Castleknock in receivership now

who_ru · 24-02-2014 04:14PM

pcasso wrote: »

I was told otherwise last week and the website still advertises that credit can be spent in the bar and restaurant

i was told that any remaining card balances are golf only, no pro shop, bar & restaurant. otherwise i would have spent a good bit in the restaurant myself.

i haven't renewed yet, i'll ring on wednesday and try to find out how things are going.

Renno · 24-02-2014 08:05PM

Any new memberships or members renewing post Jan 25 can spend up to 30% of their credit in the bar/restaurant or pro shop

Those who haven't renewed are limited to only being able to spend their credit on golf

pcasso · 25-02-2014 12:16PM

I have been told again just this morning that there are no limits on the amount or where credits are spent in Castleknock

Seve OB · 25-02-2014 02:02PM

thanks guys......so many different answers!!!

i guess i'll just ask them what the craic is when i want to join up next month

uberwolf · 25-02-2014 07:22PM

Renno wrote: »

Any new memberships or members renewing post Jan 25 can spend up to 30% of their credit in the bar/restaurant or pro shop

Those who haven't renewed are limited to only being able to spend their credit on golf

afaik if you renew then upto 30% of your carry over can be used in the bar/shop/restaurant. 100% of your 2014 fee can be used anywhere.

Oilbeefhooked! · 28-02-2014 05:54PM

Just recieved email from club confirming that the 80% membership target has been achieved, securing the future of the club for 2014.
Fantastic support from all the existing and new members, and some sterling work from the lads in the pro shop!! great achievement from all involved

golfwallah · 09-10-2014 08:22AM

Played Castleknock yesterday and even though it rained heavily for 1st nine, I though the course and facilities were top class.

Enjoyed a meal in the restaurant afterwards ("steak on a stone" was absolutely fabulous) and they had quite a few people coming in for meals after 6pm. It was still going strong when I left after 8pm.

As a member in an ordinary member's club though, where "things are tight", I just don't know how they do it - offer such fantastic facilities for such affordable and flexible prices. On the one hand the club is in a fantastic location, course, facilities and prices are great - but, here's the rub - how do they manage to get enough in revenues to run the place at break-even, let alone make a profit?

Talking to a few of their members and people who know members, the flexible membership offering allows for unused golf credits to be spent in either the restaurant, bar or pro-shop. Without knowing the details of member numbers and revenues, this must eat into the revenues needed to run the course, etc.

I have to admit that I like their pricing model as a way to attract people with limited time availability to play golf - but time will tell as to whether such an approach will work as a long term, sustainable business model!

dar_cool · 09-10-2014 08:42AM

Nice picture of castleknock in todays golfer magazine this month and a nice little write up about it and other courses in ireland

GreeBo · 09-10-2014 08:56AM

golfwallah wrote: »

Played Castleknock yesterday and even though it rained heavily for 1st nine, I though the course and facilities were top class.

Enjoyed a meal in the restaurant afterwards ("steak on a stone" was absolutely fabulous) and they had quite a few people coming in for meals after 6pm. It was still going strong when I left after 8pm.

As a member in an ordinary member's club though, where "things are tight", I just don't know how they do it - offer such fantastic facilities for such affordable and flexible prices. On the one hand the club is in a fantastic location, course, facilities and prices are great - but, here's the rub - how do they manage to get enough in revenues to run the place at break-even, let alone make a profit?

Talking to a few of their members and people who know members, the flexible membership offering allows for unused golf credits to be spent in either the restaurant, bar or pro-shop. Without knowing the details of member numbers and revenues, this must eat into the revenues needed to run the course, etc.

I have to admit that I like their pricing model as a way to attract people with limited time availability to play golf - but time will tell as to whether such an approach will work as a long term, sustainable business model!

The bar/restaurant attracts local people who dont have any interest playing golf, that creates a buzz about the place that sadly most clubs are now lacking due to drink driving laws.

Seve OB · 09-10-2014 10:29AM

golfwallah wrote: »

Played Castleknock yesterday and even though it rained heavily for 1st nine, I though the course and facilities were top class.

Enjoyed a meal in the restaurant afterwards ("steak on a stone" was absolutely fabulous) and they had quite a few people coming in for meals after 6pm. It was still going strong when I left after 8pm.

As a member in an ordinary member's club though, where "things are tight", I just don't know how they do it - offer such fantastic facilities for such affordable and flexible prices. On the one hand the club is in a fantastic location, course, facilities and prices are great - but, here's the rub - how do they manage to get enough in revenues to run the place at break-even, let alone make a profit?

