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DART Underground - Alternative Routes

  • 14-09-2014 11:35am
    #1
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭


    The currently proposed circuitous route around the city centre, via St. Stephen's Green, involves building directly under Dublin Castle, and there are obviously a number of security and architectural sensitivity issues there, then it does the big loop to St. Stephen's Green, and then it has another curve under Government Buidings, with another lot of security and architectural issues.

    A route via College Green would really only face those architecture/security obstacles at just one location, viz. the North side of Trinity College.


    ---


    Note from Moderator:

    This thread is for discussing alternative routes for Dart Underground. The main Dart Under ground thread here will be reserved for discussing other elements of the project.

    This is in order to maintain distinction between the proposed project and suggested alternatives.

    For newcomers to the discussion, this thread follows on from discussion of hypothetical DU routing through College Green in the above-linked thread.


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Comments

  • #2
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Does a lot not depend on depth ?? But yeah there could be anything under there ,(did hear of of forgotten cellars/under levels being unearthed near Dublin castle.)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #3
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    The currently proposed circuitous route around the city centre, via St. Stephen's Green, involves building directly under Dublin Castle, and there are obviously a number of security and architectural sensitivity issues there, then it does the big loop to St. Stephen's Green, and then it has another curve under Government Buidings, with another lot of security and architectural issues.

    A route via College Green would really only face those architecture/security obstacles at just one location, viz. the North side of Trinity College.

    God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and wisdom to know the difference.


  • #4
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    monument wrote: »
    Not again, please!

    Actually yes Monument. I'm in favour of a direct Heuston-Spencer Dock route, pretty much as illustrated on this board by the poster Telchak.

    Can you just remind me why it's necessary to build a longer, more expensive route, with all those extra curves, and clearly more security/architectural obstacles.


  • #5
    KCAccidental
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭KCAccidental


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Actually yes Monument. I'm in favour of a direct Heuston-Spencer Dock route, pretty much as illustrated on this board by the poster Telchak.

    Can you just remind me why it's necessary to build a longer, more expensive route, with all those curves, and clearly more security/architectural obstacles.

    Can't you just read the last 45 pages of this thread?

    all of the answers are there. Multiple times. Addressed to you, personally.


  • #6
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    KC, I've read the whole lot.

    The most controversial bit of this proposed interconnector route, as far as we are aware from the discussion on this thread, is the bit between Christchurch and Pearse Station.

    The main obstacle to a direct route, as illustrated by the poster Telchak, has been identified as the North side of TCD.

    Compared to the route which Telchak visualised, the current proposal for the interconnector is a longer, more expensive route, with a number of extra curves.

    And despite the fact that it is a rather circuitous route around the city centre, with its most important station being built beside a 22 acre park, which significantly reduces its accessibility to commuters, it also appears that there would be significant architectural and security obstacles in its path. Namely Dublin Castle and Government Buildings.

    Nothing has been produced which shows that the potential passenger uptake from the detour via St. Stephen's Green is greater than just building the direct route as illustrated by Telchak.

    All we know about the St. Stephen's Green route is that it would be longer, it would be more expensive, it would have considerably less efficient uptake of passengers, and it would pass under a larger number of sites of architectural and security sensitivity.


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  • #7
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    KC, I've read the whole lot.

    The most controversial bit of this proposed interconnector route, as far as we are aware from the discussion on this thread, is the bit between Christchurch and Pearse Station.

    The main obstacle to a direct route, as illustrated by the poster Telchak, has been identified as the North side of TCD.

    Compared to the route which Telchak visualised, the current proposal for the interconnector is a longer, more expensive route, with a number of extra curves.

    And despite the fact that it is a rather circuitous route around the city centre, with its most important station being built beside a 22 acre park, which significantly reduces its accessibility to commuters, it also appears that there would be significant architectural and security obstacles in its path. Namely Dublin Castle and Government Buildings.

    Nothing has been produced which shows that the potential passenger uptake from the detour via St. Stephen's Green is greater than just building the direct route as illustrated by Telchak.

    All we know about the St. Stephen's Green route is that it would be longer, it would be more expensive, it would have considerably less efficient uptake of passengers, and it would pass under a larger number of sites of architectural and security sensitivity.

    Have you spoken to the NTA, IE, RPA, DTTAS and DCC yet?

