How would current Irish Military fare against the Wehermacht

ken76 · 15-09-2014 4:54pm #1

This is obviously a hypothetical post . If the Germans had of invaded Ireland in WW2 the Irish army wouldn't of been able to put up much of a defense,and would of been over ran, but how would we have fared if we had the current weaponry of the Irish army, surface to air missiles, ranger wing etc and the current ships of the Irish navy.

Would Germany still easily beat us, I know its a stupid question, but it is something i always wondered.

Manic Moran · 15-09-2014 4:57pm

[Mod]Definitely moving to Walter Mitty[/Mod]

knucklehead6 · 16-09-2014 8:28am

ken76 wrote: »

This is obviously a hypothetical post . If the Germans had of invaded Ireland in WW2 the Irish army wouldn't of been able to put up much of a defense,and would of been over ran, but how would we have fared if we had the current weaponry of the Irish army, surface to air missiles, ranger wing etc and the current ships of the Irish navy.

Would Germany still easily beat us, I know its a stupid question, but it is something i always wondered.

Lets just say that a variation of Operation Rhine was used against Ireland. The variation being Tirpitz, Bismark, Scharnhorst & Gneisenau, meeting up and taking on the Naval Service. The entire naval service, every ship that ever sailed under the flag since it's inception, wouldn't come close to the tonnage and firepower of that task force.

Our Scorpions & Mowags v's their Panzer IV's.
no contest.

The sheer weight of numbers against anything we could put up against them on the ground, no contest.

It's not even something that you'd need to spend a lot of time thinking about to be honest....

Morpheus · 16-09-2014 12:34pm

ME 109s would out perform our own PC9s for a start

ken76 · 16-09-2014 2:16pm

I know it was a silly thread , but these are the type of answers i was wondering about.

Would our hardware including radar , surface to air missile etc of given us an advantage, I wouldn't expect us to beat Germany but surely they could've been repelled we would have radar etc

Morpheus · 16-09-2014 4:20pm

in sheer numbers alone, they would wipe our main forces out in hours.

What use are 8 naval vessels against the german atlantic fleet?

We have no Anti submarine capability at all

our biggest naval gun is the rapid fire 76mm oto malera vs the 28.3cm guns of the kriegsmarine? not a hope.

ken76 · 16-09-2014 5:37pm

Well that puts that to bed, thanks guys

beauf · 16-09-2014 6:20pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Countdown_(film) eh?

I assume you're thinking of technology vs sheer weight of numbers. I think you'd have to go a lot further back in history.

Also the Irish Defence forces aren't intended to fight that scale of conflict. So are not equipped for that.

Put it another way. Germany in 1939 population of almost 80 million vs Ireland Population 5 Million roughly speaking.

On the September 1st, the German forces set to war against Poland amounted to more than 1.5 million solders, 9000 guns, 2500 tanks and almost 2000 aircraft.

Jawgap · 16-09-2014 9:45pm

The Germans would be annihilated.

They would land, quickly move off the beach then as their fuel and ammo ran low mobile Irish formations would cut them off before destroying the isolated forces in detail. The Air Corps would enjoy total air supremacy and the Army would have close air support on call and a degree of air mobility.

The bigger the force the quicker it would be wiped out as it would be a logistics nightmare trying to support any sizeable force so far away from its supply depots.

The PC9s would have a field day and we'd probably have half a dozen aces by the end of the third day as no German fighter possessed the range to get this far and engage in air combat.

Beano · 17-09-2014 11:38pm

The air corps has 7 Pc-9s. 7. They have 6 westlands so air mobility for approx 80 troops? Not a major threat. Both also very susceptible to the mobile flak used by the german army.

The easiest thing for the germans to do would be to capture a harbour. Land enough troops to maintain a defensive perimeter. setup air defences with 20mm and 40mm flak to see off the air corps. land an armoured formation to push out from the harbour and capture something resembling an airfield. Ferry some planes over to this airfield. Quickly establish air superiority (luftwaffe pilots would have a distinct advantage in air to air combat so the PC-9s would not be a threat). From there its a matter of continuing to push out. No doubt there would be some casualties due to anti-tank missiles and SAMs but i doubt the PDF have enough stocks of either to put a big enough dent in the germans panzer or aircraft stregth.

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 6:10am

Beano wrote: »

The air corps has 7 Pc-9s. 7. They have 6 westlands so air mobility for approx 80 troops? Not a major threat. Both also very susceptible to the mobile flak used by the german army.

The easiest thing for the germans to do would be to capture a harbour. Land enough troops to maintain a defensive perimeter. setup air defences with 20mm and 40mm flak to see off the air corps. land an armoured formation to push out from the harbour and capture something resembling an airfield. Ferry some planes over to this airfield. Quickly establish air superiority (luftwaffe pilots would have a distinct advantage in air to air combat so the PC-9s would not be a threat). From there its a matter of continuing to push out. No doubt there would be some casualties due to anti-tank missiles and SAMs but i doubt the PDF have enough stocks of either to put a big enough dent in the germans panzer or aircraft stregth.

