The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Safehands · 28-09-2014 10:58PM

Nick Park wrote: »

I guess there's also the question as to why, if you think the world would be a better place if people didn't share their deeply held religious views, that you encourage them to do so by participating in a discussion on a Christianity Forum?

I thought you might say that (Its lousy to be predictable Nick, isn't it

) I love the debate, despite believing the world would be better if people took a more benign approach to pushing their views.
People will keep trying to persuade others that their way is the right way. There are hundreds of different opinions and dozens under the umbrella of Christianity alone. Each religion, RC's, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Jehovahs, and any number of Born again Christian sects, as well as Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, Hindus and Buddhists, can all produce brilliant articulate, educated people who will put forward very persuasive arguments for their beliefs.
Realistically, they can't all be right can they? So they question I ask is, are any of them right?

J C · 28-09-2014 11:05PM

Safehands wrote: »

I thought you might say that (Its lousy to be predictable Nick, isn't it ) I love the debate, despite believing the world would be better if people took a more benign approach to pushing their views.
People will keep trying to persuade others that their way is the right way. There are hundreds of different opinions and dozens under the umbrella of Christianity alone. Each religion, RC's, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Jehovahs, and any number of Born again Christian sects, as well as Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, Hindus and Buddhists, can all produce brilliant articulate, educated people who will put forward very persuasive arguments for their beliefs.
Realistically, they can't all be right can they? So they question I ask is, are any of them right?

Most are partially right.

Safehands · 28-09-2014 11:19PM

J C wrote: »

Most are partially right.

Who on Earth decides what bits are right and what bits are not right?

Nick Park · 29-09-2014 11:02AM

Safehands wrote: »

Who on Earth decides what bits are right and what bits are not right?

You do. You listen to various points of view and you make your own mind up. Then you live and deal with the consequences of your decision. Pretty much like most other things in life.

Safehands · 29-09-2014 11:27AM

Nick Park wrote: »

You do. You listen to various points of view and you make your own mind up. Then you live and deal with the consequences of your decision. Pretty much like most other things in life.

Its pretty difficult for a young child to listen to various points of view and make up his/her own mind. By the time the youngster gets to 18 he or she has been indoctrinated by whoever got to him/her first. In Ireland that will probably be one form of Christianity, in India its likely to be Hindu, in the Middle East its Islam. They will all tell the child that this is how it all began, that this is what they should believe. Then, inevitably someone from another religion, or sect will try to tell them that their beliefs are not correct and child will then defend the story their parents told them and on it goes!
The only absolute, undeniable truth is that they are not all correct. So a person's belief about creation depends on where he lived as a child, unless he is well educated, intelligent and an independent thinker who can rise above it all.

Safehands · 29-09-2014 01:25PM

Nick Park wrote: »

You do. You listen to various points of view and you make your own mind up. Then you live and deal with the consequences of your decision. Pretty much like most other things in life.

Incidentally, there is a little threat implied when you say "deal with the consequences of your decision". In other words; make the wrong decision and there may be some negative things happen to you. A typical religious type of threat that is very unpleasant.

Nick Park · 29-09-2014 01:28PM

Safehands wrote: »

Incidentally, there is a little threat implied when you say "deal with the consequences of your decision". In other words; make the wrong decision and there may be some negative things happen to you. A typical religious type of threat that is very unpleasant.

Please, spare us the drama. There are consequences to all decisions. That goes with the territory of making our own decisions. I think we're all old enough here to put our big boys pants on.

Now you can put your 'typical religious' stereotypes back in your pocket.

Safehands · 29-09-2014 01:41PM

Nick Park wrote: »

Please, spare us the drama. There are consequences to all decisions. That goes with the territory of making our own decisions. I think we're all old enough here to put our big boys pants on.
Now you can put your 'typical religious' stereotypes back in your pocket.

No drama, just an observation! Don't be so sensitive Nick!

Nick Park · 29-09-2014 01:59PM

Safehands wrote: »

No drama, just an observation! Don't be so sensitive Nick!

