Single life as a guy...

13-10-2014 06:33AM

kiffer wrote: »

What hostility? I think perhaps you are projecting a little or perhaps my usage of the English language is in elegant. I mean after all I was agreeing with you about that author.
70* is an extreme example, I agree, but it wasn't me who originally raised the "ah sure men can have kids till 70 so no/less pressure" idea.
As has been pointed out men have more time to have kids and so clearly women have a larger choice of partners.
If they can't find a man in their own age bracket they can open up the field to a larger selection of men... I don't see what objection to that there can be.
As for women in their 20s chasing men in their 40s... no I don't think that's all that common, but men in their 40s chasing women in their 20s... that is certainly a thing.

*also 70 was the end of a range that I went on to give, 50-70. You can take the end number as the suggested number but that seems a little disingenuous.
If she is having trouble finding a partner in her desired age range with whom to have children she can branch out to the aforementioned 50-70 age bracket.
70 is a bit extreme but it's the end of the bracket I gave, if you think it's a bit extreme then is 65 not extreme? 60?
Where do you place the line so a man is not so old as to be extreme for a woman who is close to the end of her reproductive years? Because the argument that men don't have the time pressure that women do is based off the "men can have kids till 70" thing... but if they're so old that it is extreme that a woman in count down mode wouldn't really consider them out side of unusual circumstances then that's not really time that is available to men...

So yeah, men definitely have more time then women...
but not as much more time as people keep saying.
And women have more options for a father then men have for a mother to their children... but not in a particularly desirable way... it's pretty much a wash as far as I'm concerned.

I'm tired now, waffling and repeating myself, too tired to read over my post, so forgive the repetition, please.

whew! no wonder you're tired :P........... (but good points!)

13-10-2014 06:45AM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

What? Just what?
What 23 year olds do you know? I'm honestly curious about this. I'm 21, most of my friends would be my age or a year older and I can't think of any one of them who'd date a 40 year old. We want guys our own age, from our own generation! Unless I'm secretly surrounded by sugar babies or something.
I'm sure there's some out there, but really, I'm baffled by that.

George Clooney etc don't count, they're sexy famous millionaires - something the average 40 year old is not.

i agree with you. My daughter is 23 and was dating a guy of 35 with a child. She is just out of college last year and the last thing she wanted was someone who had to child mind every weekend instead of going out. Maybe thats not the case with all separated guys but it was with him so it ended after 2 months. She's not ready to think about houses, mortgages, kids. The last thing she wanted was to sit in babysitting with him -even though she liked him. So thats it from another perspective. Timing is everything.

Potatoeman · 13-10-2014 07:15AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

i agree with you. My daughter is 23 and was dating a guy of 35 with a child. She is just out of college last year and the last thing she wanted was someone who had to child mind every weekend instead of going out. Maybe thats not the case with all separated guys but it was with him so it ended after 2 months. She's not ready to think about houses, mortgages, kids. The last thing she wanted was to sit in babysitting with him -even though she liked him. So thats it from another perspective. Timing is everything.

Although you argee with the poster you kind of undermine their point as she did date him.

LordNorbury · 13-10-2014 10:40AM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

How can a woman demand children from "society"?
Being able to demand, doesn't mean it will happen. My friend is 36, relationship just finished, she is longing to start a family - and? What is this demanding of society she can do to get that baby for herself? She needs a partner... or, worst case scenario, a sperm donor. And that doesn't come cheap.

I'm not great with multi-quote messages so I'm going to reply generally to the points you've raised...

First of all, it is a total fallacy to keep insisting that single men without kids who are my age (mid 30's) and older, are going around thinking that it's grand because we can technically father children up until we are 90. Women of childbearing age (women in their 20's and 30's), simply do not end up or entertain men in their 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. Maybe an attractive and successful enough guy who is in his mid 40's can end up with a women who is mid-late 30's, but even this would be rare enough these days I think, as you would be dealing with a 10 year age gap which is not all that common to see these days.

