Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

DM_7 · 05-11-2014 06:56PM

Blind, Herrera, Di Maria, Rooney, Falcao and Van Persie would be Van Gaals first choice six.

Throw in first choice Rojo and Shaw, then we see he had a good transfer policy in his first summer, good mix of younger and established high quality players. He will want to add to it going forward.

He isn't short a right back, he was okay with Valencia as his second choice. He might not be when the season is over but thats a separate issue.

So I would be happy to see him spend money on defence if he wanted to do it in winter.

Pro. F · 05-11-2014 07:13PM

DM_7 wrote: »

Blind, Herrera, Di Maria, Roonwy, Falcao and Van Persie would be Van Gaals first choice six.

Throw in first choice Rojo and Shaw, then we see he had a good transfer policy in his first summer, good mix of younger and established high quality players. He will want to add to it going forward.

When Falcao, RVP or Rooney get injured Mata has to come into a position that never looked like it would suit him. So that's a problem I would see with that first choice front 6. One injury in any of three positions means you might need to change the formation around completely to accommodate Mata.

DM_7 wrote: »

He isn't short a right back, he was okay with Valencia as his second choice. He might not be when the season is over but thats a separate issue.

So I would be happy to see him spend money on defence if he wanted to do it in winter.

Valencia was always a poor right-back. If Van Gaal can manage to train him to the position then he'll have been vindicated. He'll have plenty of time to try and he's known for doing that type of thing in the past. As it stands, he hasn't managed it yet and so Valencia's presence can't be used as extra mitigating evidence for the poor defensive organisation.

DM_7 · 05-11-2014 07:40PM

Pro. F wrote: »

When Falcao, RVP or Rooney get injured Mata has to come into a position that never looked like it would suit him. So that's a problem I would see with that first choice front 6. One injury in any of three positions means you might need to change the formation around completely to accommodate Mata.

Assuming, like I do, that his preferred formation in against 14 or 15 teams of 20 will be the front six I mentioned (It would be normal to mix it up a bit in a game against a Chelsea or City)

Rooney out, Put Mata at 10.

Falcao or RVP out? Put Rooney up front and Mata at 10.

Di Maria out? That is the one that will be a problem over any other player and that will need to be fixed over time.

Pro. F wrote: »

Valencia was always a poor right-back. If Van Gaal can manage to train him to the position then he'll have been vindicated. He'll have plenty of time to try and he's known for doing that type of thing in the past. As it stands, he hasn't managed it yet and so Valencia's presence can't be used as extra mitigating evidence for the poor defensive organisation.

I didn't suggest that last part about Valencia. But his presence does explain why it made sense to prioritise other signings in the first summer of Van Gaals reign.

Iused2likebusts · 05-11-2014 07:45PM

Kirby wrote: »

Last year was an anomaly. Not many expected Liverpool to have such a good season. Similar to Southampton this season. They are sitting in one of the top 4 spots. It happens.

The 4th spot is more attainable this year as Liverpool and Spurs are struggling. Finish ahead of them and wait for the saints wobble and 4th spot is there to be taken. Arsenal might struggle too.

It's an open season.

I'd expect Utd to get top 4 this year but any manager bar fergie would've struggled to get that squad last year into the top 4. The spine of the team bar ddg all went into decline together and the younger players didn't look as good without Carrick rio vidic evra and rvp at their peak.

kryogen · 05-11-2014 07:46PM

@ ProF in as others have posted since!

I am unsure of what you mean by Mata coming into a position that won't suit him? From a tactical point of view?

The number 10 role is perfect for him, but I don't like him there as much when we play two up front as he has more responsibility defensively then suits him (imo) but as the number 10 in a system with proper wingers to stretch the field a bit and give him more space to work in while having two more typical CM's behind him, one deep lying/defensive and one box to box, I would be very happy with him in the team.

The problem is having 3 top level strikers of course and not a lot of games to play really this season, but injury and suspension have already played their part with the forwards as well as the backs. I think if 433/451/4231 whatever you want to call it, is the way Van Gaal wants the team long term, then one of the three strikers will be moved on. Maybe Falcao won't be made permanent, maybe RvP will move in the summer, I don't know but there is no point in having the three of them in the squad next season if two up top is not the way he will go, and in that scenario I can see Mata moving, I am sure he will be replaced by someone more suited to the formation/system though.