Yes, they would in all probability land and seize a port - probably in the SE. But what you've described is essentially Anzio in reverse.

The Germans would only have one objective - Dublin, the political and administrative centre of the country. Then they would discover that Dublin is like Rome - historically difficult to attack and seize from the south.

Given their logistics situation would they have enough fuel, ammunition etc to take the direct route through the Wicklow mountains (through terrain where the Army trains and knows intimately); the coastal route; or hook around through the more armour friendly county of Kildare?

The Army don't need to attack them when they land, just wait until they move out then get across their extending lines of communication while smaller formations simply engage and skirmish the leading German elements - the objective being not to win each engagement but to simply force them to expend their precious ammunition.

Every plane, vehicle etc they bring over has to be fuelled - it's 774km from Brest to Waterford (direct), longer if you have to detour to stay out of range of UK based aircraft - that's a lot of open sea to cross by an army that rarely crossed anything larger than a river. Supply would also be highly weather dependent across a sea wide open to Atlantic influences and storms.

Beano · 18-09-2014 9:33am

why cant that port be Dublin? I couldnt imagine that being more difficult for them to take.

beauf · 18-09-2014 11:05am

If Bismark and a few other big ships rocked up to Dublin with a few transport ships. What on earth here could oppose them.

Rather than take Dublin. Why not take somewhere else that is near to an runway.

Stovepipe · 18-09-2014 11:10am

Why attack Dublin? Don't bother getting into street fighting or wrestling with refugees blocking roads, avoid the Wicklow mountains and aim for the central plain of Ireland, looting fuel as you go, aiming to go direct to the Curragh and smash the greater mass of the DF there. An armoured spearhead from Wexford would be in the region of Carlow inside a day, as there are no barriers of any decent scale to stop them. Too many bridges across too many shallow rivers, that a Panzer could wade, if it had to. Once you get to Carlow, you are at the bottom right hand corner of the widest, flattest land in Ireland. After that, it's a direct route to the Curragh and once you reach Athy, your mobile artillery can shell the Curragh camp to pieces while your airpower, based on the previously captured Waterford airport and any other small airfield or airport, having cleaned the skies of PC-9s and A139s, strafes and bombs ahead of you. they might take a few losses from anti-aircraft fire but the Camp will be ablaze in no time. Your Pz Ivs will be in the Curragh camp by the close of the second or third day and the DF's ability to fight will have ceased, apart from the odd guerilla action, for which the Wehrmacht will kill your citizens. Dublin will fall in short order, as the Luftwaffe will bomb the barracks flat and will render Baldonnel useless and then capture it to base their own aircraft there. Paras will be dropped on the Phoenix Park and the President will be seized, provided he hasn't fled. If so, a fast column will raid the Dail and cut off the seat of power. Dublin will go into the same state of shock that befell Paris and will be declared an open city, to avoid bloodshed. Ireland will officially surrender within a day or two.

Beano · 18-09-2014 11:19am

beauf wrote: »

If Bismark and a few other big ships rocked up to Dublin with a few transport ships. What on earth here could oppose them.

Exactly. a couple of broadsides from 15 inch guns would quieten any opposition. and their range would cover well out to the suburbs.

beauf wrote: »

Rather than take Dublin. Why not take somewhere else that is near to an runway.

why not take dublin and complete a coup de main?

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 11:22am

Beano wrote: »

why cant that port be Dublin? I couldnt imagine that being more difficult for them to take.

Sounds like a 'Dieppe' - type operation......assaulting a defended port was tried and one of the reasons the Allies went for 'over-the-beach' type operations was because of the difficulty of seizing ports from the sea.

A few comments....

Where would you land? Sailing into the river would be suicidal!

It's Waaay beyond any fighter cover (and most medium bomber cover).

Overlooked by Howth & Dalkey (what's the range & rate of fire of the 105mm light gun?)

Even further away from the port of origin.

Easy range of Baldonnel, Collinstown (Dublin Airport) and Gormanstown.

Armour into an urban area in a country that 'gifted' urban guerrilla warfare to the world?

......and for the purposes of this 'thought experiment' - is there an assumption that the UK would sit blithely by and let the operation unfold without intervening? Given their 'involvement' in the NE corner of the island?

During the early part WWII (when the fear of invasion was quite real) the RAF in Aldergrove were under orders to attack any suspicious shipping approaching the Irish coast. The plan then was to send more squadrons over to Belfast to assist until the requisite 48 hr period elapsed and the British were asked to help. At that point it was anticipated that the RAF would move south to Baldonnel & Collinstown with Gormanstown as the designated repair and supply depot.

