Turning a mule into a race horse.

Pacing Mule · 21-09-2014 09:31PM

SamforMayo wrote: »

I m not an experienced runner but I remember a couple of my LSR s last year at this stage were so tough, I really thought I would never finish a marathon with how bad they were. Its very difficult to do 20 miles alone and fair play you kept going. As you said your 18 miler went well so don't worry about today. Did you take an gels?

Should have said that actually.

Yes 4 gels along way plus an energy drink grabbed from Spar walkinstown along the way. Had decent breakfast an hour before setting off too so I think nutrition was ok.

yaboya1 · 21-09-2014 09:38PM

When you're struggling in the marathon, you'll remember how you toughed out a 20 miler in training (without the crowds cheering you on). In my opinion it will stand to you. Training is not supposed to be easy. Be proud you worked through it and finished out the session.

I remember reading this somewhere and I never forgot it (probably applies more to the race itself):

"If it's not hurting after 20 miles, you're doing it wrong."

I always repeat that in my head when I start struggling in the latter stages of a marathon. You won't be alone, and certainly aren't alone having a 20 miler in training that you didn't breeze through.

Murph_D · 21-09-2014 10:50PM

I followed HHN2 for DCM 2012 and I remember that 20 miler. I picked a much less challenging route than you and according to my log I struggled to average 10:49 pace but was much slower than that over the last couple of miles. (In fact i was hurting and aching all through that first marathon plan!)

You'll be grand.

ecoli · 21-09-2014 11:01PM

That 20 miler was a great session whether you think it or not, You hit low points and pushed on and finished. This is something which is often overlooked in plans. It's all well and good getting the body physically prepared but its those character building mental battles which make or break the marathon

The fact of the matter is no matter how many miles you have ran, how many marathons you have done, what pace you are doing the fact of the matter is there are times come race day where you are going to be in a dark place and start to struggle either physically or mentally (anyone who won't admit that is lying, sure me and DQ have got it in pacing efforts where some miles feel tougher than they should regardless of effort) Its in these dark moments where you remember the times in training where you struggled and pushed on.

You have already listed a number of factors which could have attributed to why you were feeling bad (wouldn't overanalyse this list to much IMO) but the main thing is you kept going when your body didn't want to that is something to remember. Its all well and good getting confidence from the good sessions but the ones that stand to you are the bad days you grind it out

Pacing Mule · 22-09-2014 03:26PM

Thanks very much guys and gals for the words of wisdom and encouragement. I was certainly feeling on the negative side of things yesterday and it was much appreciated to have the positives emphasised. Won't make any pacing decisions until the next 20 miler is done in 2 weeks. In mean time will take up Quirkys suggestion on the MP miles and CMs approach to them too.

I have a massage booked in with ecoli for later in the week too which will hopefully loosen up some of the tightness that may have contributed to the niggles yesterday.

As a matter of interest murph what was your finishing time in 2012 ? Was quite interesting to hear you struggled too on the first 20 miler (actually my plan had a 19 but I wanted to make it 2x20 so had slotted in an extra mile)

Murph_D · 22-09-2014 05:07PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

As a matter of interest murph what was your finishing time in 2012 ? Was quite interesting to hear you struggled too on the first 20 miler (actually my plan had a 19 but I wanted to make it 2x20 so had slotted in an extra mile)

Finished in 4:02, not quite managing the sub-4. Missed my 3:45 target by a minute in 2013. Hoping to finally manage to hit the planned time this Sunday!

Pacing Mule · 22-09-2014 09:18PM

Murph_D wrote: »

Finished in 4:02, not quite managing the sub-4. Missed my 3:45 target by a minute in 2013. Hoping to finally manage to hit the planned time this Sunday!

I really hope you do it mate !

That gives me a bit of a boost though tbh. My avg yesterday was 10:47 so it's reassuring to hear you got home in 4:02 on the big day in 2012.

Pacing Mule · 24-09-2014 04:47PM

Was out running today. Felt like a sniper had taken a shot at my calve. They've been too tight for weeks. Sudden shooting stinging and burning sensation radiating from the right calve. Pulled up and sat down close to tears - my DCM aspirations gone in one awful moment of a calve tear.

Then I found the puncture wound and realised I had been stung by a bee. Happy days !