    You know, asked the relevant questions of the relevant bodies?


  • #8
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and wisdom to know the difference.

    Jack, totally unrelated to DART underground, I was always taught it as this:

    God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    the courage to change the things I can;
    and the wisdom to know the difference.

    It obviously works well with the article and without. I wonder why we got different versions.

    In any case, it's nice to be reminded of this very important piece of advice. Thank you.


  • #9
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,547 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You have 45 pages of deeply detailed reasons as to why the other routing that you've fallen in love with is impossible. Nobody is going to tell you again.


  • #10
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    With regard to the St. Stephen's Green station, would there be very good passenger uptake from the southside?

    I can see that there would be considerable passenger uptake from the northside of the station, but one wonders about the southside. There is a 22 acre park right beside the station on the southside, with no commuters (bar the 20 or 30 people who actually maintain the park).

    And going farther south, you've got a row of offices including the Department of Foreign Affairs and couple of other things like banks and so forth, then you've got yet another park (the Iveagh Gardens).

    It's certainly difficult to see how this is the most efficient way to deliver and collect Dublin's citizens.


  • #11
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    With regard to the St. Stephen's Green station, would there be very good passenger uptake from the southside?

    I can see that there would be considerable passenger uptake from the northside of the station, but one wonders about the southside. There is a 22 acre park right beside the station on the southside, with no commuters (bar the 20 or 30 people who actually maintain the park).

    And going farther south, you've got a row of offices including the Department of Foreign Affairs and couple of other things like banks and so forth, then you've got yet another park (the Iveagh Gardens).

    It's certainly difficult to see how this is the most efficient way to deliver and collect Dublin's citizens.

    For the umpteenth time, ask the NTA, IE, RPA, DTTAS and DCC why SSG was chosen. They have the data.

    And FYI, a decision on whether to proceed with DartU under the existing Railway Order has to be taken by September 2015 by order of the High Court. And that is why IE have been asked by Govt to update the business case and prepares CPOs. And it's why the Govt is examining all available funding options, including exchequer, EIB, EU under TEN-T and private sector -- with a view to proceeding with DartU in the 2016-2021 Capital Plan.

    But then, if you were actually paying attention and following DartU --developments instead of living in your own College Green fantasy world -- you would know that.


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  • #12
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭spillit67


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    With regard to the St. Stephen's Green station, would there be very good passenger uptake from the southside?

    I can see that there would be considerable passenger uptake from the northside of the station, but one wonders about the southside. There is a 22 acre park right beside the station on the southside, with no commuters (bar the 20 or 30 people who actually maintain the park).

    And going farther south, you've got a row of offices including the Department of Foreign Affairs and couple of other things like banks and so forth, then you've got yet another park (the Iveagh Gardens).

    It's certainly difficult to see how this is the most efficient way to deliver and collect Dublin's citizens.

    You've got to me kidding me.:confused: There are thousands of workers in the area around St Stephen's Green north and south.


  • #13
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,729 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    With regard to the St. Stephen's Green station, would there be very good passenger uptake from the southside?

    I can see that there would be considerable passenger uptake from the northside of the station, but one wonders about the southside. There is a 22 acre park right beside the station on the southside, with no commuters (bar the 20 or 30 people who actually maintain the park).
    .

    To me, SSG is the heart of Dublin 2.

    To say there would just be 20 or 30 commuters is extremely naive.


  • #14
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Geuze wrote: »
    To me, SSG is the heart of Dublin 2.

    To say there would just be 20 or 30 commuters is extremely naive.

    Anyone who gets the bus in from the southside will notice the bulk of passangers depart between Leeson Street and Stephen's Green. From the proposed station it will be a 5 minute walk to Leeson Street/Earlsfort Terrace through the Park. It will be 5-10 upto Harcourt Street. In those areas you have some of the major law and accounting firms in the country as well as hundreds of small offices. To the west of the station again there are lots of businesses. It's also as close to Dawson Street/Kildare Street where lots of commuters work as well.

    It's a baffling enough statement from the OP and doesn't tally from my experience of Dublin's commute.


  • #15
    kc56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭kc56


    SSG: interchange with Luas Green Line and Metro North.