Unfortunately I am famed for my lack of sensitivity.

I was actually thinking more of my own decisions when I made the comment about living with the consequences.

For example, I reject pretty much all of what Muslims believe, and if they choose to believe I'm going to hell for that then that's no skin off my nose.

Similarly some of my Roman Catholic friends think I am outside of the true Church because I reject their ideas about the authority of the Pope and a whole heap of other doctrines.

Then there are atheists who insist that I am deluded and brainwashed because I abandoned atheism and became a Christian.

None of that bothers me, because I am at peace with myself and the choices I have made.

So, as I see it, insinuations about 'typical Christians' and imagined threats are counter-productive to us engaging in reasonable discussion.

Safehands · 29-09-2014 02:27PM

Nick Park wrote: »

Unfortunately I am famed for my lack of sensitivity.

I was actually thinking more of my own decisions when I made the comment about living with the consequences.
For example, I reject pretty much all of what Muslims believe, and if they choose to believe I'm going to hell for that then that's no skin off my nose.
Similarly some of my Roman Catholic friends think I am outside of the true Church because I reject their ideas about the authority of the Pope and a whole heap of other doctrines.
Then there are atheists who insist that I am deluded and brainwashed because I abandoned atheism and became a Christian.
None of that bothers me, because I am at peace with myself and the choices I have made.
So, as I see it, insinuations about 'typical Christians' and imagined threats are counter-productive to us engaging in reasonable discussion.

Fair enough, except I didn't say 'typical Christian' threat. I said 'typical religious'

If you listen to the preachers from the RC church, or several born agains (I am obviously not referring to you Nick), Jehovah Witnesses or Islam, you are regularly told that if you don't do this or that, or believe this or that, then you are damned, or as they put it so nicely 'You will not be saved'. They don't shout in your face that you are going to burn in hell (the priests used to but they've stopped for the time being). It is implied!
You will not be saved! What does that mean? I read it as being cast out of Heaven or paradise when you die, for eternity. Quite a long time!

Am I wrong in my observation or am I imagining it?

J C · 29-09-2014 06:00PM

Safehands wrote: »

Who on Earth decides what bits are right and what bits are not right?

God ... and History ... and sometimes logic/observation AKA science.

J C · 29-09-2014 06:07PM

Safehands wrote: »

Fair enough, except I didn't say 'typical Christian' threat. I said 'typical religious'

If you listen to the preachers from the RC church, or several born agains (I am obviously not referring to you Nick), Jehovah Witnesses or Islam, you are regularly told that if you don't do this or that, or believe this or that, then you are damned, or as they put it so nicely 'You will not be saved'. They don't shout in your face that you are going to burn in hell (the priests used to but they've stopped for the time being). It is implied!
You will not be saved! What does that mean? I read it as being cast out of Heaven or paradise when you die, for eternity. Quite a long time!

Am I wrong in my observation or am I imagining it?

What do you want them to say ... that you can reject Salvation and still go to Heaven (where you don't want to be) ... to be with a God (that you don't want to be with either)?

... or tell you the truth, that if you reject Salvation, you will get your wish to live in eternity in the opposite to Heaven, populated with beings who are the opposite to God?

It's pretty logical and basic stuff.

Safehands · 29-09-2014 08:18PM

J C wrote: »

What do you want them to say ... that you can reject Salvation and still go to Heaven (where you don't want to be) ... to be with a God (that you don't want to be with either)?

... or tell you the truth, that if you reject Salvation, you will get your wish to live in eternity in the opposite to Heaven, populated with beings who are the opposite to God? It's pretty logical and basic stuff.

I hope Nick is reading this reply. See what I mean? Believe what JC believes or you are rejecting God and you will suffer. Not imaginary, but real threats.
Leading a good life is not good enough. Islamists have their pet beliefs, Jehovahs, slightly different ones, Mormons, Hindus etc. etc. A few years ago a Catholic's punishment for visiting a protestant service was eternal punishment. This is the type of religious nonsense I was talking about. Tell this to a five year old often enough and you have your convert for life.

