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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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  • #1682
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hold that Nobel! A blonde reality-TV star says that evolution is false and caused the Holocaust!

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/reality-tv-star-jessa-duggar-blames-the-holocaust-on-the-theory-of-evolution/


  • #1683
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    I do not see how: we find fossils of plants and animals which have features that make them especially suitable for specific weather conditions, such as extreme cold, heat, temperate conditions, wet climates, dry ones. We find them in discrete layers, a phenomenon which we still have not explained: if they all co-existed, you would expect to find them all mixed up.
    These animals and plants have these features today ... after natural selection has selected these characteristics ... none of which can be assessed from their fossils.
    Vivisectus wrote: »
    In temperate climes, extreme weather features are more of a handicap: arctic hares that turn bright white in the winter do not do well in the Mediterranean, for instance. And cold-weather conifers cannot compete with tropical hardwoods at the equator... nor can they germinate, incidentally, as they need seasons to do so. These are just a few examples: the list goes on and on.
    The fossil of an Arctic Hare would look just like any other Hare ... so you are speculating about things that you don't have evidence for whilst making assumptions that present conditions existed before and during the Flood
    Vivisectus wrote: »
    And yet we find fossils of such conifers at the equator, the remains of ancient deserts in Ireland, as well as the remains of tropical forests.

    That has nothing to do with classification. That has to do with the fact that we need to explain how, if all these animals and plants existed at the same time, they managed to do so. Even if you planted them all there fully grown I cannot imagine the work it would take to keep them all alive for more than a year or two.
    They weren't like the obligate creatures we now observe due to selection and speciation ... and neither was the global atmosphere and climate the same as we see today ... and that is why we find the fossilised remains of ancient deserts and species now found in the tropics in Ireland.
    Vivisectus wrote: »
    This explanation requires special circumstances: you need magic to make it work.
    No magic ... just a radically different pre-flood world.


  • #1684
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    The fossil of an Arctic Hare would look just like any other Hare ... so you are speculating about things that you don't have evidence for whilst making assumptions that present conditions existed before and during the Flood

    The hare is just an example of how features that allow an animal to thrive in extreme cold conditions are a handicap in even temperate conditions... which is why you do not find arctic foxes and polar bears in temperate zones today, just to name another example.

    Nor am I speaking of just one fossil or animal: I am speaking of a discrete fossilization layer which features just animals and plants which we would normally find in sub-arctic conditions... which is what we can actually see. We find musk-ox, woolly rhino, woolly mammoth, dire wolf together with slow-growing conifers and almost no deciduous trees at all, together with fossilized pollen from tough sub-arctic grasses.

    In the same geographical area, we also find a riverbank that had hippos in it, cheetahs, lions, hyenas, and a mix of trees and shrubs you would expect in a much hotter climate.

    What we do NOT find is hippos and musk-ox together.

    Your explanation is that

    a) these were special animals
    b) that lived in special weather
    c) and were deposited in discreet layers because of special circumstances.

    You have not actually explained c) yet, but I am sure that will follow.
    They weren't like the obligate creatures we now observe due to selection and speciation ... and neither was the global atmosphere and climate the same as we see today ... and that is why we find the fossilised remains of ancient deserts and species now found in the tropics in Ireland.

    Oh I see! They were temperate deserts which at the same time supported tropical hardwoods? Were these dry-weather hardwoods? Or was it a particularly wet desert?

    That must have been some amazing special weather, and those must have been amazing special plants.

    No magic ... just a radically different pre-flood world.[/QUOTE]

    Actually, you have proposed magical weather and magical plants... weather and plants that do not follow the laws of nature.


  • #1685
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    robindch wrote: »
    Hold that Nobel! A blonde reality-TV star says that evolution is false and caused the Holocaust!

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/reality-tv-star-jessa-duggar-blames-the-holocaust-on-the-theory-of-evolution/
    the bible wrote:
    7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

    13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

    15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Genocide is only cool if God tells you to do so.


  • #1686
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    J C wrote: »
    These animals and plants have these features today ... after natural selection has selected these characteristics ... none of which can be assessed from their fossils.

    Teeth, J C, teeth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgybr7BWY-w


    those many layers of sharp teeth, and examples of tooth damage on other fossils are just lies, before the flood sharks were herbivores... and lived in a pond in Eden.


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  • #1687
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    kiffer wrote: »
    Teeth, J C, teeth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgybr7BWY-w


    those many layers of sharp teeth, and examples of tooth damage on other fossils are just lies, before the flood sharks were herbivores... and lived in a pond in Eden.

    I think some of the plant life was quite tough. Was that not the reason given for the t-rex having vicious teeth when it was supposedly a vegetarian in Eden? Maybe the seaweed the Sharks fed on was really rubbery...

    MrP


  • #1688
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I think some of the plant life was quite tough. Was that not the reason given for the t-rex having vicious teeth when it was supposedly a vegetarian in Eden? Maybe the seaweed the Sharks fed on was really rubbery...

