The bleeding hearts on Prime Time.

Lapin

An excellent suggestion from a law student in the audience that repeat offenders should be tagged so that the Gardaí would know where they are at all times was dismissed by a member of the panel (solicitor James MacGuill) as drachonian, and scoffed that it was the American way of doing things.

Bizzarly, he also said that there is no need to tag scumbags as they get longer sentences everytime they reoffend in any case. This is plainly bollox. We have all seen cases where some little shít with dozens of previous conviction walks out of court giving two fingers to the rest of us.

Why are the judges in this country so soft on criminals?

Tag the fuckers. They'll still have their liberty and if they're not up to no good, they have nothing to worry about.

Cantremember

Who was on the panel?

Sh1tbag OToole

Well it is fairly draconian and indeed the American way of doing things

Lapin

Cantremember wrote: »

Who was on the panel?

Former Judge Barry White.
Solicitor James MacGuill.
John Whelan of Advocates for victims of homocide.
Lorainne Higgins, senator and habitual runner up in any election she has ever ran in.

Lapin

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Well it is fairly draconian and indeed the American way of doing things

So what.

Amirani

Lapin wrote: »

Why are the judges in this country so soft on criminals?.

Any reasonable statistics to suggest this is the case? And by reasonable statistics, I don't mean a collection of your favourite Irish Daily Mail articles. Some international comparisons would be good.

Earl Turner

Easy for the elites to bleat on about human rights. Put them in an estate terrorized by thugs and watch them change their tune.

Duckworth_Luas

Lapin wrote: »

Former Judge Barry White

The Walrus of Law?

Dempsey

Lapin wrote: »

So what.

The American way doesn't work

mikeyjames9

what use are tags apart from costing money to set-up and operate?

Wompa1

Dempsey wrote: »

The American way doesn't work

It's not the American system though....it's one part but not all of it. It could apply to the Irish system more effectively...who knows..

Benicetomonty

The guy who ran over that boy had 40 previous convictions, most of which involved him entering a shop armed with a syringe and threatening to infect employees with HIV before making off with stolen moneys.

When he was sentenced, the judge said that his early guilty plea and his "remorse" had to be taken into account, despite the fact that he fled the scene and that he went on a crime spree the week after the accident.

Those two talking about rehabilitation were hard to listen to. There comes a point where some people aren't worth the effort. If 39 slaps on the wrist and (presumably) several cracks at rehab didn't do it, nothing will. That boy would still be alive if there was a reasonable minimum sentence for continuous abuse of parole and contempt for the law.

An extra 18 months on to an 8 year sentence is a joke. The man is a danger to society, as are far too many others like him who receive pathetic sentences in the face of an incredible number of previous convictions.

boombang

I think the lawyers have an inventive to keep criminals offending as they need crime to keep them employed.

Tags might be expensive, but probably less costly than custodial sentences right?

One good use for tags I see would be to tell businesses that a serial shoplifter just walked in the store. Same could go for house breakers or goons in feuds. Tags would probably be cheaper than having the guards' helicopter follow you around.

SparkySpitfire

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The guy who ran over that boy had 40 previous convictions, most of which involved him entering a shop armed with a syringe and threatening to infect employees with HIV before making off with stolen moneys.

When he was sentenced, the judge said that his early guilty plea and his "remorse" had to be taken into account, despite the fact that he fled the scene and that he went on a crime spree the week after the accident.

Those two talking about rehabilitation were hard to listen to. There comes a point where some people aren't worth the effort. If 39 slaps on the wrist and (presumably) several cracks at rehab didn't do it, nothing will. That boy would still be alive if there was a reasonable minimum sentence for continuous abuse of parole and contempt for the law.

An extra 18 months on to an 8 year sentence is a joke. The man is a danger to society, as are far too many others like him who receive pathetic sentences in the face of an incredible number of previous convictions.

Simply put, a little boy's right to life far outweighs a scumbag's right to liberty. Obviously the judges didn't see it this way.

This actually makes me sick.

Cantremember

Dempsey wrote: »

The American way doesn't work

The Irish way does. It is a model of how to protect law abiding citizens. I hope that all those who admire its effectiveness have the opportunity to experience at first hand the attentions of those who have graduated repeatedly from it.

Egginacup

Lapin wrote: »

An excellent suggestion from a law student in the audience that repeat offenders should be tagged so that the Gardaí would know where they are at all times was dismissed by a member of the panel (solicitor James MacGuill) as drachonian, and scoffed that it was the American way of doing things.

Bizzarly, he also said that there is no need to tag scumbags as they get longer sentences everytime they reoffend in any case. This is plainly bollox. We have all seen cases where some little shít with dozens of previous conviction walks out of court giving two fingers to the rest of us.

Why are the judges in this country so soft on criminals?