In relation to your quote that I've highlighted above, she isn't "demanding a child from society", what I meant is that she is demanding that her "right" to have children, be accommodated by society and failure of society to protect and uphold that "right" for her, is perceived as gender discrimination. I've made the point that I don't believe that men or women have some sort of absolute right to have children. In law of course they do, but in practice, they don't. I'd love to have kids, I don't, and thankfully I have the grace to accept that as being where I find myself today.

As you've pointed out above as is the case with your friend, her situation and mine are probably identical, same age, both single, both would ideally love to have kids, but that is where the similarities end. I accept that I most probably won't be having kids, I've totally adjusted to that reality, whereas your friend appears to be wholly driven to have children, notwithstanding the fact that she is a single woman. As you've described it above, it sounds like her highest priority is to have children, either through a partner or sperm donor.

I'm not having a go at your friend here, on some level I understand her stronger maternal urge to have kids, (even though I know some of men who have a stronger urge than women to have kids), but there is a big difference here in our perception of the future, your friend doesn't seem to be able to see a future without kids, I have no issue seeing my life without kids. Technically I could travel to India as a single guy and father a child through surrogacy, but this is my point, when is the last time you heard of a guy doing that? The use of sperm donation for pregnancy by single women in their mid-late 30's though is becoming an increasingly regular phenomenon, I personally know of three women who have become mothers via sperm donation.

ZeroThreat · 13-10-2014 11:41AM

Well despite what I said earlier in the thread, height doesn't seem to be a handicap to some people

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11154107/Dwarf-stripper-gets-bride-pregnant-on-her-hen-night.html

Wibbs · 13-10-2014 12:59PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

Maybe an attractive and successful enough guy who is in his mid 40's can end up with a women who is mid-late 30's, but even this would be rare enough these days I think, as you would be dealing with a 10 year age gap which is not all that common to see these days

I dunno LN, if anything I'd say it's more common to see age gap relationships these days(compared to when I was in my 20's back in the 90's), or at least that's been my experience. People's and society's "rules" have become much more relaxed I reckon and not just with age gaps. Going both ways gender wise too. I can think of a few relationships and even marriages where the women are older than the men, up to ten years older. That was pretty rare to see back in the day(I never did, beyond "friends with benefits" arrangements). OK ten year age gaps aren't the "norm" but they're commoner than they were. Of the men I know who aren't married but dating in their 40's I'd reckon around a half of them are or have gone out with women in their 30's, down to the early 30's too and one mate of mine in his late 40's has been in a serious relationship with a woman in her late 20's for over a year. Some of these guys are successful and some are good looking, but some aren't.

LordNorbury · 13-10-2014 01:32PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno LN, if anything I'd say it's more common to see age gap relationships these days(compared to when I was in my 20's back in the 90's), or at least that's been my experience. People's and society's "rules" have become much more relaxed I reckon and not just with age gaps. Going both ways gender wise too. I can think of a few relationships and even marriages where the women are older than the men, up to ten years older. That was pretty rare to see back in the day(I never did, beyond "friends with benefits" arrangements). OK ten year age gaps aren't the "norm" but they're commoner than they were. Of the men I know who aren't married but dating in their 40's I'd reckon around a half of them are or have gone out with women in their 30's, down to the early 30's too and one mate of mine in his late 40's has been in a serious relationship with a woman in her late 20's for over a year. Some of these guys are successful and some are good looking, but some aren't.

I do hear ye there Wibbs, but if you were to take a single guy at aged 50, I think it's fair to say that these guys would be very lucky to end up with a girl in her 20's or 30's these days. Yeah you'll get the odd 23 year old who is into older men and will make a point of seeking out some guy old enough to be her father, but the point I think is still valid, that this myth that is out there that men are alright because we can technically still father a child in our 60's, 70's or 80's, I think that myth needs to be busted, because in reality I think it only holds true up until your mid-late 40's if you are lucky, as you've pointed out. Once you go over 50, I think as far as kids are concerned, a guy is pretty much as redundant as a woman is in that department. Yes of course we can still produce healthy sperm but partnering with someone of child bearing age I think is highly unlikely once you hit the 50's...

