the ticket instead of buying from the driver?On the Friday evening of the bank holiday just gone my girlfriend and I flew into Dublin airport. We bought return Bus Eireann tickets to our destination of choice. The scheduled bus was due to come from Busaras and stop at the airport for more passengers. At the bus stop there were already a few people there when we arrived, and more arrived as we were waiting. When the bus arrived there was a fair sized crowd there, the bus driver said we can only take 10 more as the bus was almost full already. The elderly people and people who were waiting the longest got on and the bus drove off. The next bus was in two hours so we made alternative arrangements to get to our destination.
So basically we didn't use our return tickets that weekend. We have spoken to Bus Eireann and they acknowledge the fact it was a busy evening and they did not put any extra busses on, however they refuse to refund the cost of the tickets. They have not supplied the service implied by purchasing their tickets, so I presume under the sale of goods act they haven't got a leg to stand on?
Has anyone else been in this situation before? What is the best avenue to take? Joe Duffy show?
Its bad form in any case I would be very pissed to have experienced that and it might be useful for anyone at the airport to just have change for the bus. I would only buy tickets on board as I've not always managed to get on the bus I wanted to.
They should have sent another bus. Was there an inspector there at the time?0 -
I purchased the tickets at the machine by the bus stop. We just wanted to be ready for the bus when it came so it would get us out of the cold weather. We did have cash to buy tickets from the driver but we weren't sure that was an option, to keep things simple we got them from the machine. To be honest we didn't even entertain the thought that a bus would come almost full and we would have to wait another 2 hours for another (presumably) almost full bus.
There was no inspector there, if there was he/she would have got a very loud ear-bashing from a lot of people! I have no idea what the rest of those poor people did as it was an awful night to be out waiting for busses.
I'm very disappointed in BE for this as it was a simple case of not having enough busses on a known busy weekend, followed by poor customer policy/service. This reminds me of Ryanair-like behaviour. I live in the UK and here when you buy an item from any shop you can return it unused within 7(or 14) days for a full refund, no questions asked. Not sure about transport but given that there is more competition here I wouldn't be surprised if you can get unused bus ticket refunds in exceptional circumstances.0 -
All this talk of Bus Eireann inspectors, sure don't you only see them in Busaras on bank holiday Mondays for the triple time? A private driver told me one day that there are at least a dozen inspectors based in Busaras, as in rostered to work there, yet there is usually only one there during office hours and none after that unless there is some dignitary or minister visiting!
As for extra buses they are often very poorly managed but when the inspectors are nowhere to be found why would that be any surprise. I watched the bus Eireann bus to Waterford leave Busaras full one day and the extra private bus driver was told to get on the motorway and not stop anywhere except Carlow! so the person organising this was not allowing for the usual few passengers at Heuston station and at the Luas park and ride stops and Newlands Cross. When this was mentioned to him he said the first bus was serving those stops.........cue a long silence before someone stated that bus was packed full leaving so couldn't pick up anyone but was going to drive slowly by people waiting at those three stops showing "bus Full, Extra Bus Following" only for no bus to show up!0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »Ah, so you bought tickets to use on a certain date, and despite there being more busses on that date, ye decided not to use the tickets?
It's not like you bought tickets for a specific bus, like on whatever bus Nestor is called these days.
If you had missed the last bus, or were unable to get onto the bus 2 hours later then you might have a case.
No need for the smartarse reply. Simple question was asked, learn a bit from how xflyer approached the thread, much more helpful to the OP0 -
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Was it the 30 bus to Donegal by any chance?0
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Yes it was! This route is a new experience for me. Was only going to Cavan, so priority was rightly given to people travelling to Donegal.0
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I purchased the tickets at the machine by the bus stop. We just wanted to be ready for the bus when it came so it would get us out of the cold weather. We did have cash to buy tickets from the driver but we weren't sure that was an option, to keep things simple we got them from the machine. To be honest we didn't even entertain the thought that a bus would come almost full and we would have to wait another 2 hours for another (presumably) almost full bus.
There was no inspector there, if there was he/she would have got a very loud ear-bashing from a lot of people! I have no idea what the rest of those poor people did as it was an awful night to be out waiting for busses.
