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The bleeding hearts on Prime Time.

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245

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    #32
    moxin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    Lapin wrote: »
    Tag the fuckers. They'll still have their liberty and if they're not up to no good, they have nothing to worry about.

    Tag them with a poppy perhaps?


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    #33
    lm01
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭lm01


    mikeyjames9 wrote: »
    what use are tags apart from costing money to set-up and operate?

    It would let the police know beyond a shadow of a doubt if repeat offenders were in the vicinity when a crime was committed? It's hard to burgle a house or snatch a child from its residence or commit a murder if there's a record of you being there at the scene and when and for how long.

    I'm not saying it's a good idea or a fair one but properly implemented it would have to be extremely useful.


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    #34
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,583 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Tags for everybody!

    No crime ever!


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    #35
    Dandy Dandridge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Dandy Dandridge


    Lapin wrote: »

    Why are the judges in this country so soft on criminals?


    What's with the stupid questions?


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    #36
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    osarusan wrote: »
    Tags for everybody!

    No crime ever!

    Desperate times, desperate measures.


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    #37
    mikeyjames9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 700 ✭✭✭mikeyjames9


    lm01 wrote: »
    It would let the police know beyond a shadow of a doubt if repeat offenders were in the vicinity when a crime was committed? It's hard to burgle a house or snatch a child from its residence or commit a murder if there's a record of you being there at the scene and when and for how long.

    I'm not saying it's a good idea or a fair one but properly implemented it would have to be extremely useful.

    sounds like a waste of time to me


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    #38
    Jogathon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Jogathon


    Crime in this country would be very low if we could lock away 5-6 people in every Garda area. The repeat offenders are guilty of the vast majority of crimes. So that's why I think a three strikes system would work well. If they've been caught three times, how many crimes have they got away with? And now think about all these fellas that we see with 60 and upwards convictions! How many crimes are they really responsible for?


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    #39
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Sigh I really wish the people proposing this draconian American cop procedural inspired punishments and sentencing actually footed the bill for that crap. Prisons are incredibly expensive! Violent punishments don't seem to deter crime either. All this lust for revenge and justice. Even if the culprit does die in horrific circumstances e.g a horrible form of cancer, you still don't get justice.
    Any policies we enact should be targeted primarily at prevention over punishment and support for victims and theirs families. Create a culture where crime isn't a desirable factor not one where it's rampant and a ridiculously high proportion of society are either committing violent crimes or in prison. When it comes to how penal systems and sentencing should operate the United State is the outlier. Not Ireland.

    yeah prisons are expensive

    but then again what price to you put on the damage violent scumbags do, my mothers house was broken into a few years back and she is still nervous and paranoid about her safety, thats a "small" crime but it did massive damage

    what price do you but on murder, rape or assault, read the papers and you will notice the scum committing these crimes almost always have previous convictions, if they got the right sentence for their first crimes then the other crimes would not have happened

    also I would love to see a break down of prison costs, I bet their are massive savings to be made the figures we hear are just crazy

    the legal industry in the country love crime they make a fortune out of it, and they live in areas where they see very little of it

    we need a political party that takes law and order seriously


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    #40
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    Honestly, the Blasket islands are just sitting there. Let them fight it out Lord of the Flies style. More than 5 previous convictions and you're shipped out automatically and no one comes looking for you for another 5 years.


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    #41
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Dempsey wrote: »
    The American way doesn't work

    yeah it does

    crime has been falling in the US for years

    it turns out that if you lock up scumbags the crime rate falls, amazing


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    #42
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    The Walrus of Law?

    Havin'....sharin' .....making law.


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    #43
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    I had a conversation a year ago at a wedding with a well up detective based in Dublin. We were discussing gangs that were using the motorways to travel down the country in high powered cars and rob rural businesses and farms etc. I asked him if he felt the problem was worsening in Ireland and he said he was - and then asked him if there was a solution and he immediately said "stop their free legal aid".

    Free legal aid for well known criminals with numerous convictions has to be the biggest kick in the teeth to the law-abiding citizens of the state, tax-payers in particular. First of all the perpetrator is laughing as they get a brief for free, secondly the briefs themselves are making money on it so the more cases they get the better and thirdly, the tax-payer has to foot the bill.
    Now I understand there are genuine cases where people have no money and are up in court for minor offences or where they are actually innocent. In the case where someone is proven innocent then the legal aid should be paid for by the state.
    But in the case of some scumbag with 30 convictions - why should the tax-payer have to foot their legal bill for offence 31?
    So what In would do is this - give them free legal, but if they are convicted then the bill passes on to them. And they must pay that back with community service or whatever it takes. In the are proven innocent, then the state pays the legal bill.