ancapailldorcha · 13-10-2014 01:52PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

I do hear ye there Wibbs, but if you were to take a single guy at aged 50, I think it's fair to say that these guys would be very lucky to end up with a girl in her 20's or 30's these days. Yeah you'll get the odd 23 year old who is into older men and will make a point of seeking out some guy old enough to be her father, but the point I think is still valid, that this myth that is out there that men are alright because we can technically still father a child in our 60's, 70's or 80's, I think that myth needs to be busted, because in reality I think it only holds true up until your mid-late 40's if you are lucky, as you've pointed out. Once you go over 50, I think as far as kids are concerned, a guy is pretty much as redundant as a woman is in that department. Yes of course we can still produce healthy sperm but partnering with someone of child bearing age I think is highly unlikely once you hit the 50's...

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a myth, it's more of an unlikely event. People focus on the fact that it's biologically possible rather than the fact that it's highly improbably barring unusual circumstances.

Emme · 13-10-2014 01:54PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

I do hear ye there Wibbs, but if you were to take a single guy at aged 50, I think it's fair to say that these guys would be very lucky to end up with a girl in her 20's or 30's these days. Yeah you'll get the odd 23 year old who is into older men and will make a point of seeking out some guy old enough to be her father, but the point I think is still valid, that this myth that is out there that men are alright because we can technically still father a child in our 60's, 70's or 80's, I think that myth needs to be busted, because in reality I think it only holds true up until your mid-late 40's if you are lucky, as you've pointed out. Once you go over 50, I think as far as kids are concerned, a guy is pretty much as redundant as a woman is in that department. Yes of course we can still produce healthy sperm but partnering with someone of child bearing age I think is highly unlikely once you hit the 50's...

Women in Dublin and other urban centres may prefer to have children with men under 50 but men over 50 in rural Ireland don't seem to have any problem finding women to start families with. Men who wouldn't get a second glance in Dublin are beating women off with a sh! tty stick in the country!

These are normal men - not especially rich or good looking but they would have steady jobs/businesses and homes of their own which would make them a catch in rural Ireland. The typical scenario would be a man in his early to mid 50s with a woman in her 30s. Matches between men in their 40s and women in their 20s are common too. I think emigration has a lot to do with it. In rural families boys are more likely to emigrate than girls. Apparently the statistic is 3 boys emigrating for every 2 girls. That leaves a shortage of men in their 20s and early 30s in rural Ireland.

LordNorbury · 13-10-2014 02:08PM

Emme wrote: »

Women in Dublin and other urban centres may prefer to have children with men under 50 but men over 50 in rural Ireland don't seem to have any problem finding women to start families with. Men who wouldn't get a second glance in Dublin are beating women off with a sh! tty stick in the country!

Of course they don't, because a lot of them have farms! I have friends & extended family living in the rural West of Ireland and it never ceases to amaze me how important road frontage is when it comes to picking a guy for a relationship, something that has always been completely & totally alien to me as a Dublin guy. And these girls are not even ashamed to say that this is the case, there is an openly stated expectation that any guy they consider for a relationship, with a view to settling down, will either have land or will eventually inherit land. It is an obsession I think when I listen to it.

PucaMama · 13-10-2014 03:52PM

Emme wrote: »

Women in Dublin and other urban centres may prefer to have children with men under 50 but men over 50 in rural Ireland don't seem to have any problem finding women to start families with. Men who wouldn't get a second glance in Dublin are beating women off with a sh! tty stick in the country!

These are normal men - not especially rich or good looking but they would have steady jobs/businesses and homes of their own which would make them a catch in rural Ireland. The typical scenario would be a man in his early to mid 50s with a woman in her 30s. Matches between men in their 40s and women in their 20s are common too. I think emigration has a lot to do with it. In rural families boys are more likely to emigrate than girls. Apparently the statistic is 3 boys emigrating for every 2 girls. That leaves a shortage of men in their 20s and early 30s in rural Ireland.