I'm very disappointed in BE for this as it was a simple case of not having enough busses on a known busy weekend, followed by poor customer policy/service. This reminds me of Ryanair-like behaviour. I live in the UK and here when you buy an item from any shop you can return it unused within 7(or 14) days for a full refund, no questions asked. Not sure about transport but given that there is more competition here I wouldn't be surprised if you can get unused bus ticket refunds in exceptional circumstances.
I think you are confusing customer service on the change of mind in the UK as there is no law in Ireland orb the UK where you have an automatic right to refund when you buy something in a shop.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_you_have_changed_your_mind_about_what_you_have_bought_e/returning_goods_bought_in_a_shop.htm
As was said you only bought a ticket to a destination and not a specific bus. Do you think it's easy to get a bus and driver on a Friday evening of a bank holiday weekend? With the bad pay and working time directive there aren't that many spare driver's anymore.0 -
Yes it was! This route is a new experience for me. Was only going to Cavan, so priority was rightly given to people travelling to Donegal.
Thought so. That route is notorious for leaving behind passengers. Any time I have attempted to get that bus to Cavan when I arrive back into Dublin Airport there has always been passengers left behind. Also there is very rarely any staff around to let you know what is happening so you only find out the bus is full when it pulls up and the driver wont let you on.
Then you have to wait around for the 109a and travel to Kells (2 hour journey)and then wait for the 109 to go to Cavan another 50 minutes). Or else go into Bussarus and get the 109 (Will take you about 40 minutes to get into Busarus and then another 2 1/2 hours on the bus). Either way passengers travelling to Cavan are treated very badly when it comes to travelling back from Dublin Airport.0 -
Yes it was! This route is a new experience for me. Was only going to Cavan, so priority was rightly given to people travelling to Donegal.
Hi
I don't know at what time the bus you intended to get, left the airport, but after the 7.50pm service, there are two other Donegal number 30 services every night of the week including Bank Holidays.
One leaves Bus Aras at 10pm and is due at the airport at 10.20pm and the midnight one that leaves from the Store Street side of Bus Aras picks up at the airport at 12.20am.
I guess, unfortunately with regard to hoping to get a refund in your case, where the bus you intended to get filled up - if it was the 7.50pm service - Bus Éireann may respond by saying there were two other later number 30 services that you could have taken that night?
As an alternative, you could have taken one of the hourly 109A services to Kells, for example the one that leaves the airport at 8.20pm that is due in Kells at 10pm. It would have got you to Kells, but then you'd be in Kells, hoping to connect with the 109 bus for Cavan that leaves Bus Aras at 8.30pm, that is due in Kells at 9.55pm and it's possible that this 109 to Cavan may have already left Kells by the time the 109A got to Kells.
Or if you got the 109A at 9.20pm, due in Kells at 11pm, considering the 109 from Bus Aras at 9.30pm does not go to Cavan, you would then have to wait in Kells for the 109 that leaves Bus Aras at 10.30pm, due in Kells at 11.55pm.
(the last 109 to Cavan from Bus Aras is at 10.30pm from Monday to Saturday and on Sundays the last 109 is 8.30pm. After the last 109 service to Cavan, the next bus from Bus Aras to Cavan is the number 30 midnight Donegal service that runs every night).
It would be interesting to find out if anyone going to Cavan from the airport has tried to get the 8.20pm 109A that is due at 10pm in Kells, to connect with the 8.30pm 109 that is due in Kells at 9.55pm. Does the 8.30pm 109 from Bus Aras get to Kells at exactly 9.55pm, or perhaps shortly afterwards?
I'm just thinking that if the 109 was scheduled to leave five minutes after the 109A is due in Kells, rather than five minutes before, it could work out as a far more convenient connection, for those from the airport, going to Cavan.
(An example of this type of possible bus connection, is the 109A going from Kells and Navan that is due at the airport at 20 past the hour. If anyone wanted to get another service at the airport it is possible.
An example is the Bus Éireann Translink Ulster Bus service to Belfast.
During the day, the Dublin Belfast services that are scheduled to leave the airport at 20 past the hour, usually arrive at the airport shortly after 20 past the hour - due I guess to traffic - after they leave Bus Aras on the hour. So while it is a long journey overall, compared to travelling by car, it is possible to make that connection from the 109A to the Dublin Belfast service, at the airport, as the bus stops for both of those services are in the same area, at the airport).