  • #16
    poteen o hooley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭poteen o hooley


    I see Paddy Power had made Strassenwolf favourite for the gold medal at the world gibberish championships.


  • #17
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Actually yes Monument. I'm in favour of a direct Heuston-Spencer Dock route, pretty much as illustrated on this board by the poster Telchak.

    Can you just remind me why it's necessary to build a longer, more expensive route, with all those extra curves, and clearly more security/architectural obstacles.

    No. I'm not going to remind you -- this has been covered to death. Look back at the countless of posts that have explained it to you already and if you're still not getting it you never will.


  • #18
    BonkeyDonker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 571 ✭✭✭BonkeyDonker


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Can you just remind me why it's necessary to build a longer, more expensive route, with all those extra curves, and clearly more security/architectural obstacles.

    Until you can provide costings that prove this please do not keep repeating this. Shorter != cheaper.


  • #19
    Avada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭Avada


    Are we really doing this again? Really?

    This nonsense argument going back and forth with no facts to go on. The route has been chosen, through SSG and yes, Dublin Castle. I assume they've done a lot more homework than any of us on here Strassenwolf.

    IMO, SSG is a good interchange, with Green line, BXD and eventually Metro North. Also, a lot less disruption when building it because they wont have to dig up the whole of college green.


  • #20
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    strassenwo!f wrote: »

    A route via College Green would really only face those architecture/security obstacles

    What security issues?


  • #21
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    And despite the fact that it is a rather circuitous route around the city centre, with its most important station being built beside a 22 acre park,

    I would have thought this ("beside a 22 acre park") a major advantage if the SSG option, they are taking a portion of the park (during construction) as a base, so they have room to work


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  • #22
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    What security issues?

    All the protestors who want the SSG option would be protesting/rioting at College Green ?


  • #23
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    I would have thought this ("beside a 22 acre park") a major advantage if the SSG option, they are taking a portion of the park (during construction) as a base, so they have room to work
    Indeed. No such project's designers anywhere in the world would simply ignore the possibility of using an existing open space when considering the design.


  • #24
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Against my better judgement, I am posting on this thread.
    LeinsterDub wrote:
    What security issues?

    For example, as part of its occasional presidency of the EU, Ireland has hosted meetings in the Castle of the EU heads of state.

    Possibly will do so again, though it's less likely, given that most of those meetings have been moved to Brussels.

    But, it's absolutely not beyond the realms of possibility that a meeting of foreign ministers, or a tribunal, or some other major banquet with a foreign head of state might at the least be seriously discommoded by a well-timed bomb on an underground train travelling directly beneath such an event.

    On a more parochial level, you also don't want a situation where there is a railway line under Government Buildings, so that a well-timed bomb could go off pretty much directly under a cabinet meeting, for example.

    As far as I can see, those would be an example of the security implications of building under Dublin Castle and Government Buildings.

    London's relatively new Jubilee line, for example, seems to conspicuously avoid the Houses of Parliament, even though it did lead to some quite expensive engineering around the Big Ben area.

    I understand this is obviously not an exhaustive list of the security implications, LeinsterDub.


  • #25
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    But, of course, we are digressing from the main issue, which is the much-discussed catchment area problems associated with the proposed circuitous line via St. Stephen's Green.


  • #26
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Against my better judgement, I am posting on this thread.



    For example, as part of its occasional presidency of the EU, Ireland has hosted meetings in the Castle of the EU heads of state.

    Possibly will do so again, though it's less likely, given that most of those meetings have been moved to Brussels.

    But, it's absolutely not beyond the realms of possibility that a meeting of foreign ministers, or a tribunal, or some other major banquet with a foreign head of state might at the least be seriously discommoded by a well-timed bomb on an underground train travelling directly beneath such an event.

    On a more parochial level, you also don't want a situation where there is a railway line under Government Buildings, so that a well-timed bomb could go off pretty much directly under a cabinet meeting, for example.

    As far as I can see, those would be an example of the security implications of building under Dublin Castle and Government Buildings.

    London's relatively new Jubilee line, for example, seems to conspicuously avoid the Houses of Parliament, even though it did lead to some quite expensive engineering around the Big Ben area.

    I understand this is obviously not an exhaustive list of the security implications, LeinsterDub.

    You have posted some nonsense on this topic over the last couple of years but this scales Mount Everest in terms of stupidity. And also shows you've lost the substansive argument so much that you're grasping any straw you can see.