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 11:38am

Stovepipe wrote: »

Why attack Dublin? Don't bother getting into street fighting or wrestling with refugees blocking roads, avoid the Wicklow mountains and aim for the central plain of Ireland, looting fuel as you go, aiming to go direct to the Curragh and smash the greater mass of the DF there. An armoured spearhead from Wexford would be in the region of Carlow inside a day, as there are no barriers of any decent scale to stop them. Too many bridges across too many shallow rivers, that a Panzer could wade, if it had to. Once you get to Carlow, you are at the bottom right hand corner of the widest, flattest land in Ireland. After that, it's a direct route to the Curragh and once you reach Athy, your mobile artillery can shell the Curragh camp to pieces while your airpower, based on the previously captured Waterford airport and any other small airfield or airport, having cleaned the skies of PC-9s and A139s, strafes and bombs ahead of you. they might take a few losses from anti-aircraft fire but the Camp will be ablaze in no time. Your Pz Ivs will be in the Curragh camp by the close of the second or third day and the DF's ability to fight will have ceased, apart from the odd guerilla action, for which the Wehrmacht will kill your citizens. Dublin will fall in short order, as the Luftwaffe will bomb the barracks flat and will render Baldonnel useless and then capture it to base their own aircraft there. Paras will be dropped on the Phoenix Park and the President will be seized, provided he hasn't fled. If so, a fast column will raid the Dail and cut off the seat of power. Dublin will go into the same state of shock that befell Paris and will be declared an open city, to avoid bloodshed. Ireland will officially surrender within a day or two.

You seem to assume that there is fuel to loot - possibly for the vehicles but where is the rest for the aircraft (leaded high octane stuff)

also, I don't imagine the Army would simply sit in the Curragh waiting to be shelled anymore than the cabinet would sit in government buildings waiting to be seized or the president in the Aras waiting to be captured.

You're also over-estimating the accuracy of the Luftwaffe - I don't see the Ju-87 being involved unless they are going to be shipped over and re-assembled rather than ferried, which means medium bombers - which could just about hit the Curragh but any buildings hit would be by accident than by design.

Finally, if you are the Germans and you are advancing north to wreck the Curragh and attempt to take Dublin - what do you do about Cork? Are you going to leave a brigade of the Irish Army with a clear run at your rear areas? Anymore than if you strike at the Curragh and turn east on Dublin are you going to leave the formations centred on Athlone free to attack the flank and rear?

Beano · 18-09-2014 11:43am

you're not really comparing like with like. Even if they had advance notice and prepared defences how many shots do you think a 105mm gun would get off before counter-battery fire from a german battleship took them out? Any opposition would be just a speedbump.

the guerrilla warfare thing is a bit of a red herring. access to firearms is much more heavily restricted today than it was at the start of the last century. and the germans have shown themselves to be much more brutal with guerrillas than the british were.

Beano · 18-09-2014 11:45am

you make a good point about looting fuel. would ww2 vehicles even run on modern fuel? the lack of lead would have them spluttering in no time.

beauf · 18-09-2014 11:50am

Jawgap wrote: »

Sounds like a 'Dieppe' - type operation......assaulting a defended port was tried and one of the reasons the Allies went for 'over-the-beach' type operations was because of the difficulty of seizing ports from the sea....

Attacking a German held port is a little different. Especially when they have massive forces defending it. Ireland wouldn't have that.

Beano wrote: »

..why not take dublin and complete a coup de main?

Because it sucks for fighting. You pick the ground that suits you.

Cover a landing a port with the big ships. Get the closest airfield you can. Bring in aircover. Game over.

Fun thread...

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 12:09pm

Beano wrote: »

you're not really comparing like with like. Even if they had advance notice and prepared defences how many shots do you think a 105mm gun would get off before counter-battery fire from a german battleship took them out? Any opposition would be just a speedbump.

the guerrilla warfare thing is a bit of a red herring. access to firearms is much more heavily restricted today than it was at the start of the last century. and the germans have shown themselves to be much more brutal with guerrillas than the british were.

Again, I think you are assuming that the artillery crews would just sit there and wait to be fired on. I'd imagine they'd "shoot and scoot." Whatever incoming fire arrived it would strike empty positions.

Using Google Maps, you can see that the distance from Poolbeg to the M50 at Palmerstown is a sniff under 16km meaning the artillery could strike just about anywhere in the Bay from within the M50 - plenty of parks and open countryside to fire from.

Also, the counter battery fire would need to be calculated manually and a battleship would be precisely the wrong type of ship from which to mount CB fire - it's rate of fire from the main armament is too slow. The Allies used destroyers for naval CB fire - quicker firing, more maneuverable and easier to bring in close to shore.

Finally, you only have to look at the havoc the Italian partisans caused with very little in the way of arms - they managed to tie up eight full divisions (admittedly not frontline quality) in rear area security in the NE of the country in late 1944.

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 12:18pm

beauf wrote: »

Attacking a German held port is a little different. Especially when they have massive forces defending it. Ireland wouldn't have that.

Fun thread...