If ever a bus fills up like this again, there are a few options for getting into the city centre, if, rather than waiting at the airport, you opt to go for a bus from Bus Aras to Cavan, to be sure of getting a seat.
One is the number 16 Dublin Bus service.
http://dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=route&searchquery=16
Another is the Dublin Bus 747 service
http://dublinbus.ie/en/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=route&searchquery=747
Another option is the aircoach Dublin City Centre - Airport service from the airport.
http://aircoach.ie/timetables/route-700-dublin-airport-dublin-city-centre
I just mention them as they are less expensive options than taxis, as taxis between city centre and the airport are around 20 euros.0 -
Exactly Carawaystick, once bitten twice shy I guess.
It is worth pointing out the the B.E. T's&C's are somewhat generic and represent the general situation when buying Public Transport tickets.
With respect to the Capacity issues which were quite obvious to the OP,this is now a very real difficulty facing both the CIE companies AND the Private Sector Licenced operators.
Oddly enough,less than 12 months after completing "Recovery" and "Viability" plans which saw hundreds of Staff avail of voluntary redundancy and several hundred vehicles removed from the fleets,the CIE companies now face rapidly worsening capacity issues.
The NTA policy,which is somewhat hamstrung by a self-imposed necessity not to be seen to encourage "Market-Dominance" by the Semi-State sector,has resulted in those operators now being unable to react to the new demand.
One example is the Dublin Bus situation,whereby,the new specification vehicles have a capacity of 67 seats,but are replacing vehicles with 72 seats.
Last years order of 80 BAC vehicles,thus resulted in a net loss of 400 seats,multiplied by the number of peak journeys made at capacity has to equal potentially 400 frustrated,disappointed and dissatisfied customers.
Whilst the OP's situation regarding Bus Eireann may not be so easily explained,it remains obvious that some rapid reaction in terms of facilitating the encumbent operators to address these problems is required sooner rather than later.
As another poster also notes,the arrival of the Working Time Act to cover Mobile Workers added to extra legal requirements such as Drivers Certificates of Professional Competency has resulted in Bus & Coach driving becoming a significantly more difficult type of work to get a start in,with the various agencies concerned,RSA,NTA,DoT,DoE not prepared to compromise on any of their new found importance.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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All this talk of Bus Eireann inspectors, sure don't you only see them in Busaras on bank holiday Mondays for the triple time? A private driver told me one day that there are at least a dozen inspectors based in Busaras, as in rostered to work there, yet there is usually only one there during office hours and none after that unless there is some dignitary or minister visiting!
As for extra buses they are often very poorly managed but when the inspectors are nowhere to be found why would that be any surprise. I watched the bus Eireann bus to Waterford leave Busaras full one day and the extra private bus driver was told to get on the motorway and not stop anywhere except Carlow! so the person organising this was not allowing for the usual few passengers at Heuston station and at the Luas park and ride stops and Newlands Cross. When this was mentioned to him he said the first bus was serving those stops.........cue a long silence before someone stated that bus was packed full leaving so couldn't pick up anyone but was going to drive slowly by people waiting at those three stops showing "bus Full, Extra Bus Following" only for no bus to show up!
Hi foggy_lad
I was just curious, what was the outcome, after it was pointed out that the first bus was full? Did the private coach then stop at the other stops at Heuston Station, Luas park and ride and Newlands Cross?
Bus Éireann usually put on extra coaches. For example, recently, one Friday evening, I was going to Monaghan from the airport.
I was looking to get either the 33 Derry or 32 Letterkenny services. There was a large crowd of people waiting and they put on an extra private coach from the airport to Monaghan, to accommodate the numbers waiting, who like me would have been looking to take either the 33 Derry or 32 Letterkenny service.
http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1384957703-177.pdf
The 16.50pm Derry service arrived and picked up people for Derry only. The Letterkenny bus was due at 17.05.
They put on the extra private bus which went to Monaghan bus station which included people for Monaghan and people going to stops further on, for example Letterkenny.
This private coach then left the airport shortly before the 17.05pm 32 bus arrived there. Anyone on the private coach who were going further than Monaghan could connect with the 32 service when it arrived at Monaghan bus station, a short while after the private coach.