Tag the fuckers. They'll still have their liberty and if they're not up to no good, they have nothing to worry about.

What do they do in the most crime-free places on Earth? Like Norway?

I'd like some of their wisdom.

Do they tag/beat/castrate/execute people or does it just not seem to happen there?

And why?

mikeyjames9

Egginacup wrote: »

What do they do in the most crime-free places on Earth? Like Norway?

I'd like some of their wisdom.

Do they tag/beat/castrate/execute people or does it just not seem to happen there?

And why?

rehabilitation I imagine

not the revolving door we have here

dublinman1990

I didn't hear the whole of this story but I do think that a scumbag with 40 previous convictions should not have the same rights as everybody else to endanger other people's lives while out on the public street.

A severe jail sentence is entirely appropriate for this thug who killed a defenseless young boy for no apparent reason by doing something that can bring huge damage to the life of one family forever.

Dyr

f**k tags.... repeat offenders, out on TR, suspended sentence etc, all given big highviz jackets that announces to the world that they're a crim.

GPS tag too, so if they're within a two feet of a fellow high viz scumbag for any amount of time then they get sent back down

Highflyer13

A soft legal system suits solicitors as they get plenty of business from repeat offenders.

irishgeo

3 strikes and your out rule. very simple none of this 47 previous convictions crap then.

shruikan2553

How is it draconian? Knowing where someone is vs locking them away. Yeah, we should just hug them better.

catallus

Egginacup wrote: »

What do they do in the most crime-free places on Earth? Like Norway?

They cook the books.

It's very nearly impossible to commit crime in Norway!

Cookie_Monster

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Well it is fairly draconian and indeed the American way of doing things

draconian is having the public suffer time and time again at the hands of these scumbags and having nothing done about it. the whole justice system industry in this country is setup to let offenders off as much as possible from the lowly street scrote right up to politicians and dodgy business men.

Tagging can be fairly effective if correctly carried out.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/29/g4s-staff-sacked-tagging-false-leg
G4S staff sacked for tagging offender's false leg

Man tricked security firm employees by wrapping prosthetic limb in bandage, allowing him to remove it and flout court curfew

Johngoose

If the police were allowed beat the living daylights out of genuine scum,there wouldn't be a need for jail sentences.Put them in hospital if you catch them breaking into houses etc. This sh1t of being remorseful and pleading guilty early,equating to lesser sentences is pitiful.Also the usual: "I had a problem with the drink and the drugs at the time your honour..." is expected to have any onlooker feeling sorry for the scumbag.

Rightwing

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Any reasonable statistics to suggest this is the case? And by reasonable statistics, I don't mean a collection of your favourite Irish Daily Mail articles. Some international comparisons would be good.

Let's try use a bit of common sense instead of worthless head banging statistics.

Turtwig

Sigh I really wish the people proposing this draconian American cop procedural inspired punishments and sentencing actually footed the bill for that crap. Prisons are incredibly expensive! Violent punishments don't seem to deter crime either. All this lust for revenge and justice. Even if the culprit does die in horrific circumstances e.g a horrible form of cancer, you still don't get justice.
Any policies we enact should be targeted primarily at prevention over punishment and support for victims and theirs families. Create a culture where crime isn't a desirable factor not one where it's rampant and a ridiculously high proportion of society are either committing violent crimes or in prison. When it comes to how penal systems and sentencing should operate the United State is the outlier. Not Ireland.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

Sigh I really wish the people proposing this draconian American cop procedural inspired punishments and sentencing actually footed the bill for that crap. Prisons are incredibly expensive! Violent punishments don't seem to deter crime either. All this lust for revenge and justice. Even if the culprit does die in horrific circumstances e.g a horrible form of cancer, you still don't get justice.
Any policies we enact should be targeted primarily at prevention over punishment and support for victims and theirs families. Create a culture where crime isn't a desirable factor not one where it's rampant and a ridiculously high proportion of society are either committing violent crimes or in prison. When it comes to how penal systems and sentencing should operate the United State is the outlier. Not Ireland.

How is putting a tag on a guy with 50 convictions, for a probationary period following his release, draconian? Seriously, how is this a bad idea? What are the downfalls?

GarIT

We need a system where the sentence for any conviction has a penalty based on number of previous convictions added. At a minimum every sentence should have a mandatory 1 month per previous conviction added.

We also need to bring in the death penalty as an option to those convicted of crimes to save on prison costs. As in a convict can opt into the death penalty instead of a prison sentence.

Richard Hillman

The lack of political motivation on crime is something that really baffles me. During the last election there was absolutly no mention of crime from any of the parties. Crime is something that effects everybody. Whether it be the middle classes who are the most targeted in terms of burgalries and car theft or the people who live in council estates that have to live with thugs roaming their streets or hanging on corners.