3.5 miles done in the end. A little shy of where it should have been but ran out of time. Might get out for a couple later but won't be too bothered if I don't.

SamforMayo · 24-09-2014 09:21PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Was out running today. Felt like a sniper had taken a shot at my calve. They've been too tight for weeks. Sudden shooting stinging and burning sensation radiating from the right calve. Pulled up and sat down close to tears - my DCM aspirations gone in one awful moment of a calve tear.

Then I found the puncture wound and realised I had been stung by a bee. Happy days !

3.5 miles done in the end. A little shy of where it should have been but ran out of time. Might get out for a couple later but won't be too bothered if I don't.

Now Mr, getting the calves sorted, you got your warning!!!!

Pacing Mule · 24-09-2014 09:42PM

SamforMayo wrote: »

Now Mr, getting the calves sorted, you got your warning!!!!

Booked in with ecoli tomorrow !

Pacing Mule · 26-09-2014 07:32PM

Must read plans better

Thursday
Thought I was down for 5m at pace for some reason. Felt really good after the first mile and made it a bit of a tempo in middle. Splits of

9:51, 9:09, 8:53, 9:09, 9:55, 10:14 cool down for half a mile.

Ecoli then battered my legs. Much work needed on the tight calves.

Today
Doh ! Realised I should have done 8 easy last night instead of 5 at pace. Was scheduled for 5 easy today so decided to meet in the middle and do 7 easy.

Ecoli had mentioned yesterday that I would most likely feel sluggish today. Thought he may have been overly cautious as I felt great for 2 miles. By 3rd mile was actually laughing such was the sluggish feeling in the legs.

Dipped pace a little bit then to maintain easy effort but it soon passed.

Ended up with 7 miles at 10:14 avg which is MP + 45ish - where I'd like the easy runs to be for the moment and most importantly felt easy.

Pacing Mule · 28-09-2014 01:55PM

Really pleased with todays run.

12 mile stepback LSR. As advised by Dr Q and CM I hit this with the intention of throwing in MP miles along the way. What I opted for was:
2E, 3 MP, 1E, 2MP, 1E, 1MP, 1E and then 1 whatever I had left pace.

Headed 5 miles down to the Phoenix Park and 7 around the park itself. My MP if going at 4:10 is 9:32. I had the intention of being flexible with this as the route wasn't too flat. If downhill I'd be looking at a little quicker, if going uphill a little slower. Felt quite good all the way. Little tough for the last MP mile which was from around the bottom of the Kyber to the back of the zoo but considering that had a 100ft gain no great surprise there. Likewise some of the MP miles felt very easy but have to balance that out with a decline hence some of them being a good bit quicker. On the last easy mile I didn't know if I had much left but as it turned out had quite a bit left to blow out the last mile.

Splits:
10:22, 10:14
9:22, 9:23, 9:26
10:10
9:26, 9:07
10:11
09:25
10:19
08:22

Along the way took out a PB for 10 miles too which was an added bonus - haven't raced 10 miles in a while so that would be a soft PB but still a clear sign of progress.

Overall a decent confidence booster after last weekend. The bigger test comes this weekend with another crack at 20.

SamforMayo · 28-09-2014 02:10PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Really pleased with todays run.

12 mile stepback LSR. As advised by Dr Q and CM I hit this with the intention of throwing in MP miles along the way. What I opted for was:
2E, 3 MP, 1E, 2MP, 1E, 1MP, 1E and then 1 whatever I had left pace.

Headed 5 miles down to the Phoenix Park and 7 around the park itself. My MP if going at 4:10 is 9:32. I had the intention of being flexible with this as the route wasn't too flat. If downhill I'd be looking at a little quicker, if going uphill a little slower. Felt quite good all the way. Little tough for the last MP mile which was from around the bottom of the Kyber to the back of the zoo but considering that had a 100ft gain no great surprise there. Likewise some of the MP miles felt very easy but have to balance that out with a decline hence some of them being a good bit quicker. On the last easy mile I didn't know if I had much left but as it turned out had quite a bit left to blow out the last mile.

Splits:
10:22, 10:14
9:22, 9:23, 9:26
10:10
9:26, 9:07
10:11
09:25
10:19
08:22

Along the way took out a PB for 10 miles too which was an added bonus - haven't raced 10 miles in a while so that would be a soft PB but still a clear sign of progress.