Before we arrived at Monaghan, the driver of the private coach announced over the bus intercom that they would be connecting with the 32 service at the bus station, but depending on how full the 32 bus was from Dublin, and the number of passengers that were at Monaghan Bus Station looking to get to any of the stops between Monaghan and Letterkenny, he may be going on further, to some of the stops on the route. I think he said he may be going on to Aughnacloy or Omagh, depending on how full the 32 bus was that was due at the station shortly afterwards.
It worked out well that day - an inspector was at the airport looking after the various buses and the passengers who were queueing.0 -
To be fair to the OP, there's a bit of a difference between standing at the side of the road at night for 2 hours waiting on a Commuter/Intercity bus, and being inconvenienced by maybe 20 mins for the next Dublin Bus - most of which travel in convoys along the same general route anyway so there's alternative options.
Telling the OP he should have just hung around is a bit much TBH0 -
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To be fair to the OP, there's a bit of a difference between standing at the side of the road at night for 2 hours waiting on a Commuter/Intercity bus, and being inconvenienced by maybe 20 mins for the next Dublin Bus - most of which travel in convoys along the same general route anyway so there's alternative options.
Telling the OP he should have just hung around is a bit much TBH
No one is saying the OP should have just hung around. The point that was made in the replies above - in response to the OP's query on the possibility of getting a refund - is that because the ticket was also valid for the later service, that it was unlikely that the OP would get a refund, on the basis that the earlier bus was full.
The ticket was not just valid for one scheduled service at a specific time,- for example in the way you can book a bus ticket online with aircoach for specific times - it was also valid for a later service.
It wasn't on the side of the road, it was at the airport, near Terminal 1. At least if the OP did decide to wait the two hours for the next bus, there are facilities in Terminal 1 near the bus stop, to go get food or coffee or whatever.
The OP hasn't stated what time the bus they had hoped to get arrived and filled, but said they were standing at the stop at 8pm so I am guessing the bus they were unable to get was the 7.50pm service that leaves Bus Aras at 7.30pm.
There are two more services after that bus.
Foe example if they had hoped to get the bus at 19.50, there were two more later services, at 10.20pm and 12.20am0 -
horseburger wrote: »Hi foggy_lad
I was just curious, what was the outcome, after it was pointed out that the first bus was full? Did the private coach then stop at the other stops at Heuston Station, Luas park and ride and Newlands Cross?
I was on the private bus that day and it went direct to Carlow without stopping. There was no ticket machine on the bus so no way for the driver to sell tickets. Many buses without ticket machines are used and are usually filled at say Waterford going to Dublin non-stop so would not need a ticket machine while the normal service serves all stops and the airport.
Bus Éireann are also using smaller minibus vehicles as extra buses especially on the Waterford route with companies who afaik do a lot of their school bus runs also give them a dig out on busy days with a minibus or two. These minibuses are not really suitable for expressway service and are limited to 80KPH and have smaller seats and no luggage space because they are school buses but that doesn't stop Bus Éireann.
Also noticed the other evening(Sunday) that the GoBé service to/from Cork is now being operated with a 41seater midi coach! It was about half full leaving Busaras.
Also on Sunday my bus stopped at the Red Cow at about 10.45pm and there were about 6 people who were very angry claiming that the last two buses were full and could not take them! they claimed to have been waiting almost 6 hours.
If I had been there and one bus was full I would have either got the next JJ Kavanagh bus or got the Luas into Busaras to make sure I got a seat on the next bus!0 -
One example is the Dublin Bus situation,whereby,the new specification vehicles have a capacity of 67 seats,but are replacing vehicles with 72 seats.
Last years order of 80 BAC vehicles,thus resulted in a net loss of 400 seats,multiplied by the number of peak journeys made at capacity has to equal potentially 400 frustrated,disappointed and dissatisfied customers.
160 GTs replacing the 2000 AVs - 800 seats lost? Not to mention that DB are losing their own AVs to be replaced by (in my opinion poorer and hugely less comfortable) buses that they don't own and could be taken off them and redistributed to another company if the NTA decides in the future?
Utterly ridiculous0 -
If the next bus wasn't for 2 hours, then I'd at least ask BE for my money back - nothing to lose there.0
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I was on the private bus that day and it went direct to Carlow without stopping. There was no ticket machine on the bus so no way for the driver to sell tickets. Many buses without ticket machines are used and are usually filled at say Waterford going to Dublin non-stop so would not need a ticket machine while the normal service serves all stops and the airport.