Talking to a few of their members and people who know members, the flexible membership offering allows for unused golf credits to be spent in either the restaurant, bar or pro-shop. Without knowing the details of member numbers and revenues, this must eat into the revenues needed to run the course, etc.

I have to admit that I like their pricing model as a way to attract people with limited time availability to play golf - but time will tell as to whether such an approach will work as a long term, sustainable business model!

It's a great course, some good challenges, but it can be a dangerous place. First tee is like a magnet for balls from the second tee, and it is far from the only place. Give it a few years for trees to mature and create natural barriers to bring some safety and make it even harder

The road crossing is just unreal how it got designed like that in the first place I have no idea

The greens could do with a bit of TLC. They are great greens, but my god, it's the worst place for people not repairing pitch marks. New signage is in and will hopefully make a little difference, but I guess with a model that facilitates cheap golf, it brings in an uneducated element, who are just ignorant about the likes of the pitch marks, divots etc. A few quid extra spent here and maybe the bunkers is really all that is required and apart from that I think the place gets well maintained. Little squishy underfoot the otherday, but we had a lot of rain. Drainage is usually pretty good.

GreeBo wrote: »

The bar/restaurant attracts local people who dont have any interest playing golf, that creates a buzz about the place that sadly most clubs are now lacking due to drink driving laws.

The credits scheme is how I decided to become a member. We live local but my home club is miles away, however we go over as a family to Castleknock GC a good few times a year just to use the restaurant. I figured on the credits membership, it would get me over for a few more games than I would normally play there and use the facilities a bit more. I couldn't loose!

So to answer your question Golfwallah, the credits is a scheme that has gotten me to pump more money into the place and play more golf than I normally would have. It's been going a good few years now, and it's working very well. Surprised it hasn't caught on elsewhere.

The bar/restaurant is open to the public, and is always hopping! The food is top drawer and I would recommend anyone to pay a visit. Special Friday and Saturday is 4 course dinner for 2 with bottle of wine for €60...can't go wrong there. It is the envy of the whole estate, Hotel looses a lot of business to the golf club, we never go near that place. If I told you what the turnover for the first 5 days of October was, you would easily understand how it turns profits.

Ollieboy · 09-10-2014 12:05PM

The road on the 10th hole and even the layout of the 10th hole does so much damage to the course. I totally agree with the comment referring to the 1st tee box being a magnet for balls from 2nd tee box. But I did enjoy the course but I don't think it offers good value for full membership which is what I'm after.

The cheap golf won't last forever and most golf clubs at the moment are seeing a small increase in membership if price correctly. The only problem for Castleknock is the amount good clubs in the area.

If money was no issue, Carton House would be my prefer destination in that area.

As for someone buying the club they would be hoping to increase it's value in the next couple of years and sell it on. Just makes perfect business sense, so I would expect things to get better instead of worse for the members. It's having the cash to buy it.

PARlance · 09-10-2014 02:24PM

Find the place very interesting, thinks it's a model for survival/future of golf clubs and the guys running it seem to be very clued in.

The course itself, I always enjoy but feel like I enjoy it more than I should... If that makes any sense.

Quite a few danger areas, 1st, the 6th fairway (balls coming right off the fourth tee) and a few more. A few major design problems too, the road as mentioned but also the fact that the best line down the index 1 14th is the 13th fairway... The 17th can be played down the 16th for safety and 8th down the 17th iirc.

But saying that there are some great highlights too. The par 3's probably make it an exciting round. They're dotted nicely around the course and there's always a buzz when you're carrying over water imo. Some fun par 4's too, the 1st and 5th can be driven for big hitters. The condition is always class too and there's a nice flow to the place.

In terms of it's future prospects, I think it's one of the best examples out there of a course that will prosper.
The design is cost friendly... Tight, but this cuts down costs. They also didn't go crazy with bunkers which helps a lot.

The management team also seem very clued into the demands of the modern golfer.
Their marketing & pricing strategy deserves an award! I've heard cheap golf mentioned a few times but their opens are €30 which is a premium rate when you have similar/better courses for €15-20. Open days are usually packed with 4 balls too. Wouldn't be surprised to see them bring in about in €5,000 every Tuesday for their opens!
The €600 credit thing is marketing genius imo, not 100% but think each round is €20-25 credits for a full member? That's not cheap per say but it's sold brilliantly.
I would guess that the reality is that they're getting a lot of top ups and wouldn't be surprised to see most members spending closer to €1,000 than €600. That would bring it in line with the Castlewardens, Naas and I'm sure a few more.

Add to that a thriving restaurant that has somehow managed to engage golfers and the local community.