Dieppe was not heavily defended - 1,500 personnel from a high-number Static Division - not exactly the 1st Fallschirmjäger division;) However, they were on a high state of readiness.

I think we could muster 1,500 troops? Plus I think we can assume that such an attack would not come as a complete bolt from the blue!

Agreed - a fun thread

Beano · 18-09-2014 12:18pm

battleships have smaller guns as well. The bismarck to use an example had 15CM guns that outrange the light guns of the irish army and have a faster rate of fire. How quickly do you think a light gun can be packed up and moved? they would need to fire only once and then move. not going to do much for accuracy. and the irish defence forces would only have 12 light guns available to it. the bismarck had that many 15CM guns. and that is only 1 ship. they would bring more than one.

I think you missed my point about guerrilla forces. Guerrilla forces need arms. There just arent that many civilian arms available in this country today. in italy in the 40's most households (especially outside the cities) would have a rifle or shotgun.

Beano · 18-09-2014 12:24pm

I actually think the defence forces would struggle to raise 1500 troops for a defence, especially at short notice. there is only 1 infantry battalion based in dublin along with a cavalry squadron.

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 12:38pm

Beano wrote: »

battleships have smaller guns as well. The bismarck to use an example had 15CM guns that outrange the light guns of the irish army and have a faster rate of fire. How quickly do you think a light gun can be packed up and moved? they would need to fire only once and then move. not going to do much for accuracy. and the irish defence forces would only have 12 light guns available to it. the bismarck had that many 15CM guns. and that is only 1 ship. they would bring more than one.

I think you missed my point about guerrilla forces. Guerrilla forces need arms. There just arent that many civilian arms available in this country today. in italy in the 40's most households (especially outside the cities) would have a rifle or shotgun.

It's not just the guns - you have to locate the target, calculate the firing solution then shoot - a lot of that was manual calculation.

What's time of flight on a 105mm round fired over 15 km? About 45 seconds? Add in time to track and identify the firing location then manually work out the firing solution, communicate that information to the ship off shore and another 45-60 seconds time of flight for the return shot - I reckon the gun crew could have a cup of tea before packing up and still be grand.....

The Italians did a lot with very little - in the urban environment, petrol is your friend.

.......and if only there were people in Ireland who knew how to make home made explosives from fertiliser........

beauf · 18-09-2014 1:00pm

I think you missing the point about big ships. They would have a spotter aircraft, they could saturate an area. They would be moving, and they are armoured.

Also the Germans would probably have a parachute drop at the same time. Ala crete.

beauf · 18-09-2014 1:00pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Dieppe was not heavily defended - 1,500 personnel from a high-number Static Division - not exactly the 1st Fallschirmjäger division;) However, they were on a high state of readiness.

I think we could muster 1,500 troops? Plus I think we can assume that such an attack would not come as a complete bolt from the blue!

Agreed - a fun thread

Yes in the immediate but look at the reserves and air cover they could pull in.

burnnotice · 18-09-2014 2:18pm

Im going to split this up into 2 parts.
Part 1 - The Invasion Plan

I believe that the amphibious landing point would be north of Dublin around Malahide, Donabate and possibly a south Dublin landing around Blackrock, Sandymount.

Dublin is the inital prize, and from there a successful advance through the rest of the country with a supply network developed from the port. This can only truly be successful from Dublin due to the brillaint road network coming out of the capital. Other citys sad to say just don't have the road network coupled with a deep water port. ( I believe Dublin is a deep water port)

The amphibious assault would then move out cuting the roads to the North of the country and to the south and then sweeping out towards the m50. The goal I believe would be to capture Dublin as quickly as possible and thus capture of the M50 and an encirclement of the city would deliver this very quickly.
At the same time an airborne operation would help capture and secure the m50, m1. Dublin airport would also be targeted by an airborne assault cutting off the city of Dublin from the rest of the country and Europe and the US by air.
I think only when Dublin Port is successfully taken, and cleared would the big ships come in to resupply. No way would there be an assault on Dublin Port as in doing so would damage the ports ability to function.

Once Dublin is taken, the inital assault force reenforced and supplied, armour and transport unloaded and ready, the population under reasonable control, resistence put down brutally, and the arteries out of the city secure, the rest of the county is now in their sights.

As per Barbarossa, the Germans would split into different army groups to take the major cites and towns of Ireland all in one swoop and would use our network of motorways out of Dublin to acheive this.

beauf · 18-09-2014 2:36pm

The Germans had almost no amphibious assault capability. So they have to use a port, or drop by air.

If you change the equipment they have in WWII, you might as well have Ireland borrow a tactical nuke. A bit like the UK getting the latest-est Sidewinders for the Falklands. So I would avoid changing the equipment both sides have. That would ruin the fun of this top trumps.

Beano · 18-09-2014 2:40pm

beauf wrote: »

The Germans had almost no amphibious assault capability. So they have to use a port, or drop by air.

