Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

daithijjj · 29-09-2014 03:32PM

rob316 wrote: »

Sakho just give me palpitations. He struggles to trap a ball, and that header for the 3rd west ham goal was just comical, for all of Skrtel's fault he his good with the ball and wouldn't head a ball like that. Skrtel and Lovren is our best pairing and we should give them the time to prosper.

On Lovren once he settles with Skrtel by his side I'm confident he well go onto be an excellent signing for us.

I'm fairly slow to criticise our defence though as what they have protecting them isn't sufficient IMO.

Do you know when Tony Pulis got sacked by Stoke and went on BT sport for a bit, he did our game and said they targetted Skrtel because he was bad on the ball?. The Pulis of Stoke!!! targetted one of our players for being bad on the ball!!!. I find it baffling anyone thinks he is good on the ball. Not saying Sakho is great either by the way.

Demosthenese · 29-09-2014 03:38PM

rob316 wrote: »

Look at who he had to partner him last season. Toure who started well but turned out to be a calamity and Agger who couldn't stay fit and was susceptible to many individual errors.

He has survived 4 managers at Liverpool and been first choice under all, they must see something in him?

Exactly ... jesus wept, i dunno what people think goes on from a monday to friday in professional clubs - BR shows up and breaks out the attacking drills and shots, then calls it a day. People are over-reacting bigtime. Skrtel has been a part of the team for long time and has seen off plenty of guys looking for his position. He has to be doing something right.

Too easy to blame 1 player instead of the collective. The team are not clicking as a collective group not 1-2 players holding them back.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 03:40PM

daithijjj wrote: »

On a certain statistical site Phil Jones is the 8th best player in Europe so far this season. Victor Moses is 9th.

Is there any other need for a debate on how useful statistics are?.

If you feel the same by just viewing games and ignoring stats then this is fair enough imo.

The only stat i used was goals that ended up in our net. A pretty important one. The reasons why are the ones we debate but i have little time for stats.

So who would you start as our central defensive pairing?

OwaynOTT · 29-09-2014 03:45PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Just looked back at the previous 14 or so seasons and most of them we shipped nowhere near the goals as last season. Bit mental when you consider we finished lower in the league the vast majority of them. Not sure how far I'd have to go back to see a worse defensive season?

Loads of players getting the blame :

Gerrard
Skrtel
Agger
Mingolet
Sakho
Lovern
Johnson
Lucas

There's no way these players are all poor defensively. Obviously some are better than others.

There's one person linking all these and that's Rodgers. He seems fairly incapable of getting a decent defensive system in place. You could any centre back in for us and we'd make them look poor.

When you have a world class player up top you can get away with it. However, take away the goals scored and we are still conceding for fun.

He needs a defensive coach or a change in tactics or its fairly obvious we won't be getting top 4.

The flip side of that is, how far do you have to go back to find a season where we scored over 100 goals.
Very few games where they didnt score last year as well.
I think Rodgers looked at his team and realised he had been sold a pup in regards to the defence, so set his system up to maximise its goals scorer qualities.
The problem this year is he has more of a stamp on the defence in terms of personnel and is trying to tighten it up but he hasn't the midfield for it yet and the likes of Allen and Can out hasn't helped.

OwaynOTT · 29-09-2014 03:48PM

brevity wrote: »

Skrtel does well when he's being coached (I'd imagine Sahko is the same).

At the moment, I don't think there is any proper defensive coaching going on and as such they are playing with fear so they sit back waiting till the last minute to do anything. Lovern appears to have some defensive nous however he is suffering from having no help.

Skrtel had a good season when Steve Clarke was about iirc...perhaps getting someone like that in would help matters.

The forwards had a poor season scoring when Clarke was about.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 03:50PM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

The forwards had a poor season scoring when Clarke was about.

I think the key is finding a balance between attack and defence. We were probably too gung ho last year but when you have Suarez you will come out on top more often than not.

I thought the shape of the team was much better Saturday.

daithijjj · 29-09-2014 03:51PM

Fescue wrote: »

So who would you start as our central defensive pairing?

