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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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Comments

  • Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    I never said that these people think that Evolution is bunk ... they clearly are Evolutionists ... but they have serious doubts over how and whether it occurs like the modern synthesis suggests it does.
    about how evolution happens over time and categorising various organism, not rejecting it as you have incorrectly suggested.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    The book is about Darwin proposing evolution without the evidence currently available. It examines how difficult it must have been to develop the theory with what he had available back then. It is not a book stating that evolution is bunk. So you misunderstood the book or mispresented what it states. Anyways, it doesn't support your claim.
    Darwin proposed evolution without evidence ... and Spontaneous Evolution still continues to be proposed without evidence to this very day.

    Arthur Keith (1866 — 1955) Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons

    "Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable." ... as good a reason as any, for believing in Evolution ... I suppose!!!:)
    SW wrote: »
    A horticulturist who is an intelligent design advocate. Hardly an evolutionist who is still working on evolutionary studies while claiming it's bunk.
    He was an atheist and an evolutionist ... but when he discovered the levels of CFSI in living organisms he couldn't bear the cognitive dissonance of continuing to be an Evolutionist and he became an intelligent design advocate instead !!!!:eek::)
    ...and Dr John C Stanford is not just some 'common or garden' Horticulturalist :-
    Quote Wikipedia:-
    (Dr) Sanford graduated in 1976 from the University of Minnesota with a BSc in horticulture. He went to the University of Wisconsin–Madison where he received an MSc in 1978 and a PhD in 1980 in plant breeding/plant genetics. Between 1980 and 1986 Sanford was an assistant professor of Horticultural Sciences at Cornell University, and from 1986 to 1998 he was an associate professor of Horticultural Science. Although retiring in 1998, Sanford continues at Cornell as a courtesy associate professor. He held an honorary Adjunct Associate Professor of Botany at Duke University. Sanford has published over 70 scientific publications in peer reviewed journals.

    Inventions
    Sanford is a prolific inventor with more than 32 issued patents. At Cornell Sanford and colleagues developed the "Biolistic Particle Delivery System" or so-called "gene gun". He is the co-inventor of the Pathogen-derived Resistance (PDR) process and the co-inventor of the genetic vaccination process. He was given the "Distinguished Inventor Award" by the Central New York Patent Law Association in 1990 and 1995. He has founded two biotechnology companies, Sanford Scientific and Biolistics. In 1998 he retired on the proceeds from the sale of his biotech companies, and continued at Cornell as a courtesy associate professor."


  • Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Darwin proposed evolution without evidence ... and Spontaneous Evolution still continues to be proposed without evidence to this very day.
    The book about Darwin proposing evolution as a theory was about how difficult it must have been without the evidence that is currently available today.
    Arthur Keith (1866 — 1955) Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons

    "Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."
    Seems your posting nature has made it to Keiths wiki page.
    Spurious Quotation

    This quote is utilized in publications and websites in an attempt to demonstrate that Sir Arthur Keith, simply dismiss creationist viewpoints outright due to a presumed antitheistic bias.[13] However, in attempting to research this statement, one finds that it usually appears without primary source documentation.[14] In those instances where seemingly original documentation is provided, it is stated to be a Forward for a centennial edition or “100th edition” of Origin of Species.[15] However, several facts show that the attribution of these words to Arthur Keith is erroneous.
    Keith died in 1955, some four years before the 100th anniversary of Darwin’s work, so that he was clearly not available to write an introduction for the centennial edition (this was actually done by William Robin Thompson).[16] Furthermore, while Keith did write an introduction to earlier printings of Origin of Species, in use from 1928 to 1958, the words given above do not appear in that introduction.[17] Finally, the last “edition” of Origin of Species is the sixth edition published 1879.[18] It is for this reason that all later publications of Origin of Species are actually reprints of this or earlier editions so that there is simply no “100th edition” of Darwin’s work. In light of the fact that the documentation provided by Creationist publications is specious, one is still left with trying to explain the source of this citation. It is enough to say, however, that since this “quote” lacks valid documentation, it should not be regarded as one that originates with Arthur Keith himself until it can be properly documented.[19]
    so less of the misrepresentation of others por favor.
    He was an atheist and an evolutionist ... but when he discovered the levels of CFSI in living organisms he couldn't bear the cognitive dissonance of continuing to be an Evolutionist and he became an intelligent design advocate instead !!!!:eek::)
    ...and Dr John C Stanford is not just some 'common or garden' Horticulturalist :-
    Quote Wikipedia:-
    (Dr) Sanford graduated in 1976 from the University of Minnesota with a BSc in horticulture. He went to the University of Wisconsin–Madison where he received an MSc in 1978 and a PhD in 1980 in plant breeding/plant genetics. Between 1980 and 1986 Sanford was an assistant professor of Horticultural Sciences at Cornell University, and from 1986 to 1998 he was an associate professor of Horticultural Science. Although retiring in 1998, Sanford continues at Cornell as a courtesy associate professor. He held an honorary Adjunct Associate Professor of Botany at Duke University. Sanford has published over 70 scientific publications in peer reviewed journals.

