Incest a 'fundamental right', German committee says

26-09-2014 03:13PM

whupdedo wrote: »

Incest..........

A game for all the family :pac:

now thats funny

Akrasia · 26-09-2014 03:23PM

MarkR wrote: »

I had a dose of the heebie jeebies reading the title, but it's hard to get away from the logic. The law is based on the presumption that we are protecting against the increased likelihoodof genetic abnormalities. That's a good reason, but if a couple who aren't brother and sister are predisposed to genetic abnormalities, they wouldn't be criminalized for having kids.

In ireland, the list of people who you can't marry includes plenty of non genetically related people.

A man may not marry his:

Grandfather’s Wife (step-grandmother)
Father’s Wife (stepmother)
Father’s Brother’s Wife
Mother’s Brother’s Wife
Son’s Wife
Son’s Son’s Wife
Daughter’s Son’s Wife
Brother’s Son’s Wife
Sister’s Son’s Wife
Wife’s grandmother (grandmother-in-law)
Wife’s Mother (mother-in-law)
Wife’s Father’s Sister
Wife’s Mother’s Sister
Wife’s Daughter (stepdaughter)
Wife’s Son’s Daughter
Wife’s Daughter’s Daughter
Wife’s Brother’s Daughter
Wife’s Sister’s Daughter
A woman may not marry her:

Grandmother’s Husband (step-grandfather)
Mother’s Husband (stepfather)
Father’s Sister’s Husband
Mother’s Sister’s Husband
Daughter’s Husband
Son’s Daughter’s Husband
Daughter’s Daughter’s Husband
Brother’s Daughter’s Husband
Sister’s Daughter’s Husband
Husband’s Grandfather (grandfather-in-law)
Husband’s Father (father-in-law)
Husband’s Father’s Brother
Husband’s Mother’s Brother
Husband’s Son (stepson)
Husband’s Son’s Son
Husband’s Daughter’s Son
Husband’s Brother’s Son
Husband’s Sister’s Son
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/getting_married/legal_prerequisites_for_marriage.html

Harry Palmr · 26-09-2014 03:31PM

Bad genes creating medical issues are most likely between first cousins I think

Karl Stein · 26-09-2014 03:33PM

Hitler.

conorhal · 26-09-2014 03:34PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

I've often said, if other let's say "non traditional" relationships are A-OK nowadays, I struggle to see the logical objection to incest.
Two consenting adults etc

You mean apart from the fact that incest is an evolutionary cul-de-sac and the fact that sibling relationships are supposed to be just that, a sexual component to them raises real questions about the emotional stability and disfunctionality of such a family unit?
The notion that consenting adults can do whatever they like is stupid, as the german cannibal and his consensual victim found out, even though they sat down to snack on his victims sauted mickey together.

Dr. Mantis Toboggan · 26-09-2014 03:35PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually even with children it is hard to know "Whats the harm". There is a common myth about incest that it "causes" genetic defects in Children but this is simply not true.

But yes, it is funny that people against the idea of adult consensual incest will often cite the children thing as their reason. Yet if you tell them "ok what if the two are entirely sterile is it now ok?" they still say no.

Which tells me one thing only: The reasons they are giving for being against incest.... are not their actual reasons. But reasons they cherry picked retrospectively to justify the position they already hold.

I myself struggle to understand if there are even arguments against incest at all that are valid. Assuming of course consensual adults. Alas "incest" is an umbrella term for many things, many of which have their own demerits that damn them. So one needs to make that clarification clear. Though even having made it I expect we will see all kinds of "Father with his kiddie daugther" type comments coming up in the thread.

So you're saying it's ok to knob your sister?

looking_around · 26-09-2014 03:36PM

Akrasia wrote: »

In ireland, the list of people who you can't marry includes plenty of non genetically related people.

But.
you can't get married, if you're already married?

who the fug · 26-09-2014 03:38PM

wazky wrote: »

Awful!