I'd start the one that played away v Spurs and conceded one shot on target. Everything else has been pretty rubbish so that one deserves a run together more than any other imo.

Demosthenese · 29-09-2014 03:54PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Do you know when Tony Pulis got sacked by Stoke and went on BT sport for a bit, he did our game and said they targetted Skrtel because he was bad on the ball?. The Pulis of Stoke!!! targetted one of our players for being bad on the ball!!!. I find it baffling anyone thinks he is good on the ball. Not saying Sakho is great either by the way.

90% of the centre halves in the PL are not exactly Mattias Sammer with the ball! Skrtels distribution is ok as far as a centre half goes, sideways passes and a few short passes to midfield, rarely gets caught in possession - what Pulis meant was that he would allow Skrtel to have the ball compared to the others in the backline rather than have say Agger in possession who is far superior. Kinda like letting Johnny Evans have it compared to Rio. This is also why BR decided to get Gerard to drop in between the 2 centre halves last year to increase the chances of getting a proper ball out in possession.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 03:58PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I'd start the one that played away v Spurs and conceded one shot on target. Everything else has been pretty rubbish so that one deserves a run together more than any other imo.

They started the next game against Villa where Sakho was unable to control a ball and gave away a needless corner. Which Villa scored from and won the game.

I think that was the main reason he was dropped for the next game against West Ham.

5starpool · 29-09-2014 03:59PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I'd start the one that played away v Spurs and conceded one shot on target. Everything else has been pretty rubbish so that one deserves a run together more than any other imo.

Spurs wasted several great chances that day. Our defence was really no better than in most other games this season.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 04:01PM

5starpool wrote: »

Spurs wasted several great chances that day. Our defence was really no better than in most other games this season.

Agreed, I didn't think we looked solid at all. Certainly Lovren does not look at home at right centre back.

In many ways the real debate should be between Lovren and Sakho.

Mr Alan · 29-09-2014 04:07PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I'd start the one that played away v Spurs and conceded one shot on target. Everything else has been pretty rubbish so that one deserves a run together more than any other imo.

The weekend just gone was the most solid I've seen our defense this season.

klose · 29-09-2014 04:08PM

Poor javi :pac:

http://Instagram.com/p/th6EsOHXlb/

mosstin · 29-09-2014 04:09PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

The weekend just gone was the most solid I've seen our defense this season.

Which doesn't say much unfortunately.

mosstin · 29-09-2014 04:11PM

Demosthenese wrote: »

Exactly ... jesus wept, i dunno what people think goes on from a monday to friday in professional clubs - BR shows up and breaks out the attacking drills and shots, then calls it a day. People are over-reacting bigtime. Skrtel has been a part of the team for long time and has seen off plenty of guys looking for his position. He has to be doing something right.

Too easy to blame 1 player instead of the collective. The team are not clicking as a collective group not 1-2 players holding them back.

Shouldn't the same logic be applied to Sakho then? It hasn't been in his career with us to date.

klose · 29-09-2014 04:13PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

The weekend just gone was the most solid I've seen our defense this season.

Agreed, was interesting to see martinez try to target Moreno with lukaku like he did with monreal against arsenal last season but moreno did very well i thought.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 04:14PM

klose wrote: »

Agreed, was interesting to see martinez try to target Moreno with lukaku like he did with monreal against arsenal last season but moreno did very well i thought.

The two full backs look really good so far. Bodes well.

OwaynOTT · 29-09-2014 04:18PM

Fescue wrote: »

The two full backs look really good so far. Bodes well.

Could argue that three full backs have looked well, albeit Enrique hasn't had much game time but he looked good, some nice one touch stuff.

Kharrell · 29-09-2014 04:31PM

rob316 wrote: »

Look at who he had to partner him last season. Toure who started well but turned out to be a calamity and Agger who couldn't stay fit and was susceptible to many individual errors.