It won't be fixed in one summer and I am happy with the progress made, looking forward to the next phase.

kryogen · 05-11-2014 07:50PM

By the way, its nice to prove now and then that people can hold views that are different to others and yet if they make their points in a rational, reasonable, manner there is no problem!

05-11-2014 07:54PM

Mata should be the one on the right instead of Januzaj. I like the system of one pacey trickster winger and a skilful cut inside smart player on the other side. There has almost been this idea that Mata can't play wide since he joined despite starting his career there and playing great stuff for Chelsea out wide. The problem has been that there's too much defensive responsibility on the wingers at United, probably because the midfield and full backs have been too poor to cover for them but Fellaini and Blind along with Rafael and Shaw should be able to cover well for the wingers to stay forward.

kryogen · 05-11-2014 07:58PM

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I'd expect Utd to get top 4 this year but any manager bar fergie would've struggled to get that squad last year into the top 4. The spine of the team bar ddg all went into decline together and the younger players didn't look as good without Carrick rio vidic evra and rvp at their peak.

I just can't agree with that line of thinking at all. The squad was not good enough to win the league, though, I might disagree with that, but it was certainly good enough to make the top four.

City and Chelsea both had off seasons, Liverpool were realistic title contenders for God sake and should have won it but threw it away with a couple of slip ups. We were awful and getting worse, the style was awful, the creativity was non existent, the tactics were poor. The players did not perform to their level, a lot of them were disilusioned and demoralised, but to say any manager would have struggled is just incorrect. If at some point we actually had put together a good run of form in the second half of the season we probably would have been top four!

DM_7 · 05-11-2014 08:04PM

Am I the only person who thinks Di Maria's best position is not on the wing and generally should be playing as the third midfield player?

I thought the last two games showed he would be far more useful in and around midfield running at players, going wide rather than starting there, make it easier for him to get into positions all across the pitch in offensive positions.

With the players available this season I would want to see the formation used against Everton, QPR and West Ham over what was used v Chelsea and City

05-11-2014 08:12PM

DM_7 wrote: »

Am I the only person who thinks Di Maria's best position is not on the wing and generally should be playing as the third midfield player?

I thought the last two games showed he would be far more useful in and around midfield running at players, going wide rather than starting there, make it easier for him to get into positions all across the pitch in offensive positions.

With the players available this season I would want to see the formation used against Everton, QPR and West Ham over what was used v Chelsea and City

He gets lost on the wings a lot more alright. Realistically you want him on the ball as much as possible and that's better through the middle. That said, Rooney is also someone who makes things happen through the middle and Di Maria is infinitely better on the wings than him so that's the trade off. With the way it currently is with Januzaj, Young and Valencia the other wing options I'd like to see the diamond return for a while.

kryogen · 05-11-2014 08:18PM

If we could get them on the field at the same time, this is probably the best we can put out

DDG

Raf---Jones---Rojo---Shaw

Blind

---Hererra

Di Maria--

Rooney

Falcao

RvP---

Can make an argument for who the centre back pairing should be of course, but basically that is it I think.

Some day, some day they will all play together for a run of games and we will see how much damage could be done.

Pro. F · 05-11-2014 08:40PM

DM_7 wrote: »

Assuming, like I do, that his preferred formation in against 14 or 15 teams of 20 will be the front six I mentioned (It would be normal to mix it up a bit in a game against a Chelsea or City)

Rooney out, Put Mata at 10.

Falcao or RVP out? Put Rooney up front and Mata at 10.

Di Maria out? That is the one that will be a problem over any other player and that will need to be fixed over time.

Mata isn't suited to playing the 10 in a diamond midfield with the strikers we have. There is too much running required of the front three in that formation, and when our strikers aren't the quickest it makes it even harder to accommodate a light-weight like Mata in that system. I was concerned about these issues before the season started and it has been a problem.

DM_7 wrote: »

I didn't suggest that last part about Valencia. But his presence does explain why it made sense to prioritise other signings in the first summer of Van Gaals reign.

It doesn't make sense to me. Valencia was a worse full-back than Welbeck or Chico were strikers, Kagawa was a 10 or Valencia and Young were wingers.

Pro. F · 05-11-2014 08:48PM

kryogen wrote: »

@ ProF in as others have posted since!

I am unsure of what you mean by Mata coming into a position that won't suit him? From a tactical point of view?

The number 10 role is perfect for him, but I don't like him there as much when we play two up front as he has more responsibility defensively then suits him (imo) but as the number 10 in a system with proper wingers to stretch the field a bit and give him more space to work in while having two more typical CM's behind him, one deep lying/defensive and one box to box, I would be very happy with him in the team.