I think its less to do with emigration and more the fact that men in Ireland are encouraged not to settle down in their 20s or 30s. Whereas women don't really have the chance to wait till they are 40 to settle down. Men in Ireland in my experience are encouraged to enjoy themselves go do whatever they want which I think leads to many men in their late 20s still in teenager mode. Now there's plenty of women like that too. Enough to make it strange that someone might want to settle in their 20s. But 30 seems the ok point.

Galwayguy35 · 13-10-2014 04:16PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

Of course they don't, because a lot of them have farms! I have friends & extended family living in the rural West of Ireland and it never ceases to amaze me how important road frontage is when it comes to picking a guy for a relationship, something that has always been completely & totally alien to me as a Dublin guy. And these girls are not even ashamed to say that this is the case, there is an openly stated expectation that any guy they consider for a relationship, with a view to settling down, will either have land or will eventually inherit land. It is an obsession I think when I listen to it.

Not seeing that myself, and I live in the west of Ireland.

fits · 13-10-2014 04:28PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not seeing that myself, and I live in the west of Ireland.

neither do I annd from a rural area also.

jackofalltrades · 13-10-2014 07:51PM

PucaMama wrote: »

I think its less to do with emigration and more the fact that men in Ireland are encouraged not to settle down in their 20s or 30s. Whereas women don't really have the chance to wait till they are 40 to settle down. Men in Ireland in my experience are encouraged to enjoy themselves go do whatever they want which I think leads to many men in their late 20s still in teenager mode. Now there's plenty of women like that too. Enough to make it strange that someone might want to settle in their 20s. But 30 seems the ok point.

Who/what is encouraging men to not settle down in their 20s/30s?

I ask because virtually all my male friends and family members are/were looking to settle down from the late 20s onwards.

Potatoeman · 13-10-2014 09:54PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

Of course they don't, because a lot of them have farms! I have friends & extended family living in the rural West of Ireland and it never ceases to amaze me how important road frontage is when it comes to picking a guy for a relationship, something that has always been completely & totally alien to me as a Dublin guy. And these girls are not even ashamed to say that this is the case, there is an openly stated expectation that any guy they consider for a relationship, with a view to settling down, will either have land or will eventually inherit land. It is an obsession I think when I listen to it.

It happens in the city too. The old 'do you own or are you renting?' question.

Shakespeare's Sister · 13-10-2014 10:47PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

First of all, it is a total fallacy to keep insisting that single men without kids who are my age (mid 30's) and older, are going around thinking that it's grand because we can technically father children up until we are 90. Women of childbearing age (women in their 20's and 30's), simply do not end up or entertain men in their 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. Maybe an attractive and successful enough guy who is in his mid 40's can end up with a women who is mid-late 30's, but even this would be rare enough these days I think, as you would be dealing with a 10 year age gap which is not all that common to see these days.

In relation to your quote that I've highlighted above, she isn't "demanding a child from society", what I meant is that she is demanding that her "right" to have children, be accommodated by society and failure of society to protect and uphold that "right" for her, is perceived as gender discrimination. I've made the point that I don't believe that men or women have some sort of absolute right to have children. In law of course they do, but in practice, they don't. I'd love to have kids, I don't, and thankfully I have the grace to accept that as being where I find myself today.

As you've pointed out above as is the case with your friend, her situation and mine are probably identical, same age, both single, both would ideally love to have kids, but that is where the similarities end. I accept that I most probably won't be having kids, I've totally adjusted to that reality, whereas your friend appears to be wholly driven to have children, notwithstanding the fact that she is a single woman. As you've described it above, it sounds like her highest priority is to have children, either through a partner or sperm donor.

I'm not having a go at your friend here, on some level I understand her stronger maternal urge to have kids, (even though I know some of men who have a stronger urge than women to have kids), but there is a big difference here in our perception of the future, your friend doesn't seem to be able to see a future without kids, I have no issue seeing my life without kids. Technically I could travel to India as a single guy and father a child through surrogacy, but this is my point, when is the last time you heard of a guy doing that? The use of sperm donation for pregnancy by single women in their mid-late 30's though is becoming an increasingly regular phenomenon, I personally know of three women who have become mothers via sperm donation.