Overall a decent confidence booster after last weekend. The bigger test comes this weekend with another crack at 20.

Well done, make sure you have everything spot on for your 20 miler, good nutrition, good rest, well planned etc and you will nail it!

Pacing Mule · 01-10-2014 08:07PM

Frustrating times. I've a chesty cough and sore throat so as tempted as I am to be out running it just wouldn't be smart. I am a bit panicky about missed runs but I'm glad I am sick now and not in 3 weeks time.

On the positive side I fitted into 32 inch jeans last night. Still a bit too tight to be wearing out without looking completely beat into them

but closing the button on a 32 waist is something I haven't done in well over a decade. This time last year closing a 38 needed deep breaths and a squeeze !

irish_bhoy82 · 01-10-2014 09:06PM

On the positive side I fitted into 32 inch jeans last night. Still a bit too tight to be wearing out without looking completely beat into them

but closing the button on a 32 waist is something I haven't done in well over a decade. This time last year closing a 38 needed deep breaths and a squeeze ![/quote]

I put a pair of jeans on today that I bought about 2 years ago that I refused to wear after 1 or 2 times as they were too snug... but wearing them today they were alot more comfortable. And saves buying a new pair.

dukeraoul · 01-10-2014 09:21PM

PM - you've done it properly this year. Much respect. The training has been good, the weight loss is class and you deserve a great DCM... Heal up .

DQ

Pacing Mule · 05-10-2014 09:19PM

I may have cocked up

So I was out of action all week with the chesty cough - missing all midweek runs. Felt ok yesterday so decided to press ahead with the LSR 20 miler today. Potential mistake 1 - Doing 20 miles after a full week off.

I had asked Mrs Mule to get me a new pair of under shorts to wear this run as a dress rehearsal for the big day. My current shorts are too big for me and are chaffing on longer runs. She came back with compression shorts which /I have never worn before. They fitted grand, were tight in the right places but Potential mistake 2 - wearing compression shorts when not used to them.

The reason for mentioning potential mistakes is that within 1 mile my left hamstring gave a couple of twinges. Didn't stay too long but enough to concern me that the shorts perhaps were compressing the muscles into a place they weren't used to being. Could be completely wrong on that of course. Kept going. By mile 8 the inside of my right calve started feeling weird - like a dead leg. At the same time the hammy on the left leg started acting up again. Ended up stopping for a few minutes after 9.5 miles to give everything a good stretch. Considered canning the entire thing but I was halfway in and would have to do the distance anyway. Potential Mistake 3: Decided to plough on and push through as long as the pain didn't get sharp or severe.

Settled into a good rhythm. Soon enough the pain in both areas was integrated into the general all round leg pains that comes with fatiguing muscles and all was good. Very quick stop at one point to tie a shoe lace and strecth again. It was only when I stopped afterwards that I realised how sore the calf actually was to touch and how tender it was to walk on. Plenty of ice now and am really hoping that it's not a proper injury as such.

I had picked an easier route than last 20 miler. Dropping down from Blanch area through the park, up the liffey to east link and then out as far as Dalkey so the first few miles were downhill - let the pace go a bit faster for these. Apart from the two niggles I did feel a lot more comfortable for the run, ran it faster than the last 20 miles and only really felt it right at the end for the last mile which I had already elected to run a little slower as a cool down.

Splits:
10:18, 10:23, 10:26, 10:38, 10:18, 10:10, 10:12, 10:36, 10:24, 10:03, 10:30, 11:16, 10:36, 10:19, 10:48, 10:21, 10:27, 10:37, 10:54

Avg Pace 10:29

So I've ended up 15 seconds per mile faster than the first one, feeling a lot more comfortable but picking up 2 niggles - one more serious than the other.

