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The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

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Comments

  • #1052
    gizmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Read their version of events and the response they got. The links are in this thread.
    I have read their version of events . Here's the initial post on Reddit which kicked the whole thing off. There are, quite obviously if you look at what actually happened, a number of inconsistencies with their claims.

    She did not doxx them.
    She did not "ruin" their production nor, by any reasonable definition of the word, attempt to ruin it.
    She probably did refuse to contact them after they stopped answering her questions when she asked.
    She did not claim their general idea was oppressive.
    Whether or not she started a "twitter storm" is entirely subjective.
    She did not "crash their website" unless you want to claim that pushing large amounts of traffic to it is a bad thing.
    She did not get his personal information doxxed either, someone else did it but not at her behest.
    I have no idea about the Twitter banning.

    They repeated some of the above claims in an interview here. They also accuse her of being responsible for ending Game_Jam which, if you're aware of that complete cluster****, is completely untrue.

    As for the follow up articles on their site, I've only read a handful including their Peace Treaty, which corrected some of the above inaccuracies but which they've subsequently taken down and replaced with this article, On Apologizing for Getting Punched in The Face and one entitled A response to “Social Justice Viv” which I commented upon in this post.

    As a general point, I prefer to look at the actual chain of events in these cases rather than any one persons or "sides" version. Given the amount of nonsense that's been posted by people at both ends of the spectrum during this campaign I've found it to be the only reliable way of finding out whats actually being going on.


  • #1053
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Slot Machine wrote: »
    It's not always "painting their enemies" because many on the other side are crazy SJWs. In my opinion.
    Whereas I'd contend that the entire concept of a SWJ is at worst an invented strawman and at best nothing more than a slur.

    The idea that the internet is crawling with social change activists who are actively looking to shut down your conversations is just silly. Certainly, no one has ever described themselves as what is fundamentally a pejorative term. It's like the internet woke up one day and suddenly decided that it wanted
    a new insult for those who suggested that maybe it would be nice to have some more diversity in computer games. Burn the witch!

    So do some people go too far in assuming that their patterns of conversation are universal? No doubt. Does it give you licence to dismiss an entire spectrum of thought as 'SJWs'. Apparently it does.

    Not everyone has to agree with feminist (or other) critiques. But to demonise these as 'extremist' and 'crazy' 'SJWs' is just name-calling.
    Do I have to repeat myself in saying I like them covering social issues? Because I did actually say that.
    And I refrained from saying 'So long as they tally with your own perspective'. Because when they don't then they're apparently starting to 'mirror that of SJWs' and should be ignored. See above. Seriously, you'd think that RPS and the like had turned into extreme feminist websites, the way some people talk.

    Obviously you'll have trouble finding a 'third choice' of media (particularly sites that cover social issues, but not social justice) if you've automatically ruled out half the internet and most of the 'mainstream' gaming press.
    And really, must I qualify everything I say with "this is only my opinion"?
    Not really, no. I didn't assume that you were quoting from some authority or had detailed sources to hand. Of course it's your opinion. I just happen to disagree with quite a lot of it.


  • #1054
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Reekwind wrote: »
    Whereas I'd contend that the entire concept of a SWJ is at worst an invented strawman and at best nothing more than a slur.

    The idea that the internet is crawling with social change activists who are actively looking to shut down your conversations is just silly. Certainly, no one has ever described themselves as what is fundamentally a pejorative term. It's like the internet woke up one day and suddenly decided that it wanted a new insult for those who suggested that maybe it would be nice to have some more diversity in computer games. Burn the witch!

    Tbf, it's not confined to gaming and there are people out there that seem to spend their time on the likes of Twitter being outraged. Check out the nonsense around the 'CancelColbert' hashtag.

    That said there seems to be a bit of overplaying of the size of the 'SJW' crowd with lots of moderate people being lumped in with them, just as there has been an overplaying of how many gamers are rape threat posting misogynists and guilt by association for others who do not take part in practices like that.