Bus Éireann are also using smaller minibus vehicles as extra buses especially on the Waterford route with companies who afaik do a lot of their school bus runs also give them a dig out on busy days with a minibus or two. These minibuses are not really suitable for expressway service and are limited to 80KPH and have smaller seats and no luggage space because they are school buses but that doesn't stop Bus Éireann.
Also noticed the other evening(Sunday) that the GoBé service to/from Cork is now being operated with a 41seater midi coach! It was about half full leaving Busaras.
Also on Sunday my bus stopped at the Red Cow at about 10.45pm and there were about 6 people who were very angry claiming that the last two buses were full and could not take them! they claimed to have been waiting almost 6 hours.
If I had been there and one bus was full I would have either got the next JJ Kavanagh bus or got the Luas into Busaras to make sure I got a seat on the next bus!
thanks for the reply
Indeed, many of the buses can fill at the airport during the day, for example the 32 may fill up before it passes by the Ardee By Pass stop.
But I guess Bus Éireann will put on the extra buses whenever possible. I was getting a bus to Derry on one occasion from the Ardee By Pass and the 33 went by full, but they put on an extra bus to Monaghan bus station which I got a few minutes later and I got a bus to Derry from there.
On another occasion, I was getting the 32 to Dublin and had originally planned to get it from Carrickmacross, but I ended up getting it from Castleblaney. It was just as well I did because it filled up there.:)0 -
I guess a solution to buses filling would be to have a all singing all dancing booking system where by all people who want to travel book seats in advance for a specific day and time, people would then know they have a seat and would be able to better match capacity to demand.
But there are dangers to that in that you would get a ryanair system of cheap fares for the first few seat and going up after that. then if peoples plans change they could denied access as bus is full or have to pay a supplement to change time, and not everyone who uses public transport would be up to this especially the older people (could cut use of the free travel scheme).
Also from an operators point problems would arise were a time was meant to be operated bu say an LE and only an LC is available, result up to 29 unhappy people.
I sometimes think people need to be careful what they wish for, especially if the model of the private trains in the UK was followed.
Again this would and could only apply to EXPRESSWAY, as pso is the NTA's role.0 -
I guess a solution to buses filling would be to have a all singing all dancing booking system where by all people who want to travel book seats in advance for a specific day and time, people would then know they have a seat and would be able to better match capacity to demand.
But there are dangers to that in that you would get a ryanair system of cheap fares for the first few seat and going up after that. then if peoples plans change they could denied access as bus is full or have to pay a supplement to change time, and not everyone who uses public transport would be up to this especially the older people (could cut use of the free travel scheme).
Also from an operators point problems would arise were a time was meant to be operated bu say an LE and only an LC is available, result up to 29 unhappy people.
I sometimes think people need to be careful what they wish for, especially if the model of the private trains in the UK was followed.
Again this would and could only apply to EXPRESSWAY, as pso is the NTA's role.
A very valid point.
However,currently the NTA appear to find themselves caught out somewhat by the speed of demand reappearing on routes not long "rationalized" due to corporate survival plans on the part of the CIE companies.
There has never been a better time for the Government to decisively support/subsidise/assist Public Transport in Ireland,even if this challenges whatever EU regulation may be flavour of the month in opposing such a move.
This recovery is far from confirmed,but it sure as hell won't help to have general Public Transport Availability,Cost and Extent artifically restricted in order to facilitate some notional competition theory ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Fully agree with your points,
The plan in Dublin bus is crazy also with the replacements of AV by GTs I think which will see less seats to meet the latest craze for double doors, a wheelchair space and a buggy space. The buses leaving will be sold i guess to help the Dublin Bus balance sheet where some of these could be transferred to BE for commuter work around Dublin, Galway, Waterford and some in cork but at least release VWD's for Cork given its heavy hill climbing requirements as well as extra capacity on Dublin Bus especially at peak periods to replace capacity. That is instead of selling them off cheap to end up with private operators on services and tour work.
We all need a public transport system that work.
As we have on other treads to simplify the system for the 21 century, speed up dwell times and reduce the number of stops on routes it crazy on some route where 2 stops are not 50 meters from each other. RPI that works. Less ticket types, a reliable service at a reasonable price. Look at the Luas success and people aree prepared to walk to it to get a reliable serice.0 -
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I would have been ripping and I would do my utmost to get a partial refund. That is not acceptable IMO.0
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