*off to ride the sister*

Yes Jim :rolleyes:

Harry Palmr · 26-09-2014 03:39PM

The reason its social frowned upon is because siblings have been brought up together, the idea that they'd suddenly get horny for each other is obviously fairly shocking esp if its happening when they are still under the family roof of course but separated children have fallen in love unwittingly since the year dot and if they never discover the truth does it actually matter?

Ush1 · 26-09-2014 03:40PM

MarkR wrote: »

I had a dose of the heebie jeebies reading the title, but it's hard to get away from the logic. The law is based on the presumption that we are protecting against the increased likelihoodof genetic abnormalities. That's a good reason, but if a couple who aren't brother and sister are predisposed to genetic abnormalities, they wouldn't be criminalized for having kids.

No it isn't, it's based on inheritance and where the money is going.

iDave · 26-09-2014 03:44PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

That would be a disaster for Dublin. Who would do all the work?

Poles?

The Diabolical Monocle · 26-09-2014 03:45PM

So going off the earlier thread where the fella got arrested for shagging a drunk woman consensually while drunk himself.

Todays world is genuinely one where you can be arrested for a drunken consensual shag yet its fine to produce banjo playing pale six toed inbreds.

(leave the Dubliners out of this)

conorhal · 26-09-2014 03:45PM

Ush1 wrote: »

No it isn't, it's based on inheritance and where the money is going.

For which reason the Pharoh's 'kept it in the family'. Didn't really make for happy relations though.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-09-2014 03:47PM

Dr. Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

So you're saying it's ok to knob your sister?

I would not say that phrase in relation to anyone myself. But if you are asking me if I can think of any arguments against the morality of consensual adult siblings having sex? No, I can not think of one.

I would _advise_ against it however as I know sex changes relationships. Usually a lot. And while sexual relationships are easy to obtain.... sibling relationships are not. They are rare, and unique in our lives and to turn them into just another sexual relationship is a decision I would not advise anyone take lightly.

But actual moral arguments against that kind of incest that are valid and not just emotional or misinformed...... I am currently not aware of any no.

Amirani · 26-09-2014 03:50PM

Birneybau wrote: »

Incest can result in seriously deformed kids, that's why it's frowned upon.

As can relationships between people with genetic disorders or indeed genomes that are predisposed to such.

Czarcasm · 26-09-2014 03:50PM

"Inbred" is often an insulting term levelled at uncivilised people. Is inbreeding now a measure of a civilised society?

I can't see it catching on myself. The headline in the article in the OP is misleading. This was just some German think-tank idea that's already been shot down by German Government.

It's not in any way an indication of a progressive society. If anything, it would be a move towards a more regressive society -

Girl doesn't pull on a night out, be grand, she's still got her father and a couple of brothers at home. Yeah, I can really see that as progressive. It's insane, and shouldn't be encouraged.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-09-2014 04:02PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Girl doesn't pull on a night out, be grand, she's still got her father and a couple of brothers at home. Yeah, I can really see that as progressive. It's insane, and shouldn't be encouraged.

That is quite a skew of the issue right there and not at all representative. The idea of someone going out and trying just to get laid, and then deciding "Oh I failed so youll do" is pretty disgusting on the face of it.

That kind of thing is disgusting already, a horrible enough picture, regardless of "incest". "I will be grand I have x y and z at home I can shag anyway" is dodgy on its own merits.

I think you are wheeling that off putting image into the subject of incest to try and make incest look bad by proxy to it. You are not attacking or saying anything about incest AT ALL in your little spiel there. You are just painting an unpretty picture and then dropping incest into the middle of it.

wazky · 26-09-2014 04:06PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is quite a skew of the issue right there and not at all representative. The idea of someone going out and trying just to get laid, and then deciding "Oh I failed so youll do" is pretty disgusting on the face of it.

That kind of thing is disgusting already, a horrible enough picture, regardless of "incest". "I will be grand I have x y and z at home I can shag anyway" is dodgy on its own merits.

I think you are wheeling that off putting image into the subject of incest to try and make incest look bad by proxy to it. You are not attacking or saying anything about incest AT ALL in your little spiel there. You are just painting an unpretty picture and then dropping incest into the middle of it.