He has survived 4 managers at Liverpool and been first choice under all, they must see something in him?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't Agger mostly injured during Skrtel's time at the club? Seems he was more blessed than anything because from looking from the outside, Agger looked another level above Skrtel when he did manage to stay fit and get a run of games for you's.

As for Carragher, well, his position was near nailed on. He was hardly going to be dropped, particularly under Dalglish and Hodgson.

The people here who have highlighted Skrtel's goals last season make a valid point, it is used as something to prop up Skrtel's ability.

Can those who don't rate Sakho at all explain to me why he is a mainstay in the French national team, if going by many here, he is average or even awful? France have some terrific, young center backs and yet Sakho seems to be one of the first names on the team and performs to a very high level. I watched a recent game of theirs vs Spain not long ago, and he had an in form Diego Costa in his back pocket all game. Truth be told, Sakho was someone I was hoping Moyes would look at a couple of summers ago.

Maybe I'll be proved wrong, and if so I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong, but I don't think Liverpool's CBs will ever look truly comfortably for more than the odd game here or there until Gerrard and Mignolet are out of the starting XI. I'd be sickened if it happened, but a Pogba or Mascherano type midfielder and a commanding goalkeeper and you's would be laughing. Hopefully Rodgers continues to turn a blind eye to the former as it seems Valdes is joining.

daithijjj · 29-09-2014 04:32PM

Demosthenese wrote: »

90% of the centre halves in the PL are not exactly Mattias Sammer with the ball! Skrtels distribution is ok as far as a centre half goes, sideways passes and a few short passes to midfield, rarely gets caught in possession - what Pulis meant was that he would allow Skrtel to have the ball compared to the others in the backline rather than have say Agger in possession who is far superior. Kinda like letting Johnny Evans have it compared to Rio. This is also why BR decided to get Gerard to drop in between the 2 centre halves last year to increase the chances of getting a proper ball out in possession.

Many of them are better than Skrtel in that department, that's all that matters.

You dont "target" a player by letting them have the ball.

daithijjj · 29-09-2014 04:38PM

Fescue wrote: »

They started the next game against Villa where Sakho was unable to control a ball and gave away a needless corner. Which Villa scored from and won the game.

I think that was the main reason he was dropped for the next game against West Ham.

I wouldnt have enough time to list Skrtel's mistakes that led to goals in the last couple of seasons. I'd argue we were better as a unit defensively v Everton because Henderson did a lot of sweeping up in front of them.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 04:39PM

Kharrell wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't Agger mostly injured during Skrtel's time at the club? Seems he was more blessed than anything because looking from looking on from the outside, Agger looked another level above Skrtel when he did manage to stay fit and get a run of games for you's.

As for Carragher, well, his position was near nailed on. He was hardly going to be dropped, particularly under Dalglish and Hodgson.

The people here who have highlighted Skrtel's goals last season make a valid point, it is used as something to prop up Skrtel's ability.

Can those who don't rate Sakho at all explain to me why he is a mainstay in the French national team, if going by many here, he is average or even awful? France have some terrific, young center backs and yet Sakho seems to be one of the first names on the team and performs to a very high level. I watched a recent game of theirs vs Spain not long ago, and he had an in form Diego Costa in his back pocket all game. Truth be told, Sakho was someone I was hoping Moyes would look at a couple of summers ago.

Maybe I'll be proved wrong, and if so I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong, but I don't Liverpool's CBs will ever look truly comfortably for more than the odd game here or there until Gerrard and Mignolet are out of the starting XI. I'd be sickened if it happened, but a Pogba or Mascherano type midfielder and a commanding goalkeeper and you's would be laughing. Hopefully Rodgers continues to turn a blind eye to the former as it seems Valdes is joining.

Well it's not just a few people in here who don't rate him highly, his previous manager and current manager don't either.

I wonder is it a confidence thing with him.

Super-Rush · 29-09-2014 04:41PM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Could argue that three full backs have looked well, albeit Enrique hasn't had much game time but he looked good, some nice one touch stuff.