Not sure what to make of all that. If anyone has any thoughts on the 3 potential mistakes I'm happy to hear them. Will start thinking properly about nailing a target pace for DCM once I know the calve is ok - already feels a good bit better. My instinct though at moment is to perhaps step back again to 4:20 target with an option to push on later rather than hanging in for 4:10. Today was quiet comfortable but the last mile was tough. I'm as good as a first timer as this is my first hopefully properly trained for running the whole way marathon. I'm starting to think I want to enjoy the thing rather than be aggressive with a target. Again any thoughts on target paces are quite welcome too.

dukeraoul · 05-10-2014 09:26PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

I may have cocked up

So I was out of action all week with the chesty cough - missing all midweek runs. Felt ok yesterday so decided to press ahead with the LSR 20 miler today. Potential mistake 1 - Doing 20 miles after a full week off.

I had asked Mrs Mule to get me a new pair of under shorts to wear this run as a dress rehearsal for the big day. My current shorts are too big for me and are chaffing on longer runs. She came back with compression shorts which /I have never worn before. They fitted grand, were tight in the right places but Potential mistake 2 - wearing compression shorts when not used to them.

The reason for mentioning potential mistakes is that within 1 mile my left hamstring gave a couple of twinges. Didn't stay too long but enough to concern me that the shorts perhaps were compressing the muscles into a place they weren't used to being. Could be completely wrong on that of course. Kept going. By mile 8 the inside of my right calve started feeling weird - like a dead leg. At the same time the hammy on the left leg started acting up again. Ended up stopping for a few minutes after 9.5 miles to give everything a good stretch. Considered canning the entire thing but I was halfway in and would have to do the distance anyway. Potential Mistake 3: Decided to plough on and push through as long as the pain didn't get sharp or severe.

Settled into a good rhythm. Soon enough the pain in both areas was integrated into the general all round leg pains that comes with fatiguing muscles and all was good. Very quick stop at one point to tie a shoe lace and strecth again. It was only when I stopped afterwards that I realised how sore the calf actually was to touch and how tender it was to walk on. Plenty of ice now and am really hoping that it's not a proper injury as such.

I had picked an easier route than last 20 miler. Dropping down from Blanch area through the park, up the liffey to east link and then out as far as Dalkey so the first few miles were downhill - let the pace go a bit faster for these. Apart from the two niggles I did feel a lot more comfortable for the run, ran it faster than the last 20 miles and only really felt it right at the end for the last mile which I had already elected to run a little slower as a cool down.

Splits:
10:18, 10:23, 10:26, 10:38, 10:18, 10:10, 10:12, 10:36, 10:24, 10:03, 10:30, 11:16, 10:36, 10:19, 10:48, 10:21, 10:27, 10:37, 10:54

Avg Pace 10:29

So I've ended up 15 seconds per mile faster than the first one, feeling a lot more comfortable but picking up 2 niggles - one more serious than the other.

Not sure what to make of all that. If anyone has any thoughts on the 3 potential mistakes I'm happy to hear them. Will start thinking properly about nailing a target pace for DCM once I know the calve is ok - already feels a good bit better. My instinct though at moment is to perhaps step back again to 4:20 target with an option to push on later rather than hanging in for 4:10. Today was quiet comfortable but the last mile was tough. I'm as good as a first timer as this is my first hopefully properly trained for running the whole way marathon. I'm starting to think I want to enjoy the thing rather than be aggressive with a target. Again any thoughts on target paces are quite welcome too.

Mistake 1: don't worry but it doesn't surprise me that you were a bit tight/sore

Mistake 2: PM this is a completely mental theory- it's the kind of mad **** I'd come up with during a taper

seriously though - zero chance your shorts caused a leg injury!

Mistake 3: I reckon pushing on was ok and you'll be fine but make sure you actively recover this week w/ nice slow easy runs (at least for the first 4-5 days an ways)

RedRunner · 05-10-2014 09:39PM

dukeraoul wrote: »

Mistake 1: don't worry but it doesn't surprise me that you were a bit tight/sore

Mistake 2: PM this is a completely mental theory- it's the kind of mad **** I'd come up with during a taper seriously though - zero chance your shorts caused a leg injury!

Mistake 3: I reckon pushing on was ok and you'll be fine but make sure you actively recover this week w/ nice slow easy runs (at least for the first 4-5 days an ways)

I'd agree 100% with this.

As for pace PM....
my gut feeling is you should go with 9:30min/mi or 4:15 target.

Pacing Mule · 05-10-2014 09:58PM

dukeraoul wrote: »

Mistake 2: PM this is a completely mental theory- it's the kind of mad **** I'd come up with during a taper seriously though - zero chance your shorts caused a leg injury!