    Care to answer this - how in the name of Jaysus is any terrorist group going to get a bloody great bomb, big enough to cause the havoc you suggest, in the exact spot in a tunnel with trains running through it every 5 minutes and covered by CCTV cameras at any time, never mind when there is a massive security operation in place?

    Have you thought this through or did you just batter the keyboard after a brain fart or a night on the jar?


  • #27
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    But, of course, we are digressing from the main issue, which is the much-discussed catchment area problems associated with the proposed circuitous line via St. Stephen's Green.

    May I refer you the words of Basil Fawlty to the group of Germans in his hotel...


  • #28
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,547 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    But, of course, we are digressing from the main issue, which is the much-discussed catchment area problems associated with the proposed circuitous line via St. Stephen's Green.

    The problems which only exist in your mind.


  • #29
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    You have posted some nonsense on this topic over the last couple of years but this scales Mount Everest in terms of stupidity. And also shows you've lost the substansive argument so much that you're grasping any straw you can see.

    As I understand it, the aim of the DART Underground project is to connect all the rail-based modes of transport in the city and to massively increase the potential capacity of one of those modes, namely the DART.

    Building it via a very central location like College Green, even with all the architecturally sensitive buildings there, would achieve both of these aims.

    The route via St. Stephen's Green would also do this. My worry is that it doesn't do so very efficiently, mainly because of the St. Stephen's Green catchment issues.

    One also has to bear in mind the likely development of Dublin's rail-based transport network.

    Is this stupidity?
    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Care to answer this - how in the name of Jaysus is any terrorist group going to get a bloody great bomb, big enough to cause the havoc you suggest, in the exact spot in a tunnel with trains running through it every 5 minutes and covered by CCTV cameras at any time, never mind when there is a massive security operation in place?

    Jack, I've no idea how this would be done. I know that the woman who runs the GPS system in my car is able to tell where I am and which direction I'm going, even if I switch her on when I'm on the outside lane (ie beside the middle hedge) in a traffic jam on a dual carriageway, a mere metre away from a car on the other side of the hedge going in the opposite direction.

    I don't know how she does it. (I don't even know where she is.:D)

    But I imagine that she would also be able to detonate a bomb in my car at a specific location, if she was asked. Even if she can't actually do it now, she's probably getting there.


  • #30
    poteen o hooley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭poteen o hooley


    Pity barrell scraping is not an olympic sport. We've a world class performer there in strasswoolf.


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  • #31
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,547 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    The route via St. Stephen's Green would also do this. My worry is that it doesn't do so very efficiently, mainly because of the St. Stephen's Green catchment issues.

    That don't exist.

    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Jack, I've no idea how this would be done. I know that the woman who runs the GPS system in my car is able to tell where I am and which direction I'm going, even if I switch her on when I'm on the outside lane (ie beside the middle hedge) in a traffic jam on a dual carriageway, a mere metre away from a car on the other side of the hedge going in the opposite direction.

    I don't know how she does it. (I don't even know where she is.:D)

    But I imagine that she would also be able to detonate a bomb in my car at a specific location, if she was asked. Even if she can't actually do it now, she's probably getting there.

    You are aware that GPS doesn't work underground, right?


  • #32
    Chun the Unavoidable
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Chun the Unavoidable


    would want to be one hell of a bomb when you think of the re-inforcement needed to surround a tunnel, the amount of earth between the tunnel and the ground, the weight and strength of the foundations of the buildings and the undoubted strength of the rooms/buildings themselves.

    and anyway, what of someone wants to blow up a building in the college green area?

    I think we should scrap all such underground things, and indeed close the DPT in case someone wants to blow up fairvew park.


  • #33
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    MYOB wrote: »
    The problems which only exist in your mind.

    MYOB. It's Friday. If you've nothing else on tomorrow, try and find a cafe near the junction of Earlsfort Terrace and Leeson Street - ie if there's one open - and report back about the numbers of people walking past or entering this cafe. This should give you an idea of the numbers visiting that side of the proposed line at the weekend.

    It's also worth looking at the southside of the St. Stephen's Green area on a weekday. After 0930, maybe 1000, the place dies a death. It livens up again around lunch, when the office workers come out for a sambo, but they're not using public transport to do that, and practically nobody is using public transport to get there for that or any other reason.