    MrP
    Got it in one, Mr P.:)

    Carnivorous behaviour happened after the Fall i.e. many many years before the fossilization events in the Flood.


  • #1689
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Genocide is only cool if God tells you to do so.
    Genocide is never 'cool' ... and Moses was a very very bad guy indeed.

    These verses go to show that the people who should know best ... are often those who behave worst.


  • #1690
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Genocide is never 'cool' ... and Moses was a very very bad guy indeed.

    These verses go to show that the people who should know best ... are often those who behave worst.

    Would that not also make God bad for the global genocide that was a result of the flood?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1691
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    JC wrote:
    Carnivorous behavior did not start until after the fall

    So there was a time when spiders where herbivores? What about vipers? Did they need venom to immobilize and kill particularly recalcitrant plants? Did the sabre-toothed tiger stalk bellicose cabbages with those massive fangs, together with herds of vegetarian velociraptors?

    And then something re-wired all these animals brains to include hunting instincts, where before they had none, in a sudden event?

    That is a pretty extreme claim, the latest one in a string of there. Is there some extraordinary evidence to back it up?


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  • #1692
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,246 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    And then something re-wired all these animals brains to include hunting instincts, where before they had none, in a sudden event?

    That is a pretty extreme claim, the latest one in a string of there. Is there some extraordinary evidence to back it up?

    It's probably in AnswersInGenesis, the scientific reference website for the scientifically illiterate.


  • #1693
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,810 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    SW wrote: »
    Would that not also make God bad for the global genocide that was a result of the flood?

    But... but... god is just and loves you <insert exclamation marks and smiley face>


  • #1694
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    No its a fair enough point: God merely instructed Moses to start a war, not to go the whole hog and commit genocide and slavery.

    That is what seems to be happening here though (joshua10):
    So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.


  • #1695
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    And then something re-wired all these animals brains to include hunting instincts, where before they had none, in a sudden event?
    Not a big thing - they just had to rewire themselves to cope with what are effectively plants that can run away very quickly.

    Creationism 101.


  • #1696
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Would that not also make God bad for the global genocide that was a result of the flood?
    Not when the people of the world had all become irredeemably evil ... and their every though was evil.


  • #1697
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    Not when the people of the world had all become irredeemably evil ... and their every though was evil.

    You have not answered http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92454579&postcount=1742


    Or explained why God orders massacres http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92456758&postcount=1745

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92440163&postcount=1736


    And what about the marsupials? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92409052&postcount=1716

    You have a fascinating type of 'science', faced with questions you cannot answer you just stick your fingers in your ears and chant 'nasty questions go away, nasty questions go away'.


  • #1698
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    So there was a time when spiders where herbivores? What about vipers? Did they need venom to immobilize and kill particularly recalcitrant plants? Did the sabre-toothed tiger stalk bellicose cabbages with those massive fangs, together with herds of vegetarian velociraptors?

    And then something re-wired all these animals brains to include hunting instincts, where before they had none, in a sudden event?
    The Fall 're-wired' many things ... by introducing death and disease ... it would undoubtedly have had significant effects on the usage to which previously innocuous structures were now put to.
    Venom, for example could have been used to digest plant material before the fall ... and then was used to kill other animals afterwards.
    Similarly, sharp teeth are no burden when it comes to eating plants ... and the sabre-toothed tiger's teeth seem to have become a bit of a liability when the switch occurred from rooting out plant bulbs ... to trying to kill animals.


  • #1699
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    The Fall 're-wired' many things ... by introducing death and disease ... it would undoubtedly have had significant effects on the usage to which previously innocuous structures were now put to.
    Venom, for example could have been used to digest plant material before the fall ... and then was used to kill other animals afterwards.
    Similarly, sharp teeth are no burden when it comes to eating plants ... and the sabre-toothed tiger's teeth seem to have become a bit of a liability when the switch from rooting out plant bulbs to trying kill animals occurred.

    Any evidence that venom does this?

    In what way were the sabre-toothed tiger's teeth a liability?


  • #1700
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    obplayer wrote: »
    Any evidence that venom does this?
    Venom is a complex mixture of various cell poisons that act by affecting the working of the cells and in many cases breaking down the cell structures.
    obplayer wrote: »
    In what way were the sabre-toothed tiger's teeth a liability?
    They were completely overshot.:)
    ... and only useful for scratching their backs ... and rooting out plant bulbs.