Put like that - lol yeah bat**** crazy. Mrs Mule found that hilarious.

Pacing Mule · 07-10-2014 04:00PM

RedRunner wrote: »

I'd agree 100% with this.

As for pace PM....
my gut feeling is you should go with 9:30min/mi or 4:15 target.

Hi R

Hope things are well with you. 4:15 is what I originally thought about as a step back target. The only issue with it is that it falls between two pace bands. Now I could go run by myself as such but I think I might enjoy the company of a group too hence the floating of a 4:20

Decisions decisions decisions

RedRunner · 07-10-2014 04:11PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Hi R

Hope things are well with you. 4:15 is what I originally thought about as a step back target. The only issue with it is that it falls between two pace bands. Now I could go run by myself as such but I think I might enjoy the company of a group too hence the floating of a 4:20

Decisions decisions decisions

I was thinking that afterwards alright. Sure join the 4:20 train and if feeling good you could make a dash for the line with 7/8 miles to go ;-)

It's a nice problem to have! My big decision of the day will Guinness or Bulmers:-)

Pacing Mule · 07-10-2014 04:34PM

RedRunner wrote: »

I was thinking that afterwards alright. Sure join the 4:20 train and if feeling good you could make a dash for the line with 7/8 miles to go ;-)

It's a nice problem to have! My big decision of the day will Guinness or Bulmers:-)

Will you be heading into McGrattans anyway ? If so will buy you one of your choice

RedRunner · 07-10-2014 04:49PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Will you be heading into McGrattans anyway ? If so will buy you one of your choice

The plan is to head there alright! It'll be great Craic

Pacing Mule · 07-10-2014 04:56PM

RedRunner wrote: »

The plan is to head there alright! It'll be great Craic

Super ! Am going to head home directly after for a shower then come back in for a few beers myself.

Pacing Mule · 09-10-2014 09:43PM

Taper Time

2.5 weeks out now and the plan enters taper phase.

Took Monday and Tuesday as rest days after the 20 miler on Sunday.

Wednesday
Easy run 4 miles @ 10:18 pace.

Happily the calf and hamstring behaved themselves although at least half a dozen other niggles appeared. :pac:

Thursday
4 miles @ 9:11 pace.

Tonight was the last pace run on the plan. Wasn't all out by any means - felt more like second or third gear but a good bit under MP all the same.

I've a 5 mile easy and a 12 mile LSR due at the weekend. Am probably going to knock out a few MP miles on this 12 miler too.

On the subject of MP - have settled on a 4:20 target. Hoping to be in a position to push on late in the race and come home a bit under but I do think that 4:10 may be pushing it a little bit. I'm treating this as my first proper marathon and will be aiming to enjoy it first with times a secondary concern. That said anything over 4:30 would be a real disappointment. Want to smash the first "effort" by at least an hour.

Chivito550 · 10-10-2014 11:42AM

I'd echo DQ's sentiments. You've trained properly this time, had a far better attitude, and listened to what others said. You deserve a good run. Best of luck.

Pacing Mule · 10-10-2014 08:39PM

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'd echo DQ's sentiments. You've trained properly this time, had a far better attitude, and listened to what others said. You deserve a good run. Best of luck.

Pageant Messiah would have argued that better attitude point

Pacing Mule says thank you. Very much appreciate that.

Pacing Mule · 12-10-2014 02:39PM

12 Miles today at MP 9:58 avg

Yeah - Didn't exactly mean to and I know it's not ideal

Went out aiming for 15/20 seconds per mile slower than MP but the first couple of miles were downhill so aimed for them to be a little faster. Except when I got to the flat and indeed uphills I was quite comfortable so stayed with it all the way through. Dropped it a little for mile 12 as a cooldown mile. Truth be told 11 miles were under target MP skewed by mile 12. Add in I had only 3 hours sleep last night and this was lunacy.

So I deserve a slap on the head - either that or move targets for the big day so todays run was slower than MP

yaboya1 · 12-10-2014 02:42PM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Pageant Messiah would have argued that better attitude point

Pacing Mule says thank you. Very much appreciate that.

Pageant Messiah is still alive on the mentored thread.......but under a different name

Turning a mule into a race horse.

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