    Between about 1600 and 1900 it is busy, with people trying to get home. After that, there is effectively nothing.

    You have enormous numbers of hours in the week when the area on the southside of the proposed line generates effectively no passengers.

    Then, if you have a chance, MYOB, compare this with the constant flow of people into, across and around College Green.

    This is not just in my head. It's obvious for all to see if they take the time to compare the two locations and the efficiency of uptake from their respective catchment areas.

    The interconnector links rail lines on both sides of the city, and I hope that Dublin will eventually have this backbone around which to develop a comprehensive rail network on a par with cities of a comparable size in Europe. It's not a short-term solution.


  • #34
    Avada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭Avada


    Or, how about checking out the constant flow of people on the North side of Stephens Green, Grafton Street, The shopping centre, the Gaiety, The Green line Luas going to Dundrum and all along that line and the soon to be in existence BXD. Hardly quiet.


  • #35
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Random_Name wrote: »
    Or, how about checking out the constant flow of people on the North side of Stephens Green, Grafton Street, The shopping centre, the Gaiety, The Green line Luas going to Dundrum and all along that line and the soon to be in existence BXD. Hardly quiet.

    Yes, very busy. Nicely catered for by an interconnector station at College Green and a metro station at St. Stephen's Green.


  • #36
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    MYOB wrote: »
    You are aware that GPS doesn't work underground, right?

    I wasn't. I've no idea how the GPS stuff works.

    And is that going to be the same for the next, say, 100 years?


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  • #37
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Chun the Unavoidable wrote: »
    would want to be one hell of a bomb when you think of the re-inforcement needed to surround a tunnel, the amount of earth between the tunnel and the ground, the weight and strength of the foundations of the buildings and the undoubted strength of the rooms/buildings themselves.

    and anyway, what of someone wants to blow up a building in the college green area?

    I think we should scrap all such underground things, and indeed close the DPT in case someone wants to blow up fairvew park.

    I think it would want to be big to inflict havoc, as mentioned on this thread by the poster Jack Noble, even though I never said it.

    It would want to be big to cause casualties outside the train, but it wouldn't need to be very big for people above the route to be seriously discommoded, which I did say.

    Why would anyone want to attempt to blow up a bank teller, even a bank manager, or somebody working in the front part of TCD, like a cashier at the students' union office or even a professor? What would be the point of any of that?

    You can't legislate for everything, and we've seen other cities which have built effective underground lines and networks. There just aren't that many, that I can find, which go directly under such sensitive buildings.


  • #38
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,547 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    MYOB. It's Friday. If you've nothing else on tomorrow, try and find a cafe near the junction of Earlsfort Terrace and Leeson Street - ie if there's one open - and report back about the numbers of people walking past or entering this cafe. This should give you an idea of the numbers visiting that side of the proposed line at the weekend.

    It's also worth looking at the southside of the St. Stephen's Green area on a weekday. After 0930, maybe 1000, the place dies a death. It livens up again around lunch, when the office workers come out for a sambo, but they're not using public transport to do that, and practically nobody is using public transport to get there for that or any other reason.

    Between about 1600 and 1900 it is busy, with people trying to get home. After that, there is effectively nothing.

    You have enormous numbers of hours in the week when the area on the southside of the proposed line generates effectively no passengers.

    Then, if you have a chance, MYOB, compare this with the constant flow of people into, across and around College Green.

    This is not just in my head. It's obvious for all to see if they take the time to compare the two locations and the efficiency of uptake from their respective catchment areas.

    The interconnector links rail lines on both sides of the city, and I hope that Dublin will eventually have this backbone around which to develop a comprehensive rail network on a par with cities of a comparable size in Europe. It's not a short-term solution.

    You do realise that this is a mainly commuter driven project, that much of the traffic around the city centre on weekends originated in the city centre to begin with (hotels, hostels) and that we've already comprehensively proven that there is absolutely no disadvantage in terms of office worker density - actually, I think you have realised that as you're now going on about tourists.

    The people around the city centre at lunchtime are already there - no matter whether you're trying to isolate them as buying sandwiches or trying to believe they've just arrived in as you're doing for College Green. Just look at the lack of people on buses/trains at that time of day. Another red herring from you here.