The problem is having 3 top level strikers of course and not a lot of games to play really this season, but injury and suspension have already played their part with the forwards as well as the backs. I think if 433/451/4231 whatever you want to call it, is the way Van Gaal wants the team long term, then one of the three strikers will be moved on. Maybe Falcao won't be made permanent, maybe RvP will move in the summer, I don't know but there is no point in having the three of them in the squad next season if two up top is not the way he will go, and in that scenario I can see Mata moving, I am sure he will be replaced by someone more suited to the formation/system though.

It won't be fixed in one summer and I am happy with the progress made, looking forward to the next phase.

Yes, from a tactical point of view. I agree that Mata is great at 10 with one CF and a wide midfield behind him. But we don't have proper wingers, not in terms of strength in depth. And, as you say, with Falcao, Rooney and RVP on the books we would be wasting resources if we played a formation with one centre forward.

All the possible resolutions of this scenario involve ridiculous amounts of money wasted by singing and not properly using top quality attacking players. And changing formation from 352 to 442 diamond to 433 is extremely disruptive, as we can see with the disorganisation on the pitch this season. All of that could have been avoided if LVG had been better at planning things from the start. It really is not much to ask that a manager should foresee these problems and avoid them.

Bleating Lamb · 05-11-2014 08:55PM

Crystal ball out,Utd in Champions league having stolen 4th place from Liverpool on goal difference with a Falcao hat trick on last day of league season.
Top of a tough CL grp which includes Barcelona,CSKA Moscow and Ludogrets the legends!
Tonight at H/T v Barca it's one all.
Utd line up- De Gea,Azpilicueta,Jones,Evans,Shaw,Reus,Herrera,Vidal,Di Maria,Rooney,Falcao.
Subs- Valdes,Rafael ,Hummells,Rojo,Blind,Mata,Schneiderlin,Wilson.
Januzai,Carrick,Smalling,Mc Nair,Blackett all injured.
RVP sold for 20m sterling in Summer to Quatar Sheiks new team!
Nani swopped for Azpiliqueta.
Ah that's what dreams are made of.

adox · 05-11-2014 09:01PM

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Crystal ball out,Utd in Champions league having stolen 4th place from Liverpool on goal difference with a Falcao hat trick on last day of league season.
Top of a tough CL grp which includes Barcelona,CSKA Moscow and Ludogrets the legends!
Tonight at H/T v Barca it's one all.
Utd line up- De Gea,Azpilicueta,Jones,Evans,Shaw,Reus,Herrera,Vidal,Di Maria,Rooney,Falcao.
Subs- Valdes,Rafael ,Hummells,Rojo,Blind,Mata,Schneiderlin,Wilson.
Januzai,Carrick,Smalling,Mc Nair,Blackett all injured.
RVP sold for 20m sterling in Summer to Quatar Sheiks new team!
Nani swopped for Azpiliqueta.
Ah that's what dreams are made of.

Hummells on the bench makes fantasy post void.

DM_7 · 05-11-2014 09:09PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Mata isn't suited to playing the 10 in a diamond midfield with the strikers we have. There is too much running required of the front three in that formation, and when our strikers aren't the quickest it makes it even harder to accommodate a light-weight like Mata in that system. I was concerned about these issues before the season started and it has been a problem.

I am not concerned about it like you are, Mata has acknowledged the need for more work in defence which is good, i don't see a real reason that he can't become used to that workload.

How many games did he play there this season with three midfielders behind him, three times? I think he did well in those games overall. (The three I am thinking are a 4-0 v OPR, a 2-1 v Everton and a 1-1 against Chelsea - a game his equivalent Oscar was poor).

Maybe it won't work out in time but I am happy to see him given chances to do it this season and be there next when the system may be developed or expanded upon further.

Pro. F wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me. Valencia was a worse full-back than Welbeck or Chico were strikers, Kagawa was a 10 or Valencia and Young were wingers.

Maybe so, priority in his first summer was probably to get players for his first team, which he did, the others were/are back up players. Makes sense to me.

Giggsy11 · 05-11-2014 09:15PM

Sporting 3-1 Schalke, Nani with a goal and assist. Assist was just a simple pass to Jefferson though.

05-11-2014 09:17PM

Just the goal and assist from Nani tonight. In the Champions League.

DM_7 · 05-11-2014 09:18PM

Liam O wrote: »

Just the goal and assist from Nani tonight. In the Champions League.