Ok I'm not saying guys who want kids are grand because they can father kids forever - of course that's no use if they have nobody with whom to pro-create, and obviously the older a man is, the less likely he will be able to get together with a fertile woman.
What I don't understand though is you saying a single woman your age who wants children is in a better position than a single man your age who wants children. Neither is in a great position but from a biological perspective, obviously the woman is in a worse one - I mean there's no contesting that.

There may be more receptiveness to women in their late 30s conceiving via sperm donor, but it costs a lot of money - it's not something a woman can just dive into. Obviously it would be a lot easier if she simply wasn't single.
If a man ends up meeting a woman in the second half of her 30s when he's 45 (and that's happening more and more nowadays) they have a chance of starting a family. A woman who meets her long-term partner when she's 45 has virtually no chance of doing so - well the standard way anyway.

14-10-2014 06:41AM

Potatoeman wrote: »

Although you argee with the poster you kind of undermine their point as she did date him.

yeah ..... until she found out the reality of dating a man with kids!
(obviously this was her first experience and it taught her a lot she didnt know before - 2 months was the learning curve)

Potatoeman · 14-10-2014 07:03AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

yeah ..... until she found out the reality of dating a man with kids!
(obviously this was her first experience and it taught her a lot she didnt know before - 2 months was the learning curve)

It was not his age though. It was the fact he had kids. The poster you were agreeing with said her and her friends would not date someone older.

LordNorbury · 14-10-2014 09:19AM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Ok I'm not saying guys who want kids are grand because they can father kids forever - of course that's no use if they have nobody with whom to pro-create, and obviously the older a man is, the less likely he will be able to get together with a fertile woman.
What I don't understand though is you saying a single woman your age who wants children is in a better position than a single man your age who wants children. Neither is in a great position but from a biological perspective, obviously the woman is in a worse one - I mean there's no contesting that.

There may be more receptiveness to women in their late 30s conceiving via sperm donor, but it costs a lot of money - it's not something a woman can just dive into. Obviously it would be a lot easier if she simply wasn't single.
If a man ends up meeting a woman in the second half of her 30s when he's 45 (and that's happening more and more nowadays) they have a chance of starting a family. A woman who meets her long-term partner when she's 45 has virtually no chance of doing so - well the standard way anyway.

Yeah but you've more or less confirmed the point I'm making above. I'm in my mid 30's, no kids as I've said, I've processed that as a fact, accepted it, and moved on with my life as a single person. Me meeting someone today, who based on my own experience would probably be very close in age to me, if I were to consider kids with such a woman, I'd have to put in a few years with her relationship wise, and in my case, this puts me right up against 40. The well known risks involved, along with a load of other factors such as costs, etc, have left me in a position where I basically don't want to have kids in the future, although on a emotional level it is something that I do wish had panned out very differently as I am actually great with kids.

But the difference in perception that I'm referring to I think is obvious within your last post, which is that it appears to me, and I could be wrong here, that what I have gently accepted as a fact and as a reality for me, which is that my life has simply played out in a way that has not involved me having kids, call it "fate", call it a series of poor decisions that may have been made at a particularly critical time in my life, call it "bad luck", put it down to the recession or whatever, as you have mentioned in your post, a woman a few years older than me will simply not settle into the same emotional place when faced with the same realities.

Instead as you have pointed out, these days, producing a child seems seems to go to the very centre of her adult existence, so instead of ending up where I have found myself in terms of my view or in a somewhat similar or comparable place, an almost opposite view is adopted, which is that sperm donation is a last option, etc. I can tell you myself that not once but twice, I have been sounded out on internet dates (in dinner conversation), as to whether I would consider sleeping with a girl to make her pregnant, and I was advised that if I were ever open to the idea, I would not be held to maintenance or have my name put on a birth cert, etc, that basically no support of any type whatsoever, financial or otherwise, would be sought from me if I were to agree. I know of one girl personally (friend of a friend), who has proceeded with such as arrangement, and now has an infant child from this arrangement.