    You are imaging demand issues just as you are imagining financial issues - every single one of them has been completely and utterly unpicked on here. Coming back every few weeks to try present them as new and valid does not work.
    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    I wasn't. I've no idea how the GPS stuff works.

    And is that going to be the same for the next, say, 100 years?

    Pretty much yes.


    When are you going to contact the decision makers on this, as you've so steadfastly refused to do to date? Or do you just intend to let your obsession / hidden vested interest or whatever the hell it is out on us for all eternity?


  • #39
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    poteen o hooley wrote: »
    Pity barrell scraping is not an olympic sport. We've a world class performer there in strasswoolf.

    Poteen, almost all of your posts on this board have involved you pointing out that I'm an eejit.

    You have produced nothing constructive.

    Are you sure that this is the best use of your time?


  • #40
    poteen o hooley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭poteen o hooley


    They're a zillion times more constructive than the donkey ordure you pretend to be relevant issue. As distinct from the narcissistic pseudo earnestness you posture to hide the silliness of your neurotic racket from yourself my posts are simple honesty.


  • #41
    poteen o hooley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭poteen o hooley


    They're a zillion times more constructive than the donkey ordure you pretend to be relevant issue. As distinct from the narcissistic pseudo earnestness you posture to hide the silliness of your neurotic racket from yourself my posts are simple honesty.
    Your proposals are undoubtably undoable in dublinia.


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  • #42
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    MYOB. It's Friday. If you've nothing else on tomorrow, try and find a cafe near the junction of Earlsfort Terrace and Leeson Street - ie if there's one open - and report back about the numbers of people walking past or entering this cafe. This should give you an idea of the numbers visiting that side of the proposed line at the weekend.

    It's also worth looking at the southside of the St. Stephen's Green area on a weekday. After 0930, maybe 1000, the place dies a death. It livens up again around lunch, when the office workers come out for a sambo, but they're not using public transport to do that, and practically nobody is using public transport to get there for that or any other reason.

    Between about 1600 and 1900 it is busy, with people trying to get home. After that, there is effectively nothing.

    You have enormous numbers of hours in the week when the area on the southside of the proposed line generates effectively no passengers.

    Then, if you have a chance, MYOB, compare this with the constant flow of people into, across and around College Green.

    This is not just in my head. It's obvious for all to see if they take the time to compare the two locations and the efficiency of uptake from their respective catchment areas.

    The interconnector links rail lines on both sides of the city, and I hope that Dublin will eventually have this backbone around which to develop a comprehensive rail network on a par with cities of a comparable size in Europe. It's not a short-term solution.

    Given that around two-thirds of Dart usage is commuters during the morning and evening peaks, Monday to Friday, and that SSG will still be busy off-peak due to Grafton Street and surrounding areas, while the Concert Hall and Harcourt St/Camden St clubs and pubs will also provide Dart users, your concern about the southside of Stephen's Green being quiet at night really isn't an issue for the NTA or IE or DCC.

    I'm heading for the area south and west of SSG this evening for a few jars -- I'll let you know how busy it is around 8pm.


  • #43
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    As I understand it, the aim of the DART Underground project is to connect all the rail-based modes of transport in the city and to massively increase the potential capacity of one of those modes, namely the DART.

    Building it via a very central location like College Green, even with all the architecturally sensitive buildings there, would achieve both of these aims.

    The route via St. Stephen's Green would also do this. My worry is that it doesn't do so very efficiently, mainly because of the St. Stephen's Green catchment issues.

    One also has to bear in mind the likely development of Dublin's rail-based transport network.

    The aim of Dart U is to link up the rail lines AND provide rail access is to the busiest area in the country, that area of D2 stretching from the Liffey to the Grand Canal and from Merrion St to Camden/Wexford/Aungier/George's streets -- which is the single busiest area in the country in terms of employment, retail, leisure and tourism. SSG/GS/KS junction is the epicentre of that area.

    But you keeping ignoring that bit with your 'longer detour' bollox.
    Is this stupidity?

    Your obsession with College Green and deliberately ignoring the reason SSG was selected is stupidity, IMHO.