If you change the equipment they have in WWII, you might as well have Ireland borrow a tactical nuke. A bit like the UK getting the latest-est Sidewinders for the Falklands. So I would avoid changing the equipment both sides have. That would ruin the fun of this top trumps.

well they did have river barges that they planned to use for SeaLion. I suppose they could have towed them to ireland and then embarked the troops into them from troopships. they would not have worked for SeaLion because of the naval threat of the Royal Navy but they wouldnt have that worry with the Irish navy. Whether shallow draft river barges would make the trip to Ireland though is not one i can answer. In calm weather possibly but any kind of rough sea would sink them i imagine.

ken76 · 18-09-2014 2:41pm

Would irish navy ships be effective in anyway, how would they be best used? Would irish modern machine guns also not be better?

burnnotice · 18-09-2014 2:49pm

Dead right Beauf, when I said landing craft, I meant the barges that they were gathering for the invasion of Britan towed to shore by captured civilian vessels from main land Europe.
Im sure if they landed in Dublin Port with a big troop carrier, or more than likely a civilian vessel turned into a troop carrier, it would have taken alot more time to encircle Dublin and thus the element of surprise and speed gone.
This of course is what I would do, with equipment and logisics available to me as if its 1941 Germany.
Numbers wise, Im at a total loss as to what would be needed to take Ireland so im not going to even guess what sort of forces landed in the inital wave, ill let the rest of you folks think about that

Beano · 18-09-2014 2:49pm

ken76 wrote: »

Would irish navy ships be effective in anyway, how would they be best used? Would irish modern machine guns also not be better?

irish navy ships would struggle against even a german destroyer let alone a cruiser or battleship. and thats before we even mention u-boats.

It really depends what you mean by machine gun. If you mean section or squad level then there would not be a lot of difference. The design of the MG42 is still in service with Pakistan, albeit it in 7.62 instead of 7.92. In terms of individual weapons then the steyr is obviously preferable to a Kar98k. However, german infantry doctrine was based around the use of the MG42 not around individual soldiers firing their rifles so the advantage might not be as great as you imagine.

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 2:52pm

beauf wrote: »

I think you missing the point about big ships. They would have a spotter aircraft, they could saturate an area. They would be moving, and they are armoured.

Also the Germans would probably have a parachute drop at the same time. Ala crete.

The lesson the Germans took from Crete was that airborne assault is a vulnerable exercise (the Allies took the opposite - airborne assault is formidable) - that's why they never mounted another one after Crete - so if the hypothetical invasion took place post-Crete it wouldn't have involved paratroops unless they were landed over a beach or into a port.

Unless you have total air supremacy you cannot operate unarmed spotter aircraft.

Any op mounted on this island would have to be done without close air support or even any degree of air control - we would be beyond the range of fighter cover.

The Germans would also lack any night vision gear.

Finally, the Allies went along a steep learing curve with amphibious ops in Europe. So is the suggestion that the Germans, a continental land army, could make an initial stab at an amphibious landing and do a better job than the US and Britain - the two pre-eminent sea powers of the day with a strong marine tradition and a history of launching such ops?

Every amphibious op launched by the Allies built on the experience of what went before - OVERLORD was only a success because the planners learned from SHINGLE (Anzio) - SHINGLE built on the experience of AVALANCHE (and BAYTOWN and SLAPSTICK to a lesser extent - an example of what happens if you land too far away from your objectives) - AVALANCHE definitely benefited from the cock-ups that marked out HUSKY which itself was built on the experience of TORCH.......

You only have to examine something like the load tables for each of these operations (I've looked at HUSKY, AVALANCHE, SHINGLE and some of the OVERLORD tables) to see how the planners' thinking evolved in the 11 months between HUSKY and OVERLORD.

.......I can't see how the Germans could cross 400km (at least) of the Celtic Sea, rock up here and pull off a successful landing, sustain it and make a success of it without serving their 'apprenticeship.'

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 2:58pm

Beano wrote: »

well they did have river barges that they planned to use for SeaLion. I suppose they could have towed them to ireland and then embarked the troops into them from troopships. they would not have worked for SeaLion because of the naval threat of the Royal Navy but they wouldnt have that worry with the Irish navy. Whether shallow draft river barges would make the trip to Ireland though is not one i can answer. In calm weather possibly but any kind of rough sea would sink them i imagine.

The barges that could not be towed faster than 5 kts and were likely to founder in anything greater that 1.5 to 2m seas?

Brest to Waterford is about 250nm - towing them at 5kts would take over two days.

Even at the moment we are having quite calm weather and the wave height in the Celtic Sea (according to Irish Marine Weather Buoy Network) is 1.83m average (max is 2.73m).

Beano · 18-09-2014 3:02pm

Jawgap wrote: »

The barges that could not be towed faster than 5 kts and were likely to founder in anything greater that 1.5 to 2m seas?

Brest to Waterford is about 250nm - towing them at 5kts would take over two days.