The point I'm still making is what on earth is so wrong with saying that maybe a woman will not have children? I have to accept that reality, loads of other guys have to accept that reality, I know women are generally more driven to have children than men, but I still think the difference in perception between single men and single women, (who do not have kids), is somewhat scary these days. Some single women I know who are hell bent on having a child, I wouldn't even consider to be that maternal, it often looks like a box ticking exercise to me, that because her friends are settled and having kids that therefore she has to go down the same route or otherwise she looks left on the shelf. It increasingly looks like sheer desperation I think. Guys just don't seem to worry about how it looks to the wider herd, it just is what it is, C'est La Vie!

Seriously? · 14-10-2014 10:30AM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

What I don't understand though is you saying a single woman your age who wants children is in a better position than a single man your age who wants children. Neither is in a great position but from a biological perspective, obviously the woman is in a worse one - I mean there's no contesting that.

Actually I'd contest that, let’s say they're early to mid thirties like the poster; that’s still an age at which a sizable number of women give birth.

Now as to who is in a better position when it comes to deciding who has kids; well that's got to be the woman since they're the only ones who get the call the shots on that score. Because when it comes to reproductive rights women have them and men don’t.

As to if they can financially support having kids, well on that score they are at best no worse off than a male and if we go by recent statistics, then if they're in a professional career then they're likely to be better off than the male counterpart.

LordNorbury · 14-10-2014 10:44AM

Seriously? wrote: »

Actually I'd contest that, let’s say they're early to mid thirties like the poster; that’s still an age at which a sizable number of women give birth.

Now as to who is in a better position when it comes to deciding who has kids; well that's got to be the woman since they're the only ones who get the call the shots on that score. Because when it comes to reproductive rights women have them and men don’t.

As to if they can financially support having kids, well on that score they are at best no worse off than a male and if we go by recent statistics, then if they're in a professional career then they're likely to be better off than the male counterpart.

When I've discussed this particular aspect of potential parenthood with some women I know as friends, (single women typically in their 30's who are now single, childless and very serious, very driven and very determined about somehow having a child in the not too distant future), the answer invariably these days is, "look you just make it work, you get by, you have support from family and friends, I might not be rich but I'll have the basics and my child will be loved and that is the main thing and to me, that is all that really matters..."

But the starting point every time is: "I just want to have a child", there is almost some sort of a strongly perceived injustice that is often detected, that this has not already happened for them, and then all other considerations get arranged around the core desire to have a child or children.

But as a guy, the starting point for me is always in a much more pragmatic place and a lot less emotional place, I would look at the crippling costs of childcare, the general high cost of living in this country and particularly in Dublin, the downside risks if the child has ill health, in a country with a 3rd world health service, the serious downside risks to me, particularly in this jurisdiction if me and the mother end up splitting up, I'm regulated pretty much overnight to the role of weekend dad with minimal access rights, I may have to go to court to enjoy even these basic rights of access. As a guy, I add up and assess these considerations and unless I meet some utterly amazing woman, I end up just reckoning that it is too much hassle to have kids in the times we are currently living in, and I'm completely grand with that.

NI24 · 16-10-2014 05:30AM

LordNorbury wrote: »

When I've discussed this particular aspect of potential parenthood with some women I know as friends, (single women typically in their 30's who are now single, childless and very serious, very driven and very determined about somehow having a child in the not too distant future), the answer invariably these days is, "look you just make it work, you get by, you have support from family and friends, I might not be rich but I'll have the basics and my child will be loved and that is the main thing and to me, that is all that really matters..."

But the starting point every time is: "I just want to have a child", there is almost some sort of a strongly perceived injustice that is often detected, that this has not already happened for them, and then all other considerations get arranged around the core desire to have a child or children.