    Jack, I've no idea how this would be done. I know that the woman who runs the GPS system in my car is able to tell where I am and which direction I'm going, even if I switch her on when I'm on the outside lane (ie beside the middle hedge) in a traffic jam on a dual carriageway, a mere metre away from a car on the other side of the hedge going in the opposite direction.

    I don't know how she does it. (I don't even know where she is.:D)

    But I imagine that she would also be able to detonate a bomb in my car at a specific location, if she was asked. Even if she can't actually do it now, she's probably getting there.[/QUOTE]

    WTF has your GPS got to do with anything?

    My point is that your 'security' concern is totally unfounded because such risks will have been assessed and catered for during the design phase.

    FFS, can you point to one such incident anywhere where a giant bomb was placed in a busy working rail tunnel under a building where VVIPs were meeting?

    The Reichstag has a U-bahn line directly beneath it and a station beside it -- has it happened in Berlin yet?

    The Palace of Westminster in London and the Hungarian Parliament in Budapest have lines and stations within less than 100 metres.

    The Jubilee line in London passes under part of Buckingham Palace.

    The White House in Washington has the same within 200 metres.

    Such security concerns are dealt with as a routine because security agencies have assessed the risks and taken precautions.

    And as someone who has seen security for big VVIP visits in Dublin up close as a reporter -- Clinton in 95, EU Presidency in 2004 and 2013, Queen Elizabeth and Obama in 2011, EPP congress in April 2014 -- I can tell you the Garda/DF operation involves a tad more than a few hundred cops in yellow jackets and barriers at key points.

    If the day comes when there are rail tunnels and station under Dublin, then the Gardai and DF will deal with the security risks involving them in the same way they deal with the current security risks in the city.

    Your original post raising your 'security concerns' re Dublin Castle smacks to me of you having wracked your brain to come up with some reason to put your College Green fantasy back on this board given that your other arguments for CG and against SSG have been comprehensively demolished my many posters.

    That is why your latest musings are 42-carat nonsense, IMHO.


  • #44
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    But, it's absolutely not beyond the realms of possibility that a meeting of foreign ministers, or a tribunal, or some other major banquet with a foreign head of state might at the least be seriously discommoded by a well-timed bomb on an underground train travelling directly beneath such an event.

    On a more parochial level, you also don't want a situation where there is a railway line under Government Buildings, so that a well-timed bomb could go off pretty much directly under a cabinet meeting, for example.
    U55 in Berlin runs under the front portico of the Paul Löbe Haus of the Bundestag...the building that houses all German MPs:
    u55p1.jpg

    If a bomb is a concern I'm sure the tunnel's concrete lining can get some sort of Kevlar blanket at that spot, if you believe for even 1 second that any type of HANDHELD explosive device could destroy a building on the surface above a tunnel that's 20m underground.


  • #45
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    In case anybody is interested, the CBD as defined by DTZ (Sherry Fitzgerald) is as follows (from Nama Wine Lake):

    cbddtz.jpg


  • #46
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭spillit67


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    MYOB. It's Friday. If you've nothing else on tomorrow, try and find a cafe near the junction of Earlsfort Terrace and Leeson Street - ie if there's one open - and report back about the numbers of people walking past or entering this cafe. This should give you an idea of the numbers visiting that side of the proposed line at the weekend.

    It's also worth looking at the southside of the St. Stephen's Green area on a weekday. After 0930, maybe 1000, the place dies a death. It livens up again around lunch, when the office workers come out for a sambo, but they're not using public transport to do that, and practically nobody is using public transport to get there for that or any other reason.

    Between about 1600 and 1900 it is busy, with people trying to get home. After that, there is effectively nothing.

    You have enormous numbers of hours in the week when the area on the southside of the proposed line generates effectively no passengers.

    Then, if you have a chance, MYOB, compare this with the constant flow of people into, across and around College Green.

    This is not just in my head. It's obvious for all to see if they take the time to compare the two locations and the efficiency of uptake from their respective catchment areas.

    The interconnector links rail lines on both sides of the city, and I hope that Dublin will eventually have this backbone around which to develop a comprehensive rail network on a par with cities of a comparable size in Europe. It's not a short-term solution.

    :rolleyes:

    Yes so the huge commuter traffic means nothing then?

    Apparently it dies a death after 7, sorry what?

    The National Concert Hall, the Gaiety, Harcourt Street, the numerous entertainment establishments surrounding SSG?