    I would also suggest the introduction of hard labour - but that would be harder to push through with the mountain of bleeding heart liberal that would have to be moved. There could be a points system, categorise each criminal offence on a points scale of 1 to 10 - if you hit say 30 points that's it, you've earned 2 to 5 years hard labour. Working 10 hours a day, no frills prisons, no gyms, playstations, tele for 2 just hours a day, 6 days a week. It might make a scumbag think twice if he had that to face.

    And before any idiot comes on here and starts comparing Ireland with say Norway or Iceland - you are dealing with completely different countries and races of people, ways of life etc. We seem to be producing a new breed of feral sociopath in Ireland these days. Religion had a hold on the country up to about 15 years or so ago and in some way, that appeared to help with a certain degree of morality in society - but that is long gone. Ireland seems to be a much more violent place now and that seems to be getting worse. You can pussyfoot around all you like and all these self-righteous self-promoting clowns can harp on about human rights and crap like that but it doesn't take away from the problems nor does it solve anything. People have had enough, the courts are a joke and the free legal aid scheme is making rich people out of some in the legal profession and sticking another 2 fingers up at taxpayers and normal law-abiding citizens.
    Tagging isn't a bad idea if it helps locate where these scumbags are.
    Its time the human rights of normal law-abiding citizens was put first before the country goes to hell altogether.


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    #44
    Dempsey
    Registered Users Posts: 20,553 ✭✭✭✭Dempsey


    nokia69 wrote: »
    yeah it does

    crime has been falling in the US for years

    it turns out that if you lock up scumbags the crime rate falls, amazing


    What massaged figures have you been reading?


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    #45
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Bambi wrote: »
    f**k tags.... repeat offenders, out on TR, suspended sentence etc, all given big highviz jackets that announces to the world that they're a crim.

    GPS tag too, so if they're within a two feet of a fellow high viz scumbag for any amount of time then they get sent back down
    Yeah yeah, completely yeah. And we can make them electrified jackets so they can get shocked if they are standing in an aisle in the shops too ling. Sure they're definitely going to be just trying to rob stuff. And cameras can be inserted too, for free public broadcasting so we can all see their shame. If they damage the camera, bbbzzzzztt! Electric shock, b*tches!

    And they'll have to wear them to bed too so they don't slip out in the night, so we can maybe give them a quick zap at 4am to remind them they're a terrible person.

    The shower too! Touching yourself in the shower, eh? BBBZZZZT! Electric shower shock, b*tches!

    Oh man, this is going to be so much fun! Better not effect my taxes though...


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    #46
    king_of_inismac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭king_of_inismac


    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.


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    #47
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Dempsey wrote: »
    What massaged figures have you been reading?

    AFAIK crime has been falling in the US, there is plenty of argument as to why that is, some claim it was abortion rights, some say its was unleaded petrol others say its locking up criminals

    maybe its all these things and some other things too, but it seems to me that if you lock up repeat offenders that it has to result in a drop in crime


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    #48
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

    That's all valid and well and good - but it doesn't tackle the immediate problems that are there now. I agree that the kids in these situations need to be given a chance, no question - but what chance do they have when the parents are already lost to society themselves? Are you talking about taking these kids off their parents?


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    #49
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

    yeah that would be a big help

    but we skill need to lock up serious criminals no matter what we think might be the reason the picked a life of crime


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    #50
    marklazarcovic
    Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭marklazarcovic


    Costs too much to keep prisoners inside..hence low sentence revolving door scenario..last thing they want is to have to build more prisons because there are not enough free spots due to longer sentences.


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »
    Well it is fairly draconian and indeed the American way of doing things


    I dunno mate, sit in court and listen to a victim impact statement from a family who've lost someone. good example. lovely young Dublin woman jogging and crossing the road (at the lights) gets knocked out of her shoes by a speeding car which broke same lights. Driver doing over 100K has no insurance, no tax, it's not her car and she's a raving junkie out of her face on gear at the time.... gets a very short time in prison.... family get a wreath..
    made me sick to my stomach.

    young woman get a knock on the door, opens it, door gets pushed in and the young man grabs her, sexually assaults her and chokes her while beating her face in. all the while, he tells her he's sorry cos he cannot control himself. he get scared at the sound of a car and runs out!!
    she gets to see him walk out of court, ZERO time because he said he was sorry at the time, meaning he had remorse... ZERO time, look it up!!
    she goes home every night and will never be the same..