    Inventions
    Sanford is a prolific inventor with more than 32 issued patents. At Cornell Sanford and colleagues developed the "Biolistic Particle Delivery System" or so-called "gene gun". He is the co-inventor of the Pathogen-derived Resistance (PDR) process and the co-inventor of the genetic vaccination process. He was given the "Distinguished Inventor Award" by the Central New York Patent Law Association in 1990 and 1995. He has founded two biotechnology companies, Sanford Scientific and Biolistics. In 1998 he retired on the proceeds from the sale of his biotech companies, and continued at Cornell as a courtesy associate professor."
    And what's that do with anything? I don't see anything in his qualifications that show him to be a leading light in evolutionary studies. Nor do I see anything published by him that disprovies evolution. So we have a scientist that rejects the current scientific understanding regarding how humans came to be.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    The book about Darwin proposing evolution as a theory was about how difficult it must have been without the evidence that is currently available today.
    What evidence ??
    SW wrote: »
    Seems your posting nature has made it to Keiths wiki page.
    ... so less of the misrepresentation of others por favor.
    The quote is valid allright ... and here is a quote along a similar vein from another Evolutionist, Dr Richard Lewontin (b. 1929) PhD Zoology Alexander Agassiz Research Professor at Harvard University
    "Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. " Review of Carl Sagan’s posthumously published book, "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" The New York Review, January 9 1997.
    http://www.drjbloom.com/Public%20files/Lewontin_Review.htm
    SW wrote: »
    And what's that do with anything? I don't see anything in his qualifications that show him to be a leading light in evolutionary studies. Nor do I see anything published by him that disproves evolution. So we have a scientist that rejects the current scientific understanding regarding how humans came to be.
    ... Spontaneous Evolution is not the current scientific understanding regarding how Humans came to be ... it is the current materialistic explanation (and a very shaky one indeed) for how Humans came to be.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    "Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. " Review of Carl Sagan’s posthumously published book, "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" The New York Review, January 9 1997.

    Seriously? A book review? Seriously?

    If I publish a skeptical review of the bible, will you accept that as evidence that the Bible is wrong?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.116-7

    "All the evidence for the hominid lineage between about 10 and 5 million years ago -- several thousand generations of living creatures -- can be fitted into a small box." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.202

    The book is not saying evolution is bunk.
    Not bunk ... just evidentially challenged ... and with the same validity as a bedtime story.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Seriously? A book review? Seriously?

    If I publish a skeptical review of the bible, will you accept that as evidence that the Bible is wrong?
    It all depends on what you say in the Review.:cool:


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    It all depends on what you say in the Review.:cool:

    Ah. Confirmation bias. Fair enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Ah. Confirmation bias. Fair enough.
    ... no ... just looking at what is said with an open mind.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    J C wrote: »
    Not bunk ... just evidentially challenged ... and with the same validity as a bedtime story.:)
    Yes, but enough about the bible, it is off topic for this thread.

    MrP


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  • Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The quote is valid allright ... and here is a quote along a similar vein from another Evolutionist, Dr Richard Lewontin (b. 1929) PhD Zoology Alexander Agassiz Research Professor at Harvard University
    "Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. " Review of Carl Sagan’s posthumously published book, "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" The New York Review, January 9 1997.
    http://www.drjbloom.com/Public%20files/Lewontin_Review.htm
    oh dear.
    ... Spontaneous Evolution is not the current scientific understanding regarding how Humans came to be ... it is the current materialistic explanation (and a very shaky one indeed) for how Humans came to be.
    Evolution is the current scientific understanding of the development of life on this planet.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Not bunk ... just evidentially challenged ... and with the same validity as a bedtime story.:)

    You're contradicting yourself. You say it's not bunk and then equate evolution to a bedtime story.

    And there is a certain irony in a creationist dismissing evolution for being evidentially challenged while stating the account in Genesis is actually how humans came to be.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    J C wrote: »
    I never said that these people think that Evolution is bunk ... they clearly are Evolutionists ... but they have serious doubts over how and whether it occurs like the modern synthesis suggests it does.

    You did indeed present it as examples of people doubting evolution, as opposed to doubting if the details of evolution work the way we have at certain points assumed it to have functioned.