Cracking down on crime isnt even a divisive thing amongst voters. You dont lose votes by saying we are going to crack down on the soft justice system. Yet it is not even remotely on the political agenda of anybody.

I dont give a toss about statistics, I want to see real justice. I want to see repeat offenders going to prison for a long time and I will gladly pay the expense of putting them up in prison.

moxin

Lapin wrote: »

Tag the fuckers. They'll still have their liberty and if they're not up to no good, they have nothing to worry about.

Tag them with a poppy perhaps?

lm01

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

what use are tags apart from costing money to set-up and operate?

It would let the police know beyond a shadow of a doubt if repeat offenders were in the vicinity when a crime was committed? It's hard to burgle a house or snatch a child from its residence or commit a murder if there's a record of you being there at the scene and when and for how long.

I'm not saying it's a good idea or a fair one but properly implemented it would have to be extremely useful.

osarusan

Tags for everybody!

No crime ever!

Dandy Dandridge

Lapin wrote: »

Why are the judges in this country so soft on criminals?

What's with the stupid questions?

catallus

osarusan wrote: »

Tags for everybody!

No crime ever!

Desperate times, desperate measures.

mikeyjames9

lm01 wrote: »

It would let the police know beyond a shadow of a doubt if repeat offenders were in the vicinity when a crime was committed? It's hard to burgle a house or snatch a child from its residence or commit a murder if there's a record of you being there at the scene and when and for how long.

I'm not saying it's a good idea or a fair one but properly implemented it would have to be extremely useful.

sounds like a waste of time to me

Jogathon

Crime in this country would be very low if we could lock away 5-6 people in every Garda area. The repeat offenders are guilty of the vast majority of crimes. So that's why I think a three strikes system would work well. If they've been caught three times, how many crimes have they got away with? And now think about all these fellas that we see with 60 and upwards convictions! How many crimes are they really responsible for?

nokia69

Turtwig wrote: »

Sigh I really wish the people proposing this draconian American cop procedural inspired punishments and sentencing actually footed the bill for that crap. Prisons are incredibly expensive! Violent punishments don't seem to deter crime either. All this lust for revenge and justice. Even if the culprit does die in horrific circumstances e.g a horrible form of cancer, you still don't get justice.
Any policies we enact should be targeted primarily at prevention over punishment and support for victims and theirs families. Create a culture where crime isn't a desirable factor not one where it's rampant and a ridiculously high proportion of society are either committing violent crimes or in prison. When it comes to how penal systems and sentencing should operate the United State is the outlier. Not Ireland.

yeah prisons are expensive

but then again what price to you put on the damage violent scumbags do, my mothers house was broken into a few years back and she is still nervous and paranoid about her safety, thats a "small" crime but it did massive damage

what price do you but on murder, rape or assault, read the papers and you will notice the scum committing these crimes almost always have previous convictions, if they got the right sentence for their first crimes then the other crimes would not have happened

also I would love to see a break down of prison costs, I bet their are massive savings to be made the figures we hear are just crazy

the legal industry in the country love crime they make a fortune out of it, and they live in areas where they see very little of it

we need a political party that takes law and order seriously

Teyla Emmagan

Honestly, the Blasket islands are just sitting there. Let them fight it out Lord of the Flies style. More than 5 previous convictions and you're shipped out automatically and no one comes looking for you for another 5 years.

nokia69

Dempsey wrote: »

The American way doesn't work

yeah it does

crime has been falling in the US for years

it turns out that if you lock up scumbags the crime rate falls, amazing

anncoates

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The Walrus of Law?

Havin'....sharin' .....making law.

kstand

I had a conversation a year ago at a wedding with a well up detective based in Dublin. We were discussing gangs that were using the motorways to travel down the country in high powered cars and rob rural businesses and farms etc. I asked him if he felt the problem was worsening in Ireland and he said he was - and then asked him if there was a solution and he immediately said "stop their free legal aid".

Free legal aid for well known criminals with numerous convictions has to be the biggest kick in the teeth to the law-abiding citizens of the state, tax-payers in particular. First of all the perpetrator is laughing as they get a brief for free, secondly the briefs themselves are making money on it so the more cases they get the better and thirdly, the tax-payer has to foot the bill.
Now I understand there are genuine cases where people have no money and are up in court for minor offences or where they are actually innocent. In the case where someone is proven innocent then the legal aid should be paid for by the state.
But in the case of some scumbag with 30 convictions - why should the tax-payer have to foot their legal bill for offence 31?
So what In would do is this - give them free legal, but if they are convicted then the bill passes on to them. And they must pay that back with community service or whatever it takes. In the are proven innocent, then the state pays the legal bill.

I would also suggest the introduction of hard labour - but that would be harder to push through with the mountain of bleeding heart liberal that would have to be moved. There could be a points system, categorise each criminal offence on a points scale of 1 to 10 - if you hit say 30 points that's it, you've earned 2 to 5 years hard labour. Working 10 hours a day, no frills prisons, no gyms, playstations, tele for 2 just hours a day, 6 days a week. It might make a scumbag think twice if he had that to face.