I would prefer to hear "Lead a good life, don't hurt anyone, help the poor and needy and whatever benefits can be gained in the next life you will enjoy" A much better message altogether.

J C · 29-09-2014 08:57PM

Safehands wrote: »

I hope Nick is reading this reply. See what I mean? Believe what JC believes or you are rejecting God and you will suffer. Not imaginary, but real threats.
Leading a good life is not good enough. Islamists have their pet beliefs, Jehovahs, slightly different ones, Mormons, Hindus etc. etc. A few years ago a Catholic's punishment for visiting a protestant service was eternal punishment. This is the type of religious nonsense I was talking about. Tell this to a five year old often enough and you have your convert for life.

Where is the threat?
If somebody is walking towards a cliff it isn't a threat to warn them of the cliff, up ahead ... it's an act of friendship and compassion.

Safehands wrote: »

I would prefer to hear "Lead a good life, don't hurt anyone, help the poor and needy and whatever benefits can be gained in the next life you will enjoy" A much better message altogether.

Of course you should lead a good life, help people worse-off than yourself ... but your Salvation isn't the result of good works ... even though it can result in you doing good works.

Safehands · 29-09-2014 11:18PM

J C wrote: »

Where is the threat?
If somebody is walking towards a cliff it isn't a threat to warn them of the cliff, up ahead ... it's an act of friendship and compassion.

A cliff is very visible. It is a physical entity. It is not metaphorical or spiritual. Its presence is not based on a belief, unlike the salvation you believe in.
See JC, salvation means being saved from something dire or very bad. So talking about something dreadful happening if I don't embrace your beliefs, even if I don't share them, is a threat. "If you don't do what I say and believe what I believe, you will suffer" Whether you like it or not, that is threatening language. You believe what you believe, that is great for you. A true Christian way of living is beautiful. It is a great way to live. It is the way Christ lived. You shouldn't tell people they are not saved if they don't engage in some rituals which confirms their adoption of that way of life.

J C wrote: »

Of course you should lead a good life, help people worse-off than yourself ... but your Salvation isn't the result of good works ... even though it can result in you doing good works.

There you go again JC. If I live my life doing good work and do absolutely no wrong to anyone or anything. I dedicate my whole life to helping people, but I don't engage in the rituals of baptism, read the bible or pray to Jesus, then God will not offer me 'salvation' or to put it another way, he will punish me. I'm sorry my friend, but I don't want anything to do with that kind of God, because he is just not nice!

J C · 30-09-2014 12:06AM

Safehands wrote: »

A cliff is very visible. It is a physical entity. It is not metaphorical or spiritual. Its presence is not based on a belief, unlike the salvation you believe in.

The spiritual realm is no less real than the virtual realm which is no less real than the physical realm.
... just like the laws of morality are just as fixed and universal as the physical laws of the Universe.

Safehands wrote: »

See JC, salvation means being saved from something dire or very bad. So talking about something dreadful happening if I don't embrace your beliefs, even if I don't share them, is a threat. "If you don't do what I say and believe what I believe, you will suffer"

Where did I say anything about suffering ... I said that you would be granted your wish by God to be separated from Him, if that is what you want ... and to be with Him, if that is what you want. Where is the threat in that?

Safehands wrote: »

Whether you like it or not, that is threatening language. You believe what you believe, that is great for you. A true Christian way of living is beautiful. It is a great way to live. It is the way Christ lived. You shouldn't tell people they are not saved if they don't engage in some rituals which confirms their adoption of that way of life.

I don't say anything about any rituals because rituals aren't required for Salvation ... the only thing anybody has to do is believe on Jesus Christ ... or not, as the case may be ... it's as easy as hailing a bus.