But as a guy, the starting point for me is always in a much more pragmatic place and a lot less emotional place, I would look at the crippling costs of childcare, the general high cost of living in this country and particularly in Dublin, the downside risks if the child has ill health, in a country with a 3rd world health service, the serious downside risks to me, particularly in this jurisdiction if me and the mother end up splitting up, I'm regulated pretty much overnight to the role of weekend dad with minimal access rights, I may have to go to court to enjoy even these basic rights of access. As a guy, I add up and assess these considerations and unless I meet some utterly amazing woman, I end up just reckoning that it is too much hassle to have kids in the times we are currently living in, and I'm completely grand with that.

The part about women wanting children and it coming from an emotional place I strongly agree with, but I had to gawk at "3rd world health service". Do you have any concept of what 3rd world really is? Cause I guarantee you it ain't Ireland. Hell, it isn't even the U.S., and our healthcare is years behind Ireland's (in terms of availability towards the poor and working classes). If you feel you're not in a financial place to support children then that's fair enough, but placing part of the blame on what most people in the world would consider top notch healthcare just sounds ludicrous. Obviously I'm an American and an Irish person would know more about their own healthcare system than I would, but from what I've gathered over the years from this site alone, Ireland has it pretty sweet in that regard.

(Btw, hate to start posting here with something so negative, but this literally made me balk)

LordNorbury · 16-10-2014 02:31PM

NI24 wrote: »

The part about women wanting children and it coming from an emotional place I strongly agree with, but I had to gawk at "3rd world health service". Do you have any concept of what 3rd world really is? Cause I guarantee you it ain't Ireland. Hell, it isn't even the U.S., and our healthcare is years behind Ireland's (in terms of availability towards the poor and working classes). If you feel you're not in a financial place to support children then that's fair enough, but placing part of the blame on what most people in the world would consider top notch healthcare just sounds ludicrous. Obviously I'm an American and an Irish person would know more about their own healthcare system than I would, but from what I've gathered over the years from this site alone, Ireland has it pretty sweet in that regard.

(Btw, hate to start posting here with something so negative, but this literally made me balk)

Well I don't want to go off topic here but I want to respond to the point you've made. As I understand it, the health service in this country is a humongous black hole, and no matter how much money you pump into it, what you get out the other end are hospitals that are barely fit for purpose, that have chronic front line staff shortages, huge waiting lists, and some very serious problems when it comes to A & E, with huge numbers of people on any given day languishing on trollies in crowded corridors. I have a friend who works in a Dublin maternity hospital and the staff morale and the understaffing she describes, I personally consider to be somewhat frightening.

That's only a small part of it for me, the healthcare aspect of it, there are a whole load of other considerations that to me, would leave me thinking that trying to raise a child or children in this country is just too much of a struggle. People I see around me who have kids, middle income couples both earning 40K, with 2-3 kids, are really struggling, they are living a month to month type existence, with hardly any money left to do anything with at the end of the month, after mortgage costs, childcare costs, school costs, and the rest of it are all paid for.

That's just my assessment, that leads me to believe that I would not want to have children in this country, as I currently perceive things. Other factors that I've mentioned above, also feed into that decision such as my age, a potential partners age and the risks of having a child with serious health issues on that basis, then add in the risks of the relationship not working out and being a weekend Dad and all the hassle, financial and emotional hardship that would come with that, and I know plenty of guys my own age in that situation.

Other people are of course entitled to a different view.

Piliger · 16-10-2014 02:33PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

Other people are of course entitled to a different view.

I certainly do and challenge every single assertion.

LordNorbury · 16-10-2014 02:40PM

Piliger wrote: »

I certainly do and challenge every single assertion.

Go for it. I've a good friend who was in a relationship with a girl and they had 2 children, his partner and the mother of his child decided she didn't really want him around the place anymore and had him kicked out of the house and moved another guy into the house a few months later. She took him to court for maintenance of two kids and to pay for half the mortgage for the house that she had moved another guy into. This is probably a worst case example of a couple splitting up but you simply can't deny that it is a very common occurrence these days, (a father becoming estranged from his family). It is a well known fact that a guy in this situation (unmarried), in Ireland has no rights whatsoever when it comes to his relationship with his child. You have to go to court to have access to those rights.