Would it not be awkward at the dinner table on a Sunday afternoon, to have your brother and sister latch on to eachother and go at it hammer and tong at the table?

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-09-2014 04:13PM

wazky wrote: »

Would it not be awkward at the dinner table on a Sunday afternoon, to have your brother and sister latch on to eachother and go at it hammer and tong at the table?

You are doing the same thing as Czarcasm just tried to pull above. You are painting a picture that would be unpleasant at the best of times, and simply dropping incest into the middle of it to try and have peoples natural revulsion to that situation stick to incest rather than the situation itself.

Czarcasm · 26-09-2014 04:16PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

That is quite a skew of the issue right there and not at all representative. The idea of someone going out and trying just to get laid, and then deciding "Oh I failed so youll do" is pretty disgusting on the face of it.

That kind of thing is disgusting already, a horrible enough picture, regardless of "incest". "I will be grand I have x y and z at home I can shag anyway" is dodgy on its own merits.

I think you are wheeling that off putting image into the subject of incest to try and make incest look bad by proxy to it. You are not attacking or saying anything about incest AT ALL in your little spiel there. You are just painting an unpretty picture and then dropping incest into the middle of it.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was meant to paint a pretty picture of a father having sex with his own son?

"Disgusting" doesn't matter when it comes to incest apparently, so you can't say what I said is disgusting in the same way as I can't object to incest because I find the whole concept disgusting.

I'm talking about consenting adults too btw, as if that makes any difference.

wazky · 26-09-2014 04:17PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

You are doing the same thing as Czarcasm just tried to pull above. You are painting a picture that would be unpleasant at the best of times, and simply dropping incest into the middle of it to try and have peoples natural revulsion to that situation stick to incest rather than the situation itself.

What if your sister cheated on the brother with her father then?, more awkwardness.

eviltwin · 26-09-2014 04:18PM

Two consenting adults ... I don't see the problem

P_1 · 26-09-2014 04:22PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was meant to paint a pretty picture of a father having sex with his own son?

"Disgusting" doesn't matter when it comes to incest apparently, so you can't say what I said is disgusting in the same way as I can't object to incest because I find the whole concept disgusting.

I'm talking about consenting adults too btw, as if that makes any difference.

A fair point but its not as if they're holding you down and forcing you to have a bit of 'hows your father' with, well, your father. Yes of course you can object to it but you can't force your own morals on others who wouldn't necessarily object to it.

Dravokivich · 26-09-2014 04:22PM

Akrasia wrote: »

In ireland, the list of people who you can't marry includes plenty of non genetically related people.

What if they were to get divorces. It doesn't seem to say anything about Ex-Husband, Ex-Wife on the list. Or is there no change in the status with a divorce? Would it be the same for Widows/Widowers?

Gbear · 26-09-2014 04:24PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Girl doesn't pull on a night out, be grand, she's still got her father and a couple of brothers at home. Yeah, I can really see that as progressive. It's insane, and shouldn't be encouraged.

It shouldn't be the governments business to encourage or discourage.

It's none of their business.

The only vaguely sane argument for making it illegal is the possible effect of inbreeding, but I don't think that the government has any logical basis to ban the danger to an unborn child vs other dangers - cousins, 2nd cousins, drinking while pregnant, having a bad diet while pregnant, being obese at the time of pregnancy, etc...

And anyway, much the same as the laws regarding the legality of homosexuality have nothing to do with procreation, neither should any laws concerning the sex lives of consenting adults.

There's an idiotic tendency for people to conflate these sorts of arguments as being "pro-incest", "pro-homosexuality", or whatever you like. The specifics are completely besides the point. The point is that the government should not have the power to interfere in such matters at all and allowing them to do so gives them an avenue to interfere further at a later stage.

nozzferrahhtoo · 26-09-2014 04:26PM

Seriously.... are the arguments against incest so hard to adumbrate that one has to resort instead to these kind of tactics that we see from not one but two users here in parallel..............

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was meant to paint a pretty picture of a father having sex with his own son?

Youre still doing it. It is propoganda nonsense you are offering here.