  • #1055
    richymcdermott
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    Why is Anita nominated for gaming personal of the year ?
    what has she exactly benefited to the industry than false claims , biased opinions and to belittle everyone else just to gain more ranks to the top.


  • #1056
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,769 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    gizmo wrote: »
    I have read their version of events . Here's the initial post on Reddit which kicked the whole thing off. There are, quite obviously if you look at what actually happened, a number of inconsistencies with their claims.

    She did not doxx them.
    She did not "ruin" their production nor, by any reasonable definition of the word, attempt to ruin it.
    She probably did refuse to contact them after they stopped answering her questions when she asked.
    She did not claim their general idea was oppressive.
    Whether or not she started a "twitter storm" is entirely subjective.
    She did not "crash their website" unless you want to claim that pushing large amounts of traffic to it is a bad thing.
    She did not get his personal information doxxed either, someone else did it but not at her behest.
    I have no idea about the Twitter banning.

    They repeated some of the above claims in an interview here. They also accuse her of being responsible for ending Game_Jam which, if you're aware of that complete cluster****, is completely untrue.

    As for the follow up articles on their site, I've only read a handful including their Peace Treaty, which corrected some of the above inaccuracies but which they've subsequently taken down and replaced with this article, On Apologizing for Getting Punched in The Face and one entitled A response to “Social Justice Viv” which I commented upon in this post.

    As a general point, I prefer to look at the actual chain of events in these cases rather than any one persons or "sides" version. Given the amount of nonsense that's been posted by people at both ends of the spectrum during this campaign I've found it to be the only reliable way of finding out whats actually being going on.

    Some of their points are off topic to say the least but she started a negative campaign against them and her PR manager doxxing them does reflect on her. I dont believe they accused her but the fact its her PR manager did it is pretty crappy.


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  • #1057
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    richymcdermott wrote: »
    Why is Anita nominated for gaming personal of the year ?
    what has she exactly benefited to the industry than false claims , biased opinions and to belittle everyone else just to gain more ranks to the top.

    :confused: Is English a second language for you? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying… is there something you could link us to?


  • #1058
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    richymcdermott wrote: »
    Why is Anita nominated for gaming personal of the year ?
    what has she exactly benefited to the industry than false claims , biased opinions and to belittle everyone else just to gain more ranks to the top.

    It's a pretty ****e list to be fair.

    Edit: Most of the lists this year are pretty bad. Nidhogg being up for Best Original Game for making "the biggest impact on gamers over the past twelve months." Eh, what? It's a cute game but it's pretty much unknown compared to a lot of the other games there.


  • #1059
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    :confused: Is English a second language for you? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying… is there something you could link us to?

    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/joystick/category.php?id=personality


  • #1060
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    nesf wrote: »
    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/joystick/category.php?id=personality

    Another meaningless popularity contest.


  • #1061
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    nesf wrote: »
    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/joystick/category.php?id=personality

    Ah right… I'd vote for Charlie Brooker, not really for gaming, but just because he's the shiznit. Honestly, not clued in enough to know any of the rest of them beside Anita.


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  • #1062
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Ah right… I'd vote for Charlie Brooker, not really for gaming, but just because he's the shiznit. Honestly, not clued in enough to know any of the rest of them beside Anita.

    How can you not know/hate pewdiepie?


  • #1063
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    nesf wrote: »
    How can you not know/hate pewdiepie?

    I don't know… because I lead an empty and unfulfilling life?

    The only foreign person I watch on youtube is Flula:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDCjPZ-6J7s


  • #1064
    richymcdermott
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    :confused: Is English a second language for you? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying… is there something you could link us to?

    What exactly was too hard to understand Nugget ?


  • #1065
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    richymcdermott wrote: »
    What exactly was too hard to comprehend Nugget ?

    I honestly didn't know what a gaming personal was or what you meant by 'gain more ranks to the top'.


  • #1066
    Timmyctc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    nesf wrote: »
    How can you not know/hate pewdiepie?
    pewdiepie is a loud obnoxious annoying asshat.


  • #1067
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Aisha Taylor cause she's in Archer :P
    Also all of Anitas pictures make her look like a "little miss sneering condescending look" :pac:


  • #1068
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I don't know… because I lead an empty and unfulfilling life?