Safehands wrote: »

There you go again JC. If I live my life doing good work and do absolutely no wrong to anyone or anything. I dedicate my whole life to helping people, but I don't engage in the rituals of baptism, read the bible or pray to Jesus, then God will not offer me 'salvation' or to put it another way, he will punish me. I'm sorry my friend, but I don't want anything to do with that kind of God, because he is just not nice!

You don't need to do any of these things to be Saved ... but you will probably do them all after you are Saved.
Either way, why do you say that a God who gives you the freedom to love or to hate Him ... to be Saved from the consequences of your sin (or not) isn't nice?

Safehands · 30-09-2014 11:14AM

J C wrote: »

The spiritual realm is no less real than the virtual realm which is no less real than the physical realm.

Yes they are! I can show you a cliff, you can see and touch it. It has length, breadth and height! That is reality!

Show me the spiritual world JC, let me touch it, let me see it! You may feel that it exists, others may not. Comparing spirits to a physical rock is ridiculous. There is an exhibit in the modern art gallery which consists of a glass of water on a shelf. The artist says it is a tree and provides a lengthy explanation for his reasoning. It is a glass full of water sitting on a shelf, nothing else.
The spirit world may exist or it may not. A cliff does exist, end of story!

Nick Park · 30-09-2014 12:57PM

Safehands wrote: »

Yes they are! I can show you a cliff, you can see and touch it. It has length, breadth and height! That is reality!

Show me the spiritual world JC, let me touch it, let me see it! You may feel that it exists, others may not. Comparing spirits to a physical rock is ridiculous. There is an exhibit in the modern art gallery which consists of a glass of water on a shelf. The artist says it is a tree and provides a lengthy explanation for his reasoning. It is a glass full of water sitting on a shelf, nothing else.
The spirit world may exist or it may not. A cliff does exist, end of story!

So, where is the 'threat' in warning someone of a thing that they don't believe exists?

For example, if someone tells me that I shouldn't sneeze on Wednesdays because otherwise a pink unicorn will eat my eyeballs while I'm asleep, there are several ways of looking at this:

1) If the person who tells me this genuinely believes that such a consequence will follow my action of sneezing on a Wednesday, then they are (in their mind at least) doing me a service. It would be unkind of them not to warn me, if they really believed such a thing to be true.

2) Since I don't believe in pink unicorns, I am hardly going to feel threatened in any shape or form. I might well view the other person as a fruitcase, but so long as they only warn me about the actions of pink unicorns (and do not threaten to harm me themselves) then I will view them as harmless and benign nutjobs.

3) If I actually believe that there are pink unicorns who eat people's eyeballs, then the other person and I share a mutual interest - namely the best course of action to take to avoid having our eyeballs eaten. In that case their warning may prompt a discussion between us. That might result in agreement, or I might decide that it is putting salt on cornflakes that causes the pink unicorns to munch on my eyeballs. Again, we can agree to disagree and there is no threat.

It's difficult to see how I could genuinely feel threatened in any meaningful sense.

Safehands · 30-09-2014 02:04PM

Nick Park wrote: »

So, where is the 'threat' in warning someone of a thing that they don't believe exists?

For example, if someone tells me that I shouldn't sneeze on Wednesdays because otherwise a pink unicorn will eat my eyeballs while I'm asleep, there are several ways of looking at this:

1) If the person who tells me this genuinely believes that such a consequence will follow my action of sneezing on a Wednesday, then they are (in their mind at least) doing me a service. It would be unkind of them not to warn me, if they really believed such a thing to be true.

2) Since I don't believe in pink unicorns, I am hardly going to feel threatened in any shape or form. I might well view the other person as a fruitcase, but so long as they only warn me about the actions of pink unicorns (and do not threaten to harm me themselves) then I will view them as harmless and benign nutjobs.

3) If I actually believe that there are pink unicorns who eat people's eyeballs, then the other person and I share a mutual interest - namely the best course of action to take to avoid having our eyeballs eaten. In that case their warning may prompt a discussion between us. That might result in agreement, or I might decide that it is putting salt on cornflakes that causes the pink unicorns to munch on my eyeballs. Again, we can agree to disagree and there is no threat.
It's difficult to see how I could genuinely feel threatened in any meaningful sense.