Where are they playing him?

Deiseboy01 · 05-11-2014 09:20PM

kryogen wrote: »

If we could get them on the field at the same time, this is probably the best we can put out
DDG
Raf---Jones---Rojo---Shaw
Blind
---Hererra
Di Maria--
Rooney
Falcao
RvP---

Can make an argument for who the centre back pairing should be of course, but basically that is it I think.

Some day, some day they will all play together for a run of games and we will see how much damage could be done.

I dont think you can play three centre forwards in a side and expect it to function well.

Your back five is fine.

Midfield has to have Carrick in there, id go with Carrick Blind then Jan Herrera Di Maria with Rooney up top.

kryogen · 05-11-2014 09:32PM

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

I dont think you can play three centre forwards in a side and expect it to function well.

Your back five is fine.

Midfield has to have Carrick in there, id go with Carrick Blind then Jan Herrera Di Maria with Rooney up top.

Van Gaal said he prefers Rooney as a 10, and since he is the captain, he will be playing. Rightly or wrongly.

I don't see Wilson forcing his way past Falcao or Van Persie for the foreseeable future anyway. If you mean to change the formation I would not be opposed to that, but for that I would personally be dropping Rooney, which as I have already said is impossible, because he is captain.

Billy86 · 05-11-2014 09:33PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ah come off it, at this stage any player who can stay fit and/or complete games for a couple of weeks is an upgrade.

the sad thing is, almost everybody with half a brain knew that our defensive options were not good enough taking into account the last few years worth of injury problems. its a right mess the club left it get to, defenders should have been lined up and signed since May.

It obviously was an exaggeration, but the fact is if we were in a position to sign Ramos he would not be cheap and after a few Monash it would become quite apparent he is certainly no Vidic or Ferdinand.

Hococop · 05-11-2014 09:37PM

Seems city can't break Europe

Giggsy11 · 05-11-2014 09:39PM

DM_7 wrote: »

Where are they playing him?

Left wing.

kryogen · 05-11-2014 09:40PM

Hococop wrote: »

Seems city can't break Europe

They losing?Drawing?

Nice, might see Pellegrini get the bullet if he fails to land the league and exits the CL early again, good manager, would gladly see the back of him

Pro. F · 05-11-2014 09:42PM

DM_7 wrote: »

I am not concerned about it like you are, Mata has acknowledged the need for more work in defence which is good, i don't see a real reason that he can't become used to that workload.

How many games did he play there this season with three midfielders behind him, three times? I think he did well in those games overall. (The three I am thinking are a 4-0 v OPR, a 2-1 v Everton and a 1-1 against Chelsea - a game his equivalent Oscar was poor).

Maybe it won't work out in time but I am happy to see him given chances to do it this season and be there next when the system may be developed or expanded upon further.

He also played at 10 behind two CFs in the three games we played 532, that role has similar demands on the 10. He was quiet in those games too. So that's six games in total, a reasonable sample to look at. I think he has been an issue in all of those games.

Maybe he'll improve in that role, maybe he won't. He hasn't yet. Maybe we'll change the system again and he'll fit better in the next one, that would mean that we've wasted a lot of resources this season (money, players, points) building a system we don't stick with.

DM_7 wrote: »

Maybe so, priority in his first summer was probably to get players for his first team, which he did, the others were/are back up players. Makes sense to me.

Getting a reserve right-back was only one of a few things that needed to be done. First team talent was definitely a priority. But spending £120m and still having only one right-back is poor. Spending £120m and still only having one right-back and huge issues with squad balance in midfield and attack is shocking.

Hococop · 05-11-2014 09:42PM

kryogen wrote: »

They losing?Drawing?

Nice, might see Pellegrini get the bullet if he fails to land the league and exits the CL early again, good manager, would gladly see the back of him

Lost 2-1 and had 2 players sent off

MagicIRL · 05-11-2014 09:48PM

:-)

Manutd_4life · 05-11-2014 09:50PM

yaya toure was on rage mode today. Lol. Kinda pissed off now, if only chris smalling had a bit of sense but lets not go there again.

Hococop · 05-11-2014 09:53PM

Manutd_4life wrote: »

yaya toure was on rage mode today. Lol. Kinda pissed off now, if only chris smalling had a bit of sense but lets not go there again.

Yaya was an idiot but nasri should have been sent off aswell, disgraceful tackle

When I see the way they played tonight it makes me even more annoyed at smalling

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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