Childcare costs in this country are as far as I know the most expensive in the developed world, usually costing more than someone's mortgage every month, if you have two kids, that's twice your mortgage costs every month.

I'm not making this stuff up, why you think I should look at these well known and well accepted risks and realities and then completely ignore them, I'm not too sure...

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2014 02:42PM

[QUOTE=LordNorbury;92636097Childcare costs in this country are as far as I know the most expensive in the developed world, usually costing more than someone's mortgage every month, if you have two kids, that's twice your mortgage costs every month.[/QUOTE]

3rd as it happens. Scary.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/21/child-care-costs-compared-britain

LordNorbury · 16-10-2014 02:49PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

3rd as it happens. Scary.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/21/child-care-costs-compared-britain

I thought we were the most expensive, I'd find it hard to believe that we are cheaper than the UK for childcare costs considering that we are pretty mush more expensive for practically everything else, because the cost of doing business here is known to be higher than in the UK, so things like electricity/energy costs, insurance costs (thanks to our claim culture), cost of finance, labour costs, are all known to be higher here than in teh UK, so how we have cheaper childcare cots on the back of higher business costs, cost of renting property, etc. I can't understand. But I don't want to get caught up on any one particular point, in totality, when all factors are fully considered, it is an absolute no brainer for me to not want to have kids in this country. Other people may carry out the same assessment and find themselves in a totally different place, which I would fully respect.

ardmacha · 16-10-2014 02:57PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

But I don't want to get caught up on any one particular point, in totality, when all factors are fully considered, it is an absolute no brainer for me to not want to have kids in this country. Other people may carry out the same assessment and find themselves in a totally different place, which I would fully respect.

Fair enough to say that you don't want kids. But it is a bit of a cop out to blame the country, one of the top dozen in the world in the UN Human Development Index. Even relationship breakup is less common in Ireland than many places and is a function of the two people involved, not the country.

LordNorbury · 16-10-2014 03:07PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Fair enough to say that you don't want kids. But it is a bit of a cop out to blame the country, one of the top dozen in the world in the UN Human Development Index. Even relationship breakup is less common in Ireland than many places and is a function of the two people involved, not the country.

I'm not blaming "the country" as such, the high cost of living and the high cost of childcare is directly related to the country I live in. The availability of affordable and decent housing, or in the case of Ireland/Dublin, the unavailability thereof, is directly related to the country I live in, the legal framework that deals with access to my kids (none if I am not married, unless I go to court), is directly related to the country I live in.

Yes I could find someone who I would never split from and live happily ever after, but the downside risks of it panning out the other way are simply too high for me. I would of course reconsider all this if I met someone I could see myself spending my life with, but I don't see a huge amount of that type of happiness going on around me in relation to other couples I know, and I haven't found anything remotely along those lines myself in recent years.

PucaMama · 16-10-2014 03:29PM

LordNorbury wrote: »

Go for it. I've a good friend who was in a relationship with a girl and they had 2 children, his partner and the mother of his child decided she didn't really want him around the place anymore and had him kicked out of the house and moved another guy into the house a few months later. She took him to court for maintenance of two kids and to pay for half the mortgage for the house that she had moved another guy into. This is probably a worst case example of a couple splitting up but you simply can't deny that it is a very common occurrence these days, (a father becoming estranged from his family). It is a well known fact that a guy in this situation (unmarried), in Ireland has no rights whatsoever when it comes to his relationship with his child. You have to go to court to have access to those rights.

Childcare costs in this country are as far as I know the most expensive in the developed world, usually costing more than someone's mortgage every month, if you have two kids, that's twice your mortgage costs every month.

I'm not making this stuff up, why you think I should look at these well known and well accepted risks and realities and then completely ignore them, I'm not too sure...

id put money on the fact that that woman didnt just decide one day she didnt want him around. remember that even though those childrens parents are broken up maintenance still has to be paid. also, you probably are firmly on your friends side :rolleyes: did you happen to sit down with both before deciding?

Single life as a guy...

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