Great post Nick.
I think you are missing one very valid point. If the person who told me that I shouldn't sneeze on Wednesdays otherwise a pink unicorn will eat my eyeballs while I'm asleep, was my mother or father or a serious authority figure and if I was only three or four years old, then I would most likely believe them and I would be terrified to sneeze on Wednesday. i would probably have an irrational fear of sneezing for the rest of my life. There certainly is a perceived threat to the child which could affect their mental health.

Nick Park · 30-09-2014 05:42PM

Safehands wrote: »

Great post Nick.
I think you are missing one very valid point. If the person who told me that I shouldn't sneeze on Wednesdays otherwise a pink unicorn will eat my eyeballs while I'm asleep, was my mother or father or a serious authority figure and if I was only three or four years old, then I would most likely believe them and I would be terrified to sneeze on Wednesday. i would probably have an irrational fear of sneezing for the rest of my life. There certainly is a perceived threat to the child which could affect their mental health.

I think every parent does their best to warn their children against perceived threats, but I take your point.

However, I'm not sure it applies in this discussion as you had accused me of implying a threat against you. If you are only three or four years old then I wish to compliment your parents on the incredible job they have done in teaching you good grammar and spelling!

J C · 30-09-2014 08:44PM

Safehands wrote: »

Yes they are! I can show you a cliff, you can see and touch it. It has length, breadth and height! That is reality!

Show me the spiritual world JC, let me touch it, let me see it!

Each realm is experienced in different ways ... you cannot touch or see the virtual realm ... yet it exists ... and is proven to exist by observing the products of virtual phenomena.

... similarly the spiritual realm including God exists ... and He can be proven to exist by observing the Intelligently Designed products of His Glorious Will in living organisms.

J C · 30-09-2014 08:53PM

Safehands wrote: »

Great post Nick.
I think you are missing one very valid point. If the person who told me that I shouldn't sneeze on Wednesdays otherwise a pink unicorn will eat my eyeballs while I'm asleep, was my mother or father or a serious authority figure and if I was only three or four years old, then I would most likely believe them and I would be terrified to sneeze on Wednesday. i would probably have an irrational fear of sneezing for the rest of my life. There certainly is a perceived threat to the child which could affect their mental health.

Serious authority figures warn children about all kinds of potential threats like dangers on roads, dangers from perverts and dangers from bullying, for example ... and in so doing they give children strategies and systems to protect them from such dangers ... and report them, if they arise.

There are no mental health issues as a result of such warnings ... and none that could possibly arise from describing our loving and merciful God to children either.

Safehands · 30-09-2014 09:43PM

J C wrote: »

Serious authority figures warn children about all kinds of potential threats like dangers on roads, dangers from perverts and dangers from bullying, for example ... and in so doing they give children strategies and systems to protect them from such dangers ... and report them, if they arise.
There are no mental health issues as a result of such warnings ... and none that could possibly arise from describing our loving and merciful God to children either.

The dangers you describe are real. A child can get knocked down, or abused or bullied. Parents need to advise the kids of these dangers.
Telling a child about a pink Unicorn is much more spurious.
Telling a child constantly that they will not be saved if they don't believe in Jehovah, or Muhammad or Jesus or whatever, implies that they will be punished in some way. So they are being scared at a very young age into believing what the parents believe. They become convinced, just like they would if they were told several times every day, that a pink unicorn was coming after them for sneezing on a Wednesday.
If you let them live until 18 or so without saying anything about salvation (or Pink Unicorns) and then tell them, they probably won't be as convinced, because they are not so vulnerable at that advanced age. Of course that will never happen with your kids because you believe in Salvation and punishment for being a non believer, so you will pass it on. That is the real message of religion, it is cyclical. Child learns, passes it on to his child, who passes it on in turn. A lot of it is based on fear rather than a desire to be a really good person.