I find the place very interesting and it's great to see a course & management making it work.

John Divney · 09-10-2014 03:05PM

Aye, the credit system appears cheap but you would get very little golf out of it.

I know clubs don't want to lose members paying full fees but surely a credit system that allows topping up and not great priviledges for new players is the best way to grow the game.

It may get far more quarterly revenue with little stress to the time sheet, and more players who think the game is theirs and engage in it , rather than just wanting to play the odd round with friends but still feel intimidated by the game.

First Up · 09-10-2014 03:15PM

PARlance wrote: »

Find the place very interesting, thinks it's a model for survival/future of golf clubs and the guys running it seem to be very clued in.

The course itself, I always enjoy but feel like I enjoy it more than I should... If that makes any sense.

Quite a few danger areas, 1st, the 6th fairway (balls coming right off the fourth tee) and a few more. A few major design problems too, the road as mentioned but also the fact that the best line down the index 1 14th is the 13th fairway... The 17th can be played down the 16th for safety and 8th down the 17th iirc.

But saying that there are some great highlights too. The par 3's probably make it an exciting round. They're dotted nicely around the course and there's always a buzz when you're carrying over water imo. Some fun par 4's too, the 1st and 5th can be driven for big hitters. The condition is always class too and there's a nice flow to the place.

In terms of it's future prospects, I think it's one of the best examples out there of a course that will prosper.
The design is cost friendly... Tight, but this cuts down costs. They also didn't go crazy with bunkers which helps a lot.

The management team also seem very clued into the demands of the modern golfer.
Their marketing & pricing strategy deserves an award! I've heard cheap golf mentioned a few times but their opens are €30 which is a premium rate when you have similar/better courses for €15-20. Open days are usually packed with 4 balls too. Wouldn't be surprised to see them bring in about in €5,000 every Tuesday for their opens!
The €600 credit thing is marketing genius imo, not 100% but think each round is €20-25 credits for a full member? That's not cheap per say but it's sold brilliantly.
I would guess that the reality is that they're getting a lot of top ups and wouldn't be surprised to see most members spending closer to €1,000 than €600. That would bring it in line with the Castlewardens, Naas and I'm sure a few more.

Add to that a thriving restaurant that has somehow managed to engage golfers and the local community.

I find the place very interesting and it's great to see a course & management making it work.

Other than the being in receivership bit presumably. I wish it well and hope they survive and prosper, but such praise for their membership/business model might be mis-placed - or at least premature.

John Divney · 09-10-2014 03:25PM

First Up wrote: »

Other than the being in receivership bit presumably. I wish it well and hope they survive and prosper, but such praise for their membership/business model might be mis-placed - or at least premature.

Well, as a model other courses can take the good as an example, minus the get into debt part.

If it survives and thrives then it really should be studied.

First Up · 09-10-2014 03:49PM

John Divney wrote: »

Well, as a model other courses can take the good as an example, minus the get into debt part.

If it survives and thrives then it really should be studied.

Sure, but you have to pay attention to the bottom line. It's all very well congratulating clubs for offering "affordable" memberships but if the income doesn't match expenditure, it won't last.

Seve OB · 09-10-2014 03:57PM

First Up wrote: »

Other than the being in receivership bit presumably. I wish it well and hope they survive and prosper, but such praise for their membership/business model might be mis-placed - or at least premature.

John Divney wrote: »

Well, as a model other courses can take the good as an example, minus the get into debt part.

If it survives and thrives then it really should be studied.

First Up wrote: »

Sure, but you have to pay attention to the bottom line. It's all very well congratulating clubs for offering "affordable" memberships but if the income doesn't match expenditure, it won't last.

I think you guys are confused. It is a profit making business. The owner got into financial difficulties in other businesses and the banks had a lean on this place, that it why it got sold.

Of course, I stand to be corrected, but that is what I'm led to believe.

First Up · 09-10-2014 04:02PM

Seve OB wrote: »

I think you guys are confused. It is a profit making business. The owner got into financial difficulties in other businesses and the banks had a lean on this place, that it why it got sold.

Of course, I stand to be corrected, but that is what I'm led to believe.

Not according to the article attached to the OP.

PARlance · 09-10-2014 04:16PM

First Up wrote: »

Other than the being in receivership bit presumably. I wish it well and hope they survive and prosper, but such praise for their membership/business model might be mis-placed - or at least premature.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that, only speculation but there may have been drawings (expenditure) taken out of the golf course that may not have ordinarily been taken out of courses.
All perfectly legit but directors fees etc may have been accounted for in the golf courses accounts.