Even at the moment we are having quite calm weather and the wave height in the Celtic Sea (according to Irish Marine Weather Buoy Network) is 1.83m average (max is 2.73m).

A direct assault on a port it is then

Stovepipe · 18-09-2014 3:22pm

Because taking Dublin would probably involve street fighting, which is usually bad news for the invaders and huge civilian casualties, as well as provoking a refugees-block-roads crisis and it leaves the centre of the DF alone, so that they can continue the fight outside the capital. Smashing the Curragh, Baldonnel and Haulbowline would ruin the three centres of military force in Ireland and ruin the ability of what's left to fight, as they would be cut off from much of the ammunition and spares for vehicles and so on. As for runways, wartime LW aircraft needed good meadows to lift off from, not international airports. They'd easily capture Cork and Waterford airports if they needed hard runways.

beauf · 18-09-2014 3:22pm

Jawgap wrote: »

The lesson the Germans took from Crete was that airborne assault is a vulnerable exercise (the Allies took the opposite - airborne assault is formidable) - that's why they never mounted another one after Crete - so if the hypothetical invasion took place post-Crete it wouldn't have involved paratroops unless they were landed over a beach or into a port.

Unless you have total air supremacy you cannot operate unarmed spotter aircraft.
...

I think you have to consider what air supremacy means. All the spotter has to do is retreat under the protection of the ships and ground forces AA. The Germans AA was awesome. Seven 9M with machine guns and light bombs and rockets. Are not going to go near that.

When the Battle of France began, Battles were called upon to perform unescorted, low-level tactical attacks against the advancing German army. This put the aircraft at risk of attack from Luftwaffe fighters and within easy range of light anti-aircraft guns. In the first of two sorties carried out by Battles on 10 May 1940, three out of eight aircraft were lost, while, in the second sortie, a further 10 out of 24 were shot down, giving a total of 13 lost in that day's attacks, with the remainder suffering damage. Despite bombing from as low as 250 ft (76 m), their attacks had little impact on the German columns.[13]

The sergeant air gunner of a Battle mans the aircraft's defensive weapon, a single pintle-mounted rapid firing Vickers K machine gun, France 1940

The bomb aimer position in the Battle was in the floor of the aircraft; here the CSBS Mk. VII is being demonstrated.
On 11 May, nine Battles of the Belgian Air Force attacked bridges over the Albert Canal on the River Meuse, losing six aircraft,[14] and in another RAF sortie that day against a German troop column, only one Battle out of eight survived.[15] During the following day, five Battles of 12 Squadron attacked the bridges; four of the aircraft were destroyed with the final aircraft crash-landing back at its base.[16] Two Victoria Crosses were awarded posthumously for the action, to Flying Officer Garland and air observer/navigator Sergeant Gray of Battle P2204 coded PH-K, for pressing home the attack in spite of the heavy defensive fire. The third crewmember, rear gunner Leading Aircraftsman Lawrence Reynolds, did not share the award. Both fighters and flak proved lethal for the Battles. Although Garland's Battle destroyed one span of the bridge,[17] the German army quickly erected a pontoon bridge to replace it.

Wreckage of a Fairey Battle shot down by the Wehrmacht, France May 1940
On 14 May 1940, in a desperate attempt to stop German forces crossing the Meuse, the Advanced Air Striking Force launched an "all-out" attack by all available bombers against the German bridgehead and pontoon bridges at Sedan. The light bombers were attacked by swarms of opposing fighters and were devastated. Out of a strike force of 63 Battles and eight Bristol Blenheims, 40 (including 35 Battles) were lost.[18][19] After these abortive raids, the Battle was switched to mainly night attacks, resulting in much lower losses.[20]

Consider then that's 1940/41 and we can allow the Germans their AA ability in 44/45.

So I think you have to assume that rather Dublin. An Airfield would be their primary objective.

Stovepipe · 18-09-2014 3:45pm

This is all about assuming that the British don't intervene, because as they proved at Crete, invasion forces are woefully vulnerable to naval intervention. They slaughtered a lot of Germans in Greek caiques. The Germans would have to get here by air for an initial landing and be supported by surface ships and U-boats. Remember, in Norway, they used fast combat ships to move Army units and even seaplanes to move men to seize bridges and port facilities. If the Germans managed to land in Wexford and establish a beachhead and establish an airfield and keep it protected, they could supply enough men and materials by Ju52s and HE-111s to consolidate and establish a secure corridor to get Panzers and artillery landed from conventional freighters. Rosslare would be ideal. The terrain around there is essentially flat so an airfield would not be an issue and there are good beaches so Siebel ferries or coasters could beach and offload. Also, people have to remember that Rhine barges are considerably bigger than UK narrowboats and quite a few of them are perfectly capable Cross-channel vessels and operate as coasters. The Germans didn't have a direct equivalent of the LCI and LCT as seen on D-day and those were hopeless at sea, which is why they were transported there on other ships.
Someone made the very good point that the Germans didn't have night vision, but what they did have was lots of well-trained gunners with very good guns and very good anti-aircraft defences and a very well motivated, aggressive soldiering mentality. One other thing they would lack would be field communications of the level that today's Irish army would have, as today's comms are down to section and individual soldier level, whereas the average German section soldier depended on shouted or written orders. They also had no radar at field level, so detection of air attack would depend on the eyeball or a ship's radar, if it was near enough. Nor did they have computers so data-linking between vehicles didn't exist.