    Have you ever actually been to Dublin?


  • #47
    Avada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭Avada


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Yes, very busy. Nicely catered for by an interconnector station at College Green and a metro station at St. Stephen's Green.

    So people wishing to switch between Metro and Interconnector should have to walk between the two rather than change at the same, already planned station, because you (and seemingly nobody else) thinks its a good idea. Get real


  • #48
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Random_Name wrote: »
    So people wishing to switch between Metro and Interconnector should have to walk between the two rather than change at the same, already planned station, because you (and seemingly nobody else) thinks its a good idea. Get real

    :D I don't think anybody has suggested that!

    No, Random_Name, what we've established on the board is that the area in Dublin in which there is the highest density of workers is directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green.

    This high density area could be served by the currently proposed curvy route between Heuston and the Docklands, travelling along one side of this high density area, with a metro/DART interchange at St. Stephen's Green (and the O'Connell Bridge metro stations).

    Or it could be served by a more direct route, travelling broadly along the other side of this high density area, involving a metro/DART interchange at College Green (or some nearby location) and a metro station at St. Stephen's Green. This direct route would obviously involve fewer curves, it would be shorter, and it would thus almost certainly be cheaper, probably considerably so.

    I'm afraid you seem to have got an army of thankers for poo-pooing a suggestion which was never made.


  • #49
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    We need to get Dustin the Turkey on the case, his Presidential Election Manifesto way back when included extending the DART to Dingle. Now everybody knows that Kerry people only travel for finals and before games they always meet either outside Clereys (not inside, it's fierce pricey, Boyers around the corner have much better value) or at the Gresham for a toasted sandwich. They just won't be well served by a SSG interchange, College Green is the only way forward.
    Similarly, since the closure of the Athlone Mullingar line to passenger traffic, trains coming from Galway terminate in Heuston so the good Galway folk need direct access to Supermacs on O'Connell St as it's the only conceivable place they could meet their brethren, again SSG offers them nothing, they may as well just use the Luas but that just teases them as they pass Supermacs on the corner of middle abbey street but doesn't let them get out until lower abbey street.


  • #50
    spillit67
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭spillit67


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    :D I don't think anybody has suggested that!

    No, Random_Name, what we've established on the board is that the area in Dublin in which there is the highest density of workers is directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green.

    This high density area could be served by the currently proposed curvy route between Heuston and the Docklands, travelling along one side of this high density area, with a metro/DART interchange at St. Stephen's Green (and the O'Connell Bridge metro stations).

    Or it could be served by a more direct route, travelling broadly along the other side of this high density area, involving a metro/DART interchange at College Green (or some nearby location) and a metro station at St. Stephen's Green. This direct route would obviously involve fewer curves, it would be shorter, and it would thus almost certainly be cheaper, probably considerably so.

    I'm afraid you seem to have got an army of thankers for poo-pooing a suggestion which was never made.

    I would question that from working in the city.


  • #51
    poteen o hooley
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭poteen o hooley


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    :D I don't think anybody has suggested that!



    Or it could be served by a more direct route, travelling broadly along the other side of this high density area, involving a metro/DART interchange at College Green (or some nearby location) and a metro station at St. Stephen's Green. This direct route would obviously involve fewer curves, it would be shorter, and it would thus almost certainly be cheaper, probably considerably so.

    I'm afraid you seem to have got an army of thankers for poo-pooing a suggestion which was never made.

    Can you give us your sums again setting out why money would be saved if your alternative plan was decided.
    Just to help you, in case it slips your prognostications, I'll point out that the number of stations on DU would remain the same and given that underground stations are the really expensive bit you are really talking of a max of 300m of non station build tunnelling.
    With respect to MN you propose abandoning the O'Connell Bge station and in that scenario the RPA have stated a CG station would be replaced with 2 smaller stations at CG and the GPO. The Parnell Sq/Dorset S lobby would be watching like hawks and fully expecting their own station somewhere between the GPO and Drumcondra.

    What would you consider to be the saving by tunnelling the shorter route to CG?
    What would be the cost differential of replacing OCS station with 2 stations at CG and the GPO?
    What would be the cost of redesigning both DU and MN along with the scenic ride through the planning process? Such cost has to be set against any other savings.


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