From what I've heard the course, itself in isolation, had been performing fairly well even before receivership. It was part of a group and it's hard to know really.

Seve OB · 09-10-2014 04:26PM

/\ /\ /\ that

First Up wrote: »

Not according to the article attached to the OP.

Just clicked the link.

Interesting that the photo shows Hermitage

PARlance · 09-10-2014 04:27PM

First Up wrote: »

Not according to the article attached to the OP.

Financial statements (the accounts lodged with the CRO) that are referenced in the article can fail to tell the majority of the story.

I've lodged my fair share and while they can(should) never be misleading they can often fail to give all the detail required to make a proper judgement for anyone on the outside.

I've seen very healthy companies that show year on year loses and struggling companies that post small profits.

From the article
"A deficit of €3.7 million was also listed under “extraordinary items”.
This is the kind of level of detail annual accounts go into. What that 3.7m is related to could be anyone's (outside Monarch properties group) guess. Hence why the journalist adds absolutely nothing to explain it.

John Divney · 09-10-2014 04:29PM

It didn't make a profit for the last few years did it though, talking by over 100k a year loss.

The parent group probably had a lot to do with that late on incurring the large debt, but the setup as it was was probably a huge factor aswell.

Now if the new model thrives the setup should be looked at as a success story and replicated.

First Up · 09-10-2014 04:31PM

Seve OB wrote: »

/\ /\ /\ that

Just clicked the link.

Interesting that the photo shows Hermitage

It does? Looks awful like the Par 3 third in Castlenock to me.

Seve OB · 09-10-2014 04:33PM

John Divney wrote: »

It didn't make a profit for the last few years did it though, talking by over 100k a year loss.

The parent group probably had a lot to do with that late on incurring the large debt, but the setup as it was was probably a huge factor aswell.

Now if the new model thrives the setup should be looked at as a success story and replicated.

It's not a new model. It's being going for at least 4 years now. Just into the place, any day of the week. Thriving is not the word.

First Up · 09-10-2014 04:33PM

PARlance wrote: »

Financial statements (the accounts lodged with the CRO) that are referenced in the article can fail to tell the majority of the story.

I've lodged my fair share and while they can(should) never be misleading they can often fail to give all the detail required to make a proper judgement for anyone on the outside.

I've seen very healthy companies that show year on year loses and struggling companies that post small profits.

From the article
"A deficit of €3.7 million was also listed under “extraordinary items”.
This is the kind of level of detail annual accounts go into. What that 3.7m is related to could be anyone's (outside Monarch properties group) guess. Hence why the journalist adds absolutely nothing to explain it.

True, but that deficit was in addition to losses attributed to the golf club.

Seve OB · 09-10-2014 04:33PM

First Up wrote: »

It does? Looks awful like the Par 3 third in Castlenock to me.

Third hole Castleknock, Hermitage Clubhouse behind it.

PARlance · 09-10-2014 04:38PM

First Up wrote: »

True, but that deficit was in addition to losses attributed to the golf club.

Didn't mean to suggest it wasn't. It was just lending to the point that financial statements offer very little of the real story. And the financial statements of a group company can be even more useless.

Seve OB · 09-10-2014 04:39PM

First Up wrote: »

True, but that deficit was in addition to losses attributed to the golf club.

My guess, without even looking at accounts, is that loss was probably something to do with a re-valuation and probably not a real loss. Did somethig similar recently, and it just blows accounts out of all proportion.

The loss per accounts should have included the extraordinary item.

point is, especially when you have group accounts, and moving things bewteen each other etc, unless you actually produced the accounts yourself, you can be easily misled, and they might be factual, but won't show the real picture.

PARlance is making lots of sense above.

First Up · 09-10-2014 04:46PM

Seve OB wrote: »

My guess, without even looking at accounts, is that loss was probably something to do with a re-valuation and probably not a real loss. Did somethig similar recently, and it just blows accounts out of all proportion.

The loss per accounts should have included the extraordinary item.

point is, especially when you have group accounts, and moving things bewteen each other etc, unless you actually produced the accounts yourself, you can be easily misled, and they might be factual, but won't show the real picture.

PARlance is making lots of sense above.

Yes, but fact is the golf club and only the golf club went into receivership and only the golf club is for sale. I'm aware that group accounts can be hard to dissect but it was and is effectively operating as a stand alone business.

First Up · 09-10-2014 04:49PM

Seve OB wrote: »

It's not a new model. It's being going for at least 4 years now. Just into the place, any day of the week. Thriving is not the word.

By that I assume you mean it is busy. Any time I was there over the years it was busy.

Is that necessarily the same as thriving?

Castleknock in receivership now

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