    In fact you continue to do so now when you say that these evolutionists have doubt whether evolution occurs? Amazing... I would think a better way to describe people who doubt if evolution occurs as "non-evolutionists".

    What you present is like saying that because we now understand more about how a retrovirus works, we are casting doubt on the "theory" that aids is a communicable disease.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Yes, but enough about the bible, it is off topic for this thread.

    MrP
    Its not off topic ... just not relevant to the quote cited by you.:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    oh dear.

    Evolution is the current scientific understanding of the development of life on this planet.
    ... not among conventional scientists who are Creationists and ID Proponents ... nor indeed among many scientists who are materialists, in moments when they have a crisis of faith ... and start expressing grave doubts about it's validity!!!:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    You're contradicting yourself. You say it's not bunk and then equate evolution to a bedtime story.
    What I meant is that I never used the word 'bunk' to describe Evolution ... I just presented a quote from an evolutionist describing gradualism within the fossil record as little more than a bedtime story ... and you guys concluded that I was saying that it was bunk ... when all I did was quoted an Evolutionist on the subject.

    I'm only the messenger in all of this!!:)
    SW wrote: »
    And there is a certain irony in a creationist dismissing evolution for being evidentially challenged while stating the account in Genesis is actually how humans came to be.
    The physical evidence for the intelligent design of life by an intelligence of inordinate capacity AKA God is simply overwhelming and scientifically valid.
    Whether it was the God of the Bible acting in accordance with the Genesis account is a matter of faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    J C wrote: »
    What I meant is that I never used the word 'bunk' to describe Evolution ... I just presented a quote from an evolutionist describing gradualism within the fossil record as little more than a bedtime story ... and you guys concluded that I was saying that it was bunk ... when all I did was quoted an Evolutionist on the subject.

    I'm only the messenger in all of this!!:)

    The physical evidence for the intelligent design of life by an intelligence of inordinate capacity AKA God is simply overwhelming and scientifically valid.
    Whether it was the God of the Bible acting in accordance with the Genesis account is a matter of faith.

    Do yourself a favour and call this statement faith based also, you really won't get away with that.


  • Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... not among conventional scientists who are Creationists and ID Proponents ... nor indeed among many scientists who are materialists, in moments when they have a crisis of faith ... and start expressing grave doubts about it's validity!!!:)
    really? creationists don't accept evolution. I think I need a sit down after that revelation.
    J C wrote: »
    What I meant is that I never used the word 'bunk' to describe Evolution ... I just presented a quote from an evolutionist describing gradualism within the fossil record as little more than a bedtime story ... and you guys concluded that I was saying that it was bunk ... when all I did was quoted an Evolutionist on the subject.

    I'm only the messenger in all of this!!:)
    Pull the other one, JC. If someone said that something was a fairytale, most people would read that to mean 'bunk'.
    The physical evidence for the intelligent design of life by an intelligence of inordinate capacity AKA God is simply overwhelming and scientifically valid.
    Whether it was the God of the Bible acting in accordance with the Genesis account is a matter of faith.
    Creationism is attempting to shoehorn Genesis into the realm of science. There is no suporting evidence for the biblical account for the origin of mankind. Evolution however does have evidence to support it.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Must... Destroy... Smiley faces...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Must... Destroy... Smiley faces...
    Smile ... and the world smiles with you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Pull the other one, JC. If someone said that something was a fairytale, most people would read that to mean 'bunk'.

    Henry Gee used the fairytale word ... and you used the bunk word ... and I merely joined the dots!!!:eek:


  • Moderators Posts: 52,024 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Henry Gee used the fairytale word ... and you used the bunk word ... and I merely joined the dots!!!:eek:
    but Gee didn't say that evolution is a fairytale. Something that you mistakenly claimed he did say. Prettymuch all the quotes you provided fall under the category of misunderstanding or misrepresenting the quote.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭sephir0th


    Years later, and J.C. is still finding new victims. The ultimate troll as Wicknight/Zombrex believed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    but Gee didn't say that evolution is a fairytale. Something that you mistakenly claimed he did say. Prettymuch all the quotes you provided fall under the category of misunderstanding or misrepresenting the quote.

    This is what he said
    Quote:-

    "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.116-7

    ... I guess most, if not all, of the so-called 'fossil evidence' for evolution 'bites the dust' on that one.

    Quite obviously no Evolutionist is going to say that Evolution is 'bunk' ... and if they did, they would effectively cease to be an evolutionist.

    However, many cast doubt on various critical aspects of evolution - and I agree with their assessments in this regard.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »
    This is what he said
    Quote:-

    "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.116-7

    ... I guess most, if not all, of the so-called 'fossil evidence' for evolution 'bites the dust' on that one.