When Flanagan comes back we will be overwhelmed with fullbacks.

I'd play them all.

Manquillo

Flanno

Enrique

Moreno

Fescue · 29-09-2014 04:43PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I wouldnt have enough time to list Skrtel's mistakes that led to goals in the last couple of seasons. I'd argue we were better as a unit defensively v Everton because Henderson did a lot of sweeping up in front of them.

Well now we are getting to the crux of the matter in my opinion. Gerrard and Mignolet. These two are vital to both centre halves and both give very little in my opinion defensively.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 04:54PM

To a large degree, that is a matter of positioning. It certainly isn’t a matter of running. A hint of that is given by the fact that Liverpool, as a team, have made just 12.3 interceptions per game this season, the fifth lowest figure in the Premier League. That’s a statistic that requires unpacking – it could, of course, simply be that Liverpool haven’t had much defending to do; so it’s telling that of the four teams to have made fewer interceptions, only Everton have conceded more goals than Liverpool.

Is Gerrard to blame for that? It’s startling that he has made only 0.5 interceptions per game this season, which isn’t even in the top 50 for central midfielders in the league. It’s even more startling that he makes only 1.8 tackles per game – the joint-35th best for a player in his position. A pass accuracy of 87.4%, with an average of two key passes per game, is good and he has scored two goals, one of which was a penalty. But those are figures for a more advanced midfielder

Jonathan Wilson on Gerrard.

http://www.whoscored.com/Articles/d1hzwheffeusc_17fbah1q/Show/Player-Focus-Gerrard-Offering-Liverpool-Defence-Too-Little-Protection

daithijjj · 29-09-2014 04:57PM

5starpool wrote: »

Spurs wasted several great chances that day. Our defence was really no better than in most other games this season.

Many of those chances came from Moreno's side actually. He was great attacking wise but is still caught out a lot by getting dragged too centrally. He was caught out of position v West Ham too tbh.

If Sakho gets dropped that's up to the manager but the wool wont be pulled over my eyes that Skrtel is somehow better. He simply isnt and has been playing in the team for 8 of the 9 league goals conceded. We've conceded as many goals this season in 7 mins at West Ham as Sakho has in the league.

Clearly the CB's arent the only issue.

daithijjj · 29-09-2014 05:01PM

Fescue wrote: »

Well it's not just a few people in here who don't rate him highly, his previous manager and current manager don't either.

I wonder is it a confidence thing with him.

Perhaps we are only one or two more Sakho displays away from 'he wasnt a Rodgers signing'!!. Usually how it goes.

OwaynOTT · 29-09-2014 05:03PM

Super-Rush wrote: »

When Flanagan comes back we will be overwhelmed with fullbacks.

I'd play them all.

Manquillo
Flanno
Enrique
Moreno

and throw Johnson in goal eh?

Kharrell · 29-09-2014 05:09PM

Fescue wrote: »

Well it's not just a few people in here who don't rate him highly, his previous manager and current manager don't either.

I wonder is it a confidence thing with him.

Perhaps. How good is Sakho's English? A Liverpool supporting friend of mine was telling me that Lovern, despite playing in France admitted recently that his French was quite poor which I found quite odd given the number of years he was playing for Lyon. You'd think him and Sakho would be able to communicate with each other fine at the very least. Just watching him for France at the World Cup and that friendly against Spain, Sakho seems to be a lot more authoritative for them. Maybe it's a confidence thing as you said, though I think it's certainly tactical, both in in personnel and style. Is it it coincidence that all Liverpool's CBs have looked poor under Rodgers at one stage or another? I think not.

Fescue · 29-09-2014 05:09PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Perhaps we are only one or two more Sakho displays away from 'he wasnt a Rodgers signing'!!. Usually how it goes.

All is not lost for Sakho though the road to redemption is made harder by his actions on Saturday.

Skrtel was largely sidelined for much of Rodgers first season in charge before winning him over.

I probably wouldn't be so harsh on Sakho if he hadn't cost £18 million. Whoever signed off on it.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

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