As I said in an earlier post "Assuming of course consensual adults. Alas "incest" is an umbrella term for many things, many of which have their own demerits that damn them. So one needs to make that clarification clear. Though even having made it I expect we will see all kinds of "Father with his kiddie daugther" type comments coming up in the thread."

And you did not disappoint did you?

No one is asking for a "pretty picture" but what you are doing in your little propaganda stunt is deliberately painting a non pretty picture that has nothing to do with incest..... and then simply dropping incest into that picture.

The simply fact is that the scenario you painting of someone going out lusting for sex, failing to get it, and returning home to get it off whoever happens to be there.... is not a pretty picture.... and has nothing to do with incest.

You merely painted it and then dropped incest into the middle of it in the vague hope it would become slimey by proxy.

wazky wrote: »

What if your sister cheated on the brother with her father then?, more awkwardness.

And you continue to do the same crass and fetid little tactic again. You are talking about a scenario that even without incest is awkward and unpleasant. And having built up that scenario you simply drop incest into the middle of it in the hope incest will be smeared by proxy.

Take the "have your brother and sister latch on to eachother and go at it hammer and tong at the table" line for example. Replace "brother" with "father" and "sister" with "mother". I doubt there are many people here who would feel comfortable at that kind of behaviour going on at the dinner table with their parents. Or even their best friend who brought their girlfriend along. Your fetid and crass little imagery has nothing to do with incest. You just drop incest into it as a failed attempt to make it look bad.

eviltwin wrote: »

Two consenting adults ... I don't see the problem

I guess the problem is that some people can not tell the difference between "That is disgusting to me" and "That is disgusting". We can see that a consensual adult relationship between a father and son disgusts Czarcasm for example. That is fine. No reason why it should not.

But that says nothing about incest. That such a sexual relationship disgusts Czarcasm is irrelevant. That just tells us something about Czarcasm. It tells us nothing about the relationship. Or about incest.

The same argument for example is made by homophobes against homosexuals. They find it disgusting so they just _know_ in their hearts it must be wrong, and bad, and immoral somehow. But they simply can not form a cogent argument as to how. So they just come out with crass sexual imagery to make it sound worse than it is.

Czarcasm · 26-09-2014 04:26PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Two consenting adults ... I don't see the problem

Relationships between family members are fraught with difficult dynamics at the best or times.

Relationships between people who aren't related are fraught with difficult dynamics at the best of times.

Two or more family members entering into a sexual relationship is just a recipe for disaster from a sociological and biological perspective.

Society evolved from moving outside our own circles, incest would be devolution rather than evolution.

There are plenty of problems with it if you actually really gave it some thought.

Reindeer · 26-09-2014 04:28PM

wazky wrote: »

Awful!

*off to ride the sister*

Woah, there Cowboy! Let me get off her first.

wazky · 26-09-2014 04:29PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And you continue to do the same crass and fetid little tactic again. You are talking about a scenario that even without incest is awkward and unpleasant. And having built up that scenario you simply drop incest into the middle of it in the hope incest will be smeared by proxy.

Take the "have your brother and sister latch on to eachother and go at it hammer and tong at the table" line for example. Replace "brother" with "father" and "sister" with "mother". I doubt there are many people here who would feel comfortable at that kind of behaviour going on at the dinner table with their parents. Or even their best friend who brought their girlfriend along. Your fetid and crass little imagery has nothing to do with incest. You just drop incest into it as a failed attempt to make it look bad.

Bad enough catching your sister getting rogered by some randomer, would be worse if it were your father who was doing the rogering.

Ush1 · 26-09-2014 04:30PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Relationships between family members are fraught with difficult dynamics at the best or times.

Relationships between people who aren't related are fraught with difficult dynamics at the best of times.

Two or more family members entering into a sexual relationship is just a recipe for disaster from a sociological and biological perspective.

Society evolved from moving outside our own circles, incest would be devolution rather than evolution.

There are plenty of problems with it if you actually really gave it some thought.

I don't think you understand the meaning of this word and how it's useless with regards biology.

Incest a 'fundamental right', German committee says

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