    More that he's that annoying guy who made it big on Youtube with something game related that you have to hear about even when reading the broadsheets. You're lucky if you've avoided the hype and coverage, he is one of the most annoying big Youtubers.


  • #1069
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    pewdiepie is a loud obnoxious annoying asshat.

    But..... he helped raise a million in charity, whereas Anita makes almost 1/5 that just being primarily incorrect

    I'd rather good, decent, obnoxious people who raise money for causes any day! :p


  • #1070
    Timmyctc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    Cormac... wrote: »
    But..... he helped raise a million in charity, whereas Anita makes almost 1/5 that just being primarily incorrect

    I'd rather good, decent, obnoxious people who raise money for causes any day! :p
    this is true and i applaud him for that
    raises missions for charity too and i still hate him haha


  • #1071
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    nesf wrote: »
    More that he's that annoying guy who made it big on Youtube with something game related that you have to hear about even when reading the broadsheets. You're lucky if you've avoided the hype and coverage, he is one of the most annoying big Youtubers.

    Truthfully, I've been blissfully unaware of him until now and I plan on not getting any more closely acquainted to him based on what's just been said.


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  • #1072
    Slot Machine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Slot Machine


    Reekwind wrote: »
    Whereas I'd contend that the entire concept of a SWJ is at worst an invented strawman and at best nothing more than a slur.

    The idea that the internet is crawling with social change activists who are actively looking to shut down your conversations is just silly. Certainly, no one has ever described themselves as what is fundamentally a pejorative term.

    What's with all the "your"? Why are you so insistent in personalising this? And especially in a way that paints me as a critic of social activism, rather than social justice warriors.
    It's like the internet woke up one day and suddenly decided that it wanted
    a new insult for those who suggested that maybe it would be nice to have some more diversity in computer games. Burn the witch!

    From what I've seen it's mostly used as a pejorative towards the extremist elements in social activism.

    Are there regular people caught up in it? Absolutely. Are there extremists from the other side who call everyone an SJW? Absolutely. Do those two facts negate the existence of extremists? Absolutely not.

    I don't appreciate, because of my politics, being lumped in with SJWs. I'm annoyed at the people on the opposite side who shout "SJW" at every turnabout but I'm more annoyed at the people who claim moral superiority while behaving awfully.
    So do some people go too far in assuming that their patterns of conversation are universal? No doubt. Does it give you licence to dismiss an entire spectrum of thought as 'SJWs'. Apparently it does.

    Except I'm not dismissing an "entire" spectrum of thought. SJWs, as I'm using the term, refer to a very narrow, very loud and obnoxious brand of social activist who's more interested in their own sanctimony than in actually improving anything.

    You seem insistent that I'm one of these people who sees everyone they disagree with as an SJW. I don't. As I said above I just don't like how they're tarnishing the name of social activism and I believe they should be called up on that behaviour.
    Not everyone has to agree with feminist (or other) critiques. But to demonise these as 'extremist' and 'crazy' 'SJWs' is just name-calling.

    Good thing I'm not doing that, then.
    And I refrained from saying 'So long as they tally with your own perspective'. Because when they don't then they're apparently starting to 'mirror that of SJWs' and should be ignored. See above. Seriously, you'd think that RPS and the like had turned into extreme feminist websites, the way some people talk.

    I know. I read the comments. And while I disagree with the people petulantly whining about it, I also happen to think there's a happy middle ground between the polar opposites where people can discuss issues instead of being patronisingly lectured (as RPS increasingly does).

    If you don't agree, that's fine. I'd just appreciate if you'd stop trying to twist what I'm saying.
    Obviously you'll have trouble finding a 'third choice' of media (particularly sites that cover social issues, but not social justice) if you've automatically ruled out half the internet and most of the 'mainstream' gaming press.

    To which I give a resounding "meh". When I want to read up on social activism there are plenty of sites where I can do so. I may not post in it much but I enjoy reading the LGBT forum on Boards, for example.