And before any idiot comes on here and starts comparing Ireland with say Norway or Iceland - you are dealing with completely different countries and races of people, ways of life etc. We seem to be producing a new breed of feral sociopath in Ireland these days. Religion had a hold on the country up to about 15 years or so ago and in some way, that appeared to help with a certain degree of morality in society - but that is long gone. Ireland seems to be a much more violent place now and that seems to be getting worse. You can pussyfoot around all you like and all these self-righteous self-promoting clowns can harp on about human rights and crap like that but it doesn't take away from the problems nor does it solve anything. People have had enough, the courts are a joke and the free legal aid scheme is making rich people out of some in the legal profession and sticking another 2 fingers up at taxpayers and normal law-abiding citizens.
Tagging isn't a bad idea if it helps locate where these scumbags are.
Its time the human rights of normal law-abiding citizens was put first before the country goes to hell altogether.

Dempsey

nokia69 wrote: »

yeah it does

crime has been falling in the US for years

it turns out that if you lock up scumbags the crime rate falls, amazing

What massaged figures have you been reading?

Billy86

Bambi wrote: »

f**k tags.... repeat offenders, out on TR, suspended sentence etc, all given big highviz jackets that announces to the world that they're a crim.

GPS tag too, so if they're within a two feet of a fellow high viz scumbag for any amount of time then they get sent back down

Yeah yeah, completely yeah. And we can make them electrified jackets so they can get shocked if they are standing in an aisle in the shops too ling. Sure they're definitely going to be just trying to rob stuff. And cameras can be inserted too, for free public broadcasting so we can all see their shame. If they damage the camera, bbbzzzzztt! Electric shock, b*tches!

And they'll have to wear them to bed too so they don't slip out in the night, so we can maybe give them a quick zap at 4am to remind them they're a terrible person.

The shower too! Touching yourself in the shower, eh? BBBZZZZT! Electric shower shock, b*tches!

Oh man, this is going to be so much fun! Better not effect my taxes though...

king_of_inismac

Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

nokia69

Dempsey wrote: »

What massaged figures have you been reading?

AFAIK crime has been falling in the US, there is plenty of argument as to why that is, some claim it was abortion rights, some say its was unleaded petrol others say its locking up criminals

maybe its all these things and some other things too, but it seems to me that if you lock up repeat offenders that it has to result in a drop in crime

kstand

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

That's all valid and well and good - but it doesn't tackle the immediate problems that are there now. I agree that the kids in these situations need to be given a chance, no question - but what chance do they have when the parents are already lost to society themselves? Are you talking about taking these kids off their parents?

nokia69

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Crime is a societal problem. When we are imagining tags, (if we're being honest) we're imagining someone in a tracksuit with a drug problem who grew up in a deprived estate.

The key idea is in the last 6 words of the previous sentence. Unless you provide a better social environment where crime isnt seen as the norm, you'll always have criminals. No amount of tags will fix that.

My OH works in law and deals with people who grew up in socially deprived households. To be perfectly honest, if I grew up there I'd probably be a criminal myself. Be very thankful if your childhood was anyway normal.

Tackling crime begins there, by saving the next generation. That's where the money should be spent.

yeah that would be a big help

but we skill need to lock up serious criminals no matter what we think might be the reason the picked a life of crime

marklazarcovic

Costs too much to keep prisoners inside..hence low sentence revolving door scenario..last thing they want is to have to build more prisons because there are not enough free spots due to longer sentences.

Sh1tbag OToole

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Well it is fairly draconian and indeed the American way of doing things

I dunno mate, sit in court and listen to a victim impact statement from a family who've lost someone. good example. lovely young Dublin woman jogging and crossing the road (at the lights) gets knocked out of her shoes by a speeding car which broke same lights. Driver doing over 100K has no insurance, no tax, it's not her car and she's a raving junkie out of her face on gear at the time.... gets a very short time in prison.... family get a wreath..
made me sick to my stomach.

young woman get a knock on the door, opens it, door gets pushed in and the young man grabs her, sexually assaults her and chokes her while beating her face in. all the while, he tells her he's sorry cos he cannot control himself. he get scared at the sound of a car and runs out!!
she gets to see him walk out of court, ZERO time because he said he was sorry at the time, meaning he had remorse... ZERO time, look it up!!
she goes home every night and will never be the same..

People who say this type of thing is American and draconian have never been effected by serious stuff!! I don't care if I'm banned for saying so and posters can say all they want but when a man can buy his way out of an attempted rape charge and serve one month, walking by the victim, what do we expect!! it's a joke.

Id say if you read all the case files they'd make you sick.