beauf · 18-09-2014 4:00pm

Well involving other countries is a game changer. Kind of a different thread no?

beauf · 18-09-2014 4:03pm

Also I think the German comms where a little better than you give them credit for.

http://www.armyradio.com/arsc/customer/pages.php?pageurl=/publish/Articles/William_Howard_German/German_Tank_Radios.htm

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 4:09pm

beauf wrote: »

I think you have to consider what air supremacy means. All the spotter has to do is retreat under the protection of the ships and ground forces AA. The Germans AA was awesome. Seven 9M with machine guns and light bombs and rockets. Are not going to go near that.

Consider then that's 1940/41 and we can allow the Germans their AA ability in 44/45.

So I think you have to assume that rather Dublin. An Airfield would be their primary objective.

To be honest German AA capacity in 1944/45 forms a large part of what I'm involved in from a research perspective.

The Brenner was the most heavily defended bit of Axis airspace by December 1944 - nearly a thousand tubes of various calibres pointed skyward - even with the radar, the control system (giving ample warning of raids), the precision optics and the fire predictors it took 2,000 shells of 88mm calibre or heavier to bring down a single B-25 - not that a B-25 could sustain too many hits, only that 99.75% of shells expended missed.

The 20mm flak wagons they put on trains gained something of a fearsome reputation in the minds of the P-47 pilots but still failed to stop the onslaught. A low level fast moving PC9 would be a tricky target - could you manually traverse even the 20mm flak guns fast enough to track, lead and hit one?

I would've thought the easiest thing for PC9s to do is fight at night?

And there is a precedent - the Germans fought several Irish regiments through the mountains in Italy and even in the most favourable defensive terrain they were consistently out fought in the small unit, squad-on-squad type fighting that made up the mountain fighting there.

knucklehead6 · 18-09-2014 4:09pm

beauf wrote: »

Well involving other countries is a game changer. Kind of a different thread no?

not only that, but what era other country?

Modern day UK comes back in time to help us? Or WW2 Era UK helps out in an anti german invasion of ireland...

burnnotice · 18-09-2014 4:39pm

The "Resistance" to the German invasion I feel would be alot stiffer than people give our defense forces credit.
Im guessing in terms of equipment and logistics as I have no idea what the true number is but Im sure the DF have a large amount of anti tank launchers (Milans, Gustaves, Javlins) and missiles for those launchers. These weapons would have no trouble destorying even a Tiger tank at a reasonable distance.

Night vision even at the individual level would cause untold trouble for the Germans. Imagine a supply depot or staging and rest area being attacked in the middle of the night by a unit of Rangers or even conventional troops all equipped with NVGs. It would be devastating on both a manpower and morale level.
With NVGs, units would be able to move into ambush positions under the cover of darkness easily, sentries being eliminated quietly using modern suppessors and weapons, recon units being able to observe camps quietly at night and call in arti strikes using modern radio and gps equipment, even call in super accurate mortor strikes from a few hundred meters away without the enemy being able to find spotters.

Due to modern technology any anchored battleships or supply ships would be targeted by naval divers and rangers ( Im sure they have excellent underwater traning) using modern scuba equipment and drive propulsion vehicles (the little underwater motor things that are all available to the public). Fast boat to a safe distance away without drawing attention and then quietly attack the boats with mines/IEDs etc

beauf · 18-09-2014 5:14pm

Jawgap wrote: »

To be honest German AA capacity in 1944/45 forms a large part of what I'm involved in from a research perspective.

The Brenner was the most heavily defended bit of Axis airspace by December 1944 - nearly a thousand tubes of various calibres pointed skyward - even with the radar, the control system (giving ample warning of raids), the precision optics and the fire predictors it took 2,000 shells of 88mm calibre or heavier to bring down a single B-25 - not that a B-25 could sustain too many hits, only that 99.75% of shells expended missed....