    Quite obviously no Evolutionist is going to say that Evolution is 'bunk' ... and if they did, they would effectively cease to be an evolutionist.

    However, many cast doubt on various critical aspects of evolution - and I agree with their assessments in this regard.
    So are you claiming that all of these evolutionists agree with all of your arguments, secretly or otherwise?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    This is what he said
    Quote:-

    "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.116-7

    ... I guess most, if not all, of the so-called 'fossil evidence' for evolution 'bites the dust' on that one.

    An entire field of science bites the dust because one scientist makes a rather specious claim about it?

    I know it probably hasn't occurred to you that Henry Gee might be wrong, because he said something that you can claim is supportive of your views (and I'm pretty certain he would laugh in your face if you tried to claim him as a supporter of Creationism), but there are those who have disagreed - eloquently - with him.

    http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/nature-editor-henry-gee-goes-all-anti-science/

    In other words, has it occurred to you that someone who apparently agrees with you might be wrong?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    King Mob wrote: »
    So are you claiming that all of these evolutionists agree with all of your arguments, secretly or otherwise?
    I'm not claiming that they agree with all of my arguments.
    If they did, that would make them Creationists ... and they certainly aren't Creationists.

    They are Evolutionists who are honestly and objectively looking at the various serious evidential and logical weaknesses in the theory that evolution is the source of the genetic diversity of life.

    These are very capable and eminent scientists ... and I suppose they reckon that the first thing to be done is to identify the weaknesses of Evolution ... and then to try and test various alternative ideas that will overcome the weaknesses with more plausible and evidentially supported new hypotheses.

    This is a totally legitimate activity and it is how science progresses ... so I applaud them for doing so.

    I have serious doubts that they will succeed ... but I fully support them in trying.

    ... and perhaps you may also be surprised to learn that I have no problem with my 'tax dollars' being used for such pure and fundamental research.

    That is, after all, what academic freedom and respect for diversity of opinion is all about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    An entire field of science bites the dust because one scientist makes a rather specious claim about it?
    Not just one scientist ... but many eminent Evolutionists are finding serious issues with the theory ... and are 'calling it like it is'.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I know it probably hasn't occurred to you that Henry Gee might be wrong, because he said something that you can claim is supportive of your views (and I'm pretty certain he would laugh in your face if you tried to claim him as a supporter of Creationism), but there are those who have disagreed - eloquently - with him.
    Of course he could be wrong on this issue ... and indeed I might be wrong on many issues ... but try as I might ... and I did make a mighty effort, when I was an Evolutionist, I couldn't overcome these fundamental issues with Evolution, myself.
    I don't know the man personally, so I have no idea what he would make of me ... but I'm sure he would reciprocate the respect I have for him as a scientist of absolute integrity and obviously eminent ability.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/nature-editor-henry-gee-goes-all-anti-science/

    In other words, has it occurred to you that someone who apparently agrees with you might be wrong?
    Dr Henry Gee expressed honestly held reservations about Evolution Theory and in particular, the non-scientific nature of conclusions being drawn in relation to the so-called 'fossil record' in support of Evolution.
    Expressing such reservations is quite legitimate, and occurs in every area of science, about particular aspects of various hypotheses.
    What is unique to Evolution, is that any hint of criticism is often viewed as some kind of 'anti-science' remark ... when it is actually an attempt to develop, even evolve, if you will, the Theory.

    Such criticism of honest questioning, can be stifling of proper scientific assessment of the undoubted weaknesses of Evolution ... and indeed it can affect progress in developing the Theory.
    ... and even if Creation Scientists, like myself, latch on to the reservations ... Evolution Theory, if it is valid, should be robust enough to be defended against such criticism ... but here is the rub ... it hasn't largely been able to be so defended.

    Now, what does that tell you about it?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »
    I'm not claiming that they agree with all of my arguments.
    If they did, that would make them Creationists ... and they certainly aren't Creationists.

    They are Evolutionists who are honestly and objectively looking at the various serious evidential and logical weaknesses in the theory that evolution is the source of the genetic diversity of life.

    So they all believe that evolution is completely and utterly wrong and that creationism is right?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    King Mob wrote: »
    So they all believe that evolution is completely and utterly wrong and that creationism is right?
    You're trying to put incorrect words in my mouth!!

    I never said, nor do I believe that "all believe that evolution is completely and utterly wrong and that creationism is right".
    There are aspects to evolution, like Natural Selection of pre-existing genetic diversity that are objectively true ... and some Evolutionists believe everything positive that is said about evolution and none of the negative things.
    ... other Evolutionists are more nuanced about what they accept about evolution and they have grave doubts about significant aspects of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis.
    ... and there are other (former) Evolutionists, like myself, who are now Creationists or ID proponents.;)


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