Safehands · 30-09-2014 09:46PM

J C wrote: »

Each realm is experienced in different ways ... you cannot touch or see the virtual realm ... yet it exists ... and is proven to exist by observing the products of virtual phenomena.

Sorry JC, my friend, that is grade "A" Gobbledegook!

J C · 30-09-2014 10:24PM

Safehands wrote: »

Sorry JC, my friend, that is grade "A" Gobbledegook!

Its grade A truth, actually ... or do you not use a mobile phone, a computer or a virtual private network?

robinph · 30-09-2014 10:29PM

J C wrote: »

Its grade A truth, actually ... or do you not use a mobile phone, a computer or a virtual private network?

Are you trying to claim that a VPN is proof that god exists?!?

J C · 30-09-2014 10:31PM

Safehands wrote: »

The dangers you describe are real. A child can get knocked down, or abused or bullied. Parents need to advise the kids of these dangers.
Telling a child about a pink Unicorn is much more spurious.
Telling a child constantly that they will not be saved if they don't believe in Jehovah, or Muhammad or Jesus or whatever, implies that they will be punished in some way. So they are being scared at a very young age into believing what the parents believe. They become convinced, just like they would if they were told several times every day, that a pink unicorn was coming after them for sneezing on a Wednesday.
If you let them live until 18 or so without saying anything about salvation (or Pink Unicorns) and then tell them, they probably won't be as convinced, because they are not so vulnerable at that advanced age. Of course that will never happen with your kids because you believe in Salvation and punishment for being a non believer, so you will pass it on. That is the real message of religion, it is cyclical. Child learns, passes it on to his child, who passes it on in turn. A lot of it is based on fear rather than a desire to be a really good person.

Talking to your child about the dangers on the road or from bullying could be very scary for the child ... but they are very resilient and the benefits in terms of child safety outweigh any temporary stress that such discussions may cause.
When it comes to telling them that there is a loving and merciful God who wants them to share an eternity of happiness beyond their wildest dreams with Him in Heaven ... and all they have to do is to love Him back ... doesn't have any 'scare factor' ... and provides eternal spiritual safety for the child.

J C · 30-09-2014 10:34PM

robinph wrote: »

Are you trying to claim that a VPN is proof that god exists?!?

No, I'm claiming that a VPN proves that a virtual realm exists (that we cannot directly see or touch) ... and, just like God, is none the less real, as a result.

Safehands · 30-09-2014 10:42PM

J C wrote: »

Talking to your child about the dangers on the road or from bullying could be very scary for the child ... but they are very resilient and the benefits in terms of child safety outweigh any temporary stress that such discussions may cause.
When it comes to telling them that there is a loving and merciful God who wants them to share an eternity of happiness beyond their wildest dreams with Him in Heaven ... and all they have to do is to love Him back ... doesn't have any 'scare factor' ... and provides eternal spiritual safety for the child.

Ah yes JC, but you are only telling half the story. What do you tell the child when he says "what happens to good people who don't love him back?"

As I have said before, if God is loving and merciful why does he demand that I must love him to be saved? That makes him sound insecure. I love my kids, I don't demand that they love me back, and I can buy them sweets. If they don't love me back I'd be inclined to ask myself why? I would never reject them, even if they rejected me.

J C · 30-09-2014 11:09PM

Safehands wrote: »

Ah yes JC, but you are only telling half the story. What do you tell the child when he says "what happens to good people who don't love him back?"

I'd say that they get their wish to not share an eternity with God in Heaven.

Safehands wrote: »

As I have said before, if God is loving and merciful why does he demand that I must love him to be saved? That makes him sound insecure. I love my kids, I don't demand that they love me back, and I can buy them sweets. If they don't love me back I'd be inclined to ask myself why? I would never reject them, even if they rejected me.

... and neither does God reject them ... He continues to love them ... but He respects their decision to go their own way in eternal life, with a heavy heart.
... just like you too would have a heavy heart, if your much-loved precious children decided to reject you and started engaging in self-destructive activities.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Comments