I know nothing about it, other than...

rom 6 November, 1944 to 25 April, 1945 the B-25's of the 57th. Bomb Wing had fought the "Battle of the Brenner". They flew over 6,849 sorties over enemy targets in the Brenner Pass. They had dropped 10,267 tons of bombs on the following targets - (south to north) Verona, Domagliara, San Ambrogio, Bolargne, Cerano, Dolce, Peri, Ossenigo, Vo Sinistro, Ala, San Margherita, Mori, Rovereto, Galliano, Aldeno, Terento, San Felice, San Michele, Lavis, Solorno, Ora, Brozolo, Ponte, All'Isarco, Bressanone, La Cave, Campo, Vipieno, Colle, Isarco, and Brennero. The B-25's ranged past these Italian targets and bombed Austrian bridges at Steinach and Matrei.The battle had not been without cost. During this shot period, 46 B-25's had been lost (2 to fighters). Flak had damaged 532 more. From 2 January, 1945, ten men had been killed and 131 were missing in action. Ninety two men had been wounded, 12 critically. The casualty count was 223 men from the 57th. If the B-25 had not been the exceptionally sturdy aircraft it was, the losses would have been far higher.

My highlighting.

Not that a fleet would have anything like that firepower. But if you only had 7 aircraft. Any damage or loss would be critical.

Stovepipe · 18-09-2014 5:53pm

When it comes to Dublin Port, there's one entrance and exit. A battleship sitting in the entrance could block it completely and shell, as has been pointed out, anywhere within the M50. Which means, with their excellent recce photos, they can pinpoint targets of interest, such as McKee Barracks, the airport, the M50, all the bridges, DFHQ and so on. Nothing like plunging 15in, 11 inch and 105mm fire to settle things. There are no defences to the Port so an offloaded infantry company could seize the deepwater quays and cranes in a short space of time.
Problem is, going all the way up to Dublin is effectively confining a fleet in a comparatively narrow body of water. It also makes the transit for an amphibious force much longer. Far better to land in Wexford with several usable beaches and head for the Curragh. As for defending against Cork, you could put up a blocking force on the land axis from Cork to Wexford and get the Luftwaffe to keep an eye out. As for fuel, the country is awash with fuel sources and a low-compression Panzer petrol engine will run on unleaded and many of their trucks were diesel so the farmers and garages will supply that.
German radios were good but nothing like the personal role radio that the infantry have, not to mind microwave data links and satellite links that the Wehrmacht wouldn't have. Also, our lot would have GPS whereas they would be depending on recce photos and road maps.
Also, the Germans would have to have sufficient U and E-boats and destroyers and gunboats to screen the bigger ships, especially slow freighters. With regard to landing ships, the Germans had seized many ships from France and Holland so an early-war army would not have lacked shipping. Ships of that era often had their own cranes and unloaded themselves, pre-containerisation and would be well used to operating from very simple ports.
To avoid getting tied up in guerilla warfare, the Germans would have to stay on the flatland for the initial assault. I'd also imagine that they'd be true to form and take hostages/shoot opposing civilians and impose martial law/curfews as soon as possible.
politically, I think the country would collapse inside a week but guerilla fighting would kick off, especially if Irish soldiers could retreat to the hills and mountains and if the promise of external aid existed.

beauf · 18-09-2014 6:05pm

I'd love to see a Total War Version of this...

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 6:27pm

beauf wrote: »

I know nothing about it, other than...

My highlighting.

Not that a fleet would have anything like that firepower. But if you only had 7 aircraft. Any damage or loss would be critical.

Happy to discuss the Battle of the Brenner all day:)

From January to March 1945 the Germans never had less than 800 flak guns in the Brenner - about half of which were heavy.

The worst month for the USAF was March when AA on the Pass was at it's heaviest - 454 heavy guns, 498 light. Even then they only suffered 15 a/c lost and 50 Damaged Cat II (requiring out of unit repair). To put it in context, the effort that month amounted to just over 2800 sorties with nearly 3000 tons of bombs dropped. Also because of the mountain terrain, the bombers had to fly fairly predictable runs (in many cases there was only one way to strike a target) and the flak batteries could be sited on mountain sides with excellent fields of fire.

They also had to fly for extended periods over enemy territory through excellent radar cover meaning the batteries were well warned and well prepared.

Even with all the advantages they still only managed to knock down 15 a/c in their 'best' month - or one every second day. And I suspect most of what they hit were not bombers detailed to attack the primary target but the aircraft in the flak suppression flights that accompanied each raid.

Losses in air to air combat tended to involve the fighters picking off stragglers.

In summary - German flak looked terrifying but countering it, even when it was at its supposed maximum efficiency, was relatively straightforward.

The Air Corps just need to watch a few You Chube videos.....:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP_-WUMi-nw

beauf · 18-09-2014 6:42pm

Is it not different hundreds of guns aimed at many aircraft so the fire is defused. Hundreds of guns firing at a handful.

How big is this valley.

Jawgap · 18-09-2014 6:47pm

beauf wrote: »

I'd love to see a Total War Version of this...

I've run some post WWII scenarios involving the Soviets and Ireland on the 'Command: Modern air/ Naval Ops' simulation programme - it never ends well for us!

CZ 453 · 18-09-2014 6:54pm

Could we effectively destroy their ships or battleships using civilian aircraft loaded with fuel?

How would current Irish Military fare against the Wehermacht

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