    People who say this type of thing is American and draconian have never been effected by serious stuff!! I don't care if I'm banned for saying so and posters can say all they want but when a man can buy his way out of an attempted rape charge and serve one month, walking by the victim, what do we expect!! it's a joke.

    Id say if you read all the case files they'd make you sick.


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    #52
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

    Your solution requires almost utopian advancement of society.

    Slapping a tag on someone's ankle is a lot more practical.



    I think people would be reasonably happy if, to create the room to put these sorts of scumbags away, inflicting prison on people was only seen for serial offenders and violent criminals.

    Really, if you nick someone's car once or commit fraud or something, you're probably not going to do all that much harm outside prison. You'd need an eye kept on you and maybe need to do some community service and all that, but giving someone a year in prison for that but only maybe 10-15 years for murder seems wildly inconsistent given the massive gulf in severity.


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    #53
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    Always said it i'll be taking the law into my own hands if anyone ever hurts my family or attempts to rob my property. The Irish justice system just can't be trusted to deal with the criminals. People will say "but that's the road to anarchy" etc.. but that's not my problem. Fix the justice system and then i'll change my way of thinking.


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    #54
    kstand
    Registered Users Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭kstand


    Streetwalker wrote: »
    Always said it i'll be taking the law into my own hands if anyone ever hurts my family or attempts to rob my property. The Irish justice system just can't be trusted to deal with the criminals. People will say "but that's the road to anarchy" etc.. but that's not my problem. Fix the justice system and then i'll change my way of thinking.

    And that is the way things are going to go unless a common sense prevails here and the idiots championing the rights of these criminals and how they should be treated are put firmly in their box. I can actually see the problem getting much worse and vigilantism becoming almost a social norm otherwise.


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    #55
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

    Complete cop out. I grew up in social housing as did many of my friends and I never caused any trouble. I don't buy the "they have no facilities" argument at all. Been to Ballymun recently? The council knocked down a load of flats and gave people new houses only for the same anti social problems to persist. The problem is we as a society are not hard enough on the criminals. Going to Mountjoy is nothing for these assholes.


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    #56
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

    So called deprived areas have more facilities then most

    Ballyfermot has two GAA clubs, boxing club, council leisure centre with pool, the fantastic library is reopened, AstroTurf pitches, council run pitch n'putt, multiple training centres for computers & job seeking, large FAS centre, health clinic, will I keep going?

    Doesn't stop cars being stolen and burned out in Cherry Orchard every single week.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Streetwalker wrote: »
    Complete cop out. I grew up in social housing as did many of my friends and I never caused any trouble. I don't buy the "they have no facilities" argument at all. Been to Ballymun recently? The council knocked down a load of flats and gave people new houses only for the same anti social problems to persist. The problem is we as a society are not hard enough on the criminals. Going to Mountjoy is nothing for these assholes.

    I agree, Im the same, from a very rough area and didn't once get involved in that crap. some people are just scumbags born and bred!!
    And going to mount joy for 3 hots and a cot with a crashcourse in play station and snooker is like butlins!!!

    Like I said, let all these bleeding heart liberals see howthey feel when they’re family member is set upon by 10 scumbags for his mobilephone, battered
    With bottles and bricks and only lucky not to have beenstabbed with a screwdriver for fun!!!! See what they think then!!
    Yes that happened to a family member of mine coming homefrom town one night while on his own!!!



    Let’s see how you feel then.....


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    #58
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself.

    What a dumb attitude - this is a spit in the face of all the people who grew up in less-well-off estates in our towns and cities and somehow managed to behave themselves. What are they ... human miracles in your view?


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    #59
    Exiledrover
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭Exiledrover


    king_of_inismac wrote: »
    Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

    The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

    My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

    Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

    But the removal of the current scumbags may give the next generation a chance


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    #60
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Exiledrover wrote: »
    But the removal of the current scumbags may give the next generation a chance

    exactly

    its depressing to see junkies/scumbags in Dublin with small children, they have no chance, generation after generation following the same path


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    #61
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Diego Simeone wrote: »
    Any reasonable statistics to suggest this is the case? And by reasonable statistics, I don't mean a collection of your favourite Irish Daily Mail articles. Some international comparisons would be good.

    Why is the relevant comparator other countries?

    Why can't the relevant comparator be a bunch of crime victims who've suffered similar crimes deciding if the punishment is too hard or too soft?

    I fully agree with trial by jury and the idea of an impartial judiciary but I'm always left wondering why in the discussion about sentencing the collective voice of the victims of crime gets drowned out.


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