    But given the demographics in gaming I don't expect there to be any kind of reasoned examination of social activism for a while yet.


  • #1073
    gizmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Some of their points are off topic to say the least but she started a negative campaign against them and her PR manager doxxing them does reflect on her. I dont believe they accused her but the fact its her PR manager did it is pretty crappy.
    Their points weren't just off topic, they varied between factually incorrect and grossly hyperbolic. I still have to disagree with the idea that she started a negative campaign against them though. She didn't like the idea of what they were trying to do, she engaged with them on Twitter, got some answers, they stopped replying and she was still left with her original negative opinions. There was no concerted effort to take them down, she just advocated a different approach to aiding female developers if that was ones intention. Personally I don't see a reason why both methods can't exist but that's just my take on it.

    On the subject of the doxxing, I need to make a correction to what I said earlier. Her PR manager/friend didn't post his details to her Facebook page, rather it appears she retweeted a post by this guy during her conversation with Quinn on the subject. Said tweet, I assume, contained an image of his Facebook page. Pretty sure this is it given the reply from the gentleman from TFYC. Thankfully the image has been removed since. While it doesn't change the fact that that kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable regardless of who did it, I just wanted to point it out for the sake of posterity. That being said, given the nature of how the details were released, I don't think it adds credence to the notion that it was part of some organised campaign against them.


    As for the Gaming Personality of the Year award, Rami Ismail should walk that. Aside from his job at Vlambeer, his work on presskit() and distribute() have been invaluable to indie devs, his talks that I've seen have been great, his blog highlights interesting games he comes across on his travels and he frequently engages with people via ask.fm and Twitter, offering not only insight into the indie development scene but also advice and encouragement to devs whether they're aspiring or more established. Based on the stated criteria of stepping "beyond the curtain to engage with their audience" I think the other nominees pale in comparison.


  • #1074
    richymcdermott
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I honestly didn't know what a gaming personal was or what you meant by 'gain more ranks to the top'.

    but that had nothing to do with my english, you had me going over what I wrote 5 times :L


  • #1075
    BMMachine
    Site Banned Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭BMMachine


    well then...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0


  • #1076
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BMMachine wrote: »
    well then...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

    Thats messed up. Sadly there are a lot of unhinged people out there. Hopefully the police arrest the person involved.

    Sadly it seem that some people are just **** heads, we now have a Gawker writer saying people should be bullied:

    B0GbVZLCYAEIh-F.png

    Some people have been saying that gamergate is toxic and I agree, but I would disagree in that elements of both sides have made the whole thing toxic, and not just the one. You have death threats and doxxing flying around at people, and the whole thing is just getting stupider and stupider. Wouldn't surprise if some of the same trolls were responsible for threats etc made to people on both sides of this mess.


  • #1077
    K.O.Kiki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    BMMachine wrote: »
    well then...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
    You see a possible mass murder event.

    I see a bored person who got the attention s/he craved by sending an anonymous email with threats.

    Don't feed the trolls.


  • #1078
    BMMachine
    Site Banned Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭BMMachine


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    You see a possible mass murder event.

    I see a bored person who got the attention s/he craved by sending an anonymous email with threats.

    Don't feed the trolls.

    agreed. but seems police and the like don't agree.


  • #1079
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    You see a possible mass murder event.

    I see a bored person who got the attention s/he craved by sending an anonymous email with threats.

    Don't feed the trolls.

    Under other circumstances I would agree, but death threats are a criminal matter, and the person who made the threats, if found should be punished to the full extent of the law. This kind of crap needs to stop, and imho the people making such threats need to go to prison.


  • #1080
    K.O.Kiki
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,003 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    BMMachine wrote: »
    agreed. but seems police and the like don't agree.
    All the (campus) police said was that they can't bar a gun carrier from entering.

    I think that speaks more about America than gamers.


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  • #1081
    DeVore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Boards HQ (and I personally) have been threatened with everything from a kicking to a shotgun. I've even had someone turn up on my doorstep (thankfully with only a home-made legal letter).

    I went to the guards, not the guardian.


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