  • #1701
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Genocide is only cool if God tells you to do so.
    see my answer here
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92451151&postcount=1740


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  • #1702
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    obplayer wrote: »
    Where are the remains of the marsupials who must have made the trek from the Mediterranean area to Australia? Why are they only found in Australia? And if it is because they were so few from the ark how did those few survive that enormous trek?. Koala bears only eat from plants indigenous to Australia, mostly eucalyptus leaves.
    'There are well over 600 varieties of eucalypts. Koalas eat only some of these. They are very fussy eaters and have strong preferences for different types of gum leaves. Within a particular area, as few as one, and generally no more than two or three species of eucalypt will be regularly browsed (we call these 'primary browse trees') while a variety of other species, including some non-eucalypts, appear to be browsed occasionally or used for just sitting or sleeping in.'
    https://www.savethekoala.com/about-koalas/interesting-facts

    How did they survive the trek?
    It probably took them hundreds of years to reach Australia ... where they were cut off from natural predators by rising seas. Please also note that marsupials aren't confined to Australia ... they're also found in the Americas.


  • #1703
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    It probably took them hundreds of years to reach Australia ... where they were cut off from natural predators by rising seas. Please also note that marsupials aren't confined to Australia ... they're also found in the Americas.

    Fine, the question is still where the record of this epic march from the Med is, why no fossils anywhere en-route. And what did the koalas eat, the furthest that Eucalyptus trees are found from Australia is New Guinea, Indonesia and the Philippines. A long trek from the Med without lunch.


  • #1704
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    Venom is a complex mixture of various cell poisons that act by affecting the working of the cells and in many cases breaking down the cell structures.

    They were completely overshot.:)
    ... and only useful for scratching their backs ... and rooting out plant bulbs.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23270323
    'The nervous system is a primary target for animal venoms as the impairment of its function results in the fast and efficient immobilization or death of a prey. There are numerous evidences about effects of crude snake venoms or isolated toxins on peripheral nervous system'
    What use is this against plants?

    I think you would find a sabre-toothed tiger's teeth quite unpleasant in your body.


  • #1705
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    obplayer wrote: »
    Fine, the question is still where the record of this epic march from the Med is, why no fossils anywhere en-route. And what did the koalas eat, the furthest that Eucalyptus trees are found from Australia is New Guinea, Indonesia and the Philippines. A long trek from the Med without lunch.
    They probably only became obligate eaters of Eucalyptus ... when they got to Australasia.


  • #1706
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    They probably only became obligate eaters of Eucalyptus ... when they got to Australasia.

    In 4000 years they completely re-designed their digestive system? Created enzymes for neutralising toxins, developed a very long caecum, slowed their digestive process to get maximum nourishment?


  • #1707
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    obplayer wrote: »
    In 4000 years they completely re-designed their digestive system? Created enzymes for neutralising toxins, developed a very long caecum, slowed their digestive process to get maximum nourishment?
    They already had the genetic diversity to do this ... 4 billion years wouldn't be sufficient to produce it ... if they didn't.


  • #1708
    Gordon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,522 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    J C wrote: »
    Genocide is never 'cool' ... and Moses was a very very bad guy indeed.

    These verses go to show that the people who should know best ... are often those who behave worst.
    Genocide is cool if it's in a 'just war' though, right? Like murder is only cool if it's done by the second Jesus, because apparently it's not murder if Jesus does it, so you say.


  • #1709
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    obplayer wrote: »
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23270323
    'The nervous system is a primary target for animal venoms as the impairment of its function results in the fast and efficient immobilization or death of a prey. There are numerous evidences about effects of crude snake venoms or isolated toxins on peripheral nervous system'
    What use is this against plants?
    Snake venom is modified saliva ... so it's pre-fall role in digestion is obvious.
    Quote:-
    Snake venom is highly modified saliva[1] containing zootoxins that facilitates the immobilization and digestion of prey, and defends against a threat. It is injected by unique fangs after a bite but some species are also able to spit.[2]

    The glands that secrete the zootoxins are a modification of the parotid salivary gland found in other vertebrates and are usually situated on each side of the head, below and behind the eye and encapsulated in a muscular sheath. The glands have large alveoli in which the synthesized venom is stored before being conveyed by a duct to the base of channeled or tubular fangs through which it is ejected.

    Venoms contain more than 20 different compounds, mostly proteins and polypeptides.[3] A complex mixture of proteins, enzymes, and various other substances with toxic and lethal properties[2] serves to immobilize the prey animal,[5] enzymes play an important role in the digestion of prey,[4] and various other substances are responsible for important but non-lethal biological effects.

    obplayer wrote: »
    I think you would find a sabre-toothed tiger's teeth quite unpleasant in your body.
    Just like an Elephant's tusk would also be quite 'unpleasant' too in your body.
    ... but isn't a very efficient hunting accessory.


  • #1710
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Gordon wrote: »
    Genocide is cool if it's in a 'just war' though, right? Like murder is only cool if it's done by the second Jesus, because apparently it's not murder if Jesus does it, so you say.
    You're getting into such moral knots ... that even I, cannot un-tangle them.


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  • #1711
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Not when the people of the world had all become irredeemably evil ... and their every though was evil.

    Every child was "irredeemably evil"? Newborn children? You don't think it's evil to kill infants?

    I can think of no crime that justifies such a wicked act, especially when it's every child on Earth. Your god committed an act of profound evil no matter how you look at it.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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