Beef in Crisis

Farmer Pudsey · 09-09-2014 08:28AM

Trying to blockade Factory's or chill area's or prevent meat being transported is not workable. The reality this will only back up supply and cause issue dowm the road for finishers.

I think a mass withdrawal from the QA scheme is a goo idea but IFA is dead set against it. I think pressure on the Competition authority is another option. Getting them to stop processors owning or directly operating feedlots would help competition. Yes taking it political and action against minster is a possibility but too many IFA leaders have political ambition for this to be a runner.

The present targeting of supermarkets and fast food outlets is a good idea. Another idea might br to target the factory that is the bottom of the FJ price league every week and blockade it alone for the following wek however not sure if it is an option. As well the targeting of Tesco because of its public stance on nomad beef might help resolve this export issue

whelan2 · 09-09-2014 08:43AM

joe Healy in todays farming indo " last weeks estimated kill of over 34,000 was not only 3140 head up on last year but also one of the largest kils since 2011"

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 08:45AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Trying to blockade Factory's or chill area's or prevent meat being transported is not workable. The reality this will only back up supply and cause issue dowm the road for finishers.

I think a mass withdrawal from the QA scheme is a goo idea but IFA is dead set against it. I think pressure on the Competition authority is another option. Getting them to stop processors owning or directly operating feedlots would help competition. Yes taking it political and action against minster is a possibility but too many IFA leaders have political ambition for this to be a runner.

The present targeting of supermarkets and fast food outlets is a good idea. Another idea might br to target the factory that is the bottom of the FJ price league every week and blockade it alone for the following wek however not sure if it is an option. As well the targeting of Tesco because of its public stance on nomad beef might help resolve this export issue

If you want to resort to lies to reinforce your argument, who am I to stop you, I've rubbished that statement in bold many times.
Another correction Ifa members don't want to forfeit their QA ''bonus''
We've been to Brussels twice on the competition issue, there's no point in you bringing it up over and over again, comp auth says no cartel

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 08:47AM

whelan2 wrote: »

joe Healy in todays farming indo " last weeks estimated kill of over 34,000 was not only 3140 head up on last year but also one of the largest kils since 2011"

Wait till we get a wet week,

Charliebull · 09-09-2014 09:39AM

i have to hand it to you rangler, you would have made a damn good full back, you dont go back from anything

sandydan · 09-09-2014 09:43AM

rangler1 wrote: »

If you want to resort to lies to reinforce your argument, who am I to stop you, I've rubbished that statement in bold many times.
Another correction Ifa members don't want to forfeit their QA ''bonus''

We've been to Brussels twice on the competition issue, there's no point in you bringing it up over and over again, comp auth says no cartel

for the life of me i can't see the "lies" in FPs thread, part in bold writing is fact. past member,albeit IFA Presidents or otherwise eg to name just a few ,TJ Maher ,Alan Dukes,an economist in NFA(as IFA was known then) have shown political ambition and have been elected to Dail Eireann on foot of their prominence in IFA and others will do so again IMO, and more luck to them, its "reward" for being active socially as well as in Agri sector, and its not confined to IFA it happens in media circles as well,Mairead McGuinnes is one outstanding example of someone showing an grasp of Agri affairs and being rewarded with seat in Brussels.
A man in insurance industry said to me once, IFA membership includes life insurance policy and membership fee or part o,f is available as discount off FBD farm insurance,so is not regarded as money lost in fees and in his opinion reason why so many join .
one post suggested inspector paid exclusively or in part by fees at factories. imo that is viable suggestion and used in other industries as well. For eg in Erin food processing factories an agent was present at all Tare sampling and took part in same and that was his sole job 7 days a week. this could be done on contract by specialized company on contract basis or any individual with appropriate training on inspection basis or permanent presence based on detailed unannounced fixed minimum number of inspections per quota slaughtered.

Abfg · 09-09-2014 09:46AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Trying to blockade Factory's or chill area's or prevent meat being transported is not workable. The reality this will only back up supply and cause issue dowm the road for finishers.

I think a mass withdrawal from the QA scheme is a goo idea but IFA is dead set against it. I think pressure on the Competition authority is another option. Getting them to stop processors owning or directly operating feedlots would help competition. Yes taking it political and action against minster is a possibility but too many IFA leaders have political ambition for this to be a runner.

The present targeting of supermarkets and fast food outlets is a good idea. Another idea might br to target the factory that is the bottom of the FJ price league every week and blockade it alone for the following wek however not sure if it is an option. As well the targeting of Tesco because of its public stance on nomad beef might help resolve this export issue

Totally have to agree with you about the IFA Larry has them all in his pocket, like you'd throw the dogs a scrap of meat off the table when your eating the dinner and they all run after it.
All farmers should instruct the factories and the marts to withdraw deducting the levy straight away and maybe then they'll come to their senses.
Then again some lads on here actually believe that their membership is going up????????
How could you be so out of touch with the feeling out there among farmers!!!!

Kevin the sheep · 09-09-2014 09:49AM

If everyone sold true mart send no cattle to factory would it force them to up price if they have to bid against each other for the stock you can always bring them home if not getting anofe hard to bring them back from factory

Farmer Pudsey · 09-09-2014 10:01AM

rangler1 wrote: »

If you want to resort to lies to reinforce your argument, who am I to stop you, I've rubbished that statement in bold many times.
Another correction Ifa members don't want to forfeit their QA ''bonus''
We've been to Brussels twice on the competition issue, there's no point in you bringing it up over and over again, comp auth says no cartel

I am not resorting to lies however it is shamefull the way you resort to the question the integrity of other posters and then get on your high horse when someone throws a curve ball at you.

The reality is that five the last six leaders all tryed to become involved in politics straight after there term in office. This leaves a level of distrust among some members.

Nobody wants toe QA gone howeven at present it is used as a penelty system on farmers and nees to be reoriented. The biggest issue with it is that it is being used at present to give an impression that we have a good average price for cattle when we have not. The grid as it is composed needs to be completely redone.

This may involve a tempory exit by farmers from the scheme until this is sorted. In reality all the IFA need do is get farmers to write a letter to Board Bia instructing them not to share any data withother bodies mainly the processors. This means that no farmer is out of QA but that the factory have to access the data through the farmer. It a pain for processors and put farmers in the driving seat while it is being restructured.. It is unliky that the processors would let this get that farm.

However the IFA is dead set against this as it will upset the minster, BB and the processors. Of course the CA will declare no cartel because it takes an effort to investigate. That is no reason not to put pressure over feedlots controlled by processors. If as one poster in another thread suggested that beef from these feedlots are way more expensive to produce that processor pay it suggest market manipulation.

As far as many I see and I am unsure of how other feel the IFA is against anything that will upset the status quo.

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 10:09AM

sandydan wrote: »

for the life of me i can't see the "lies" in FPs thread, part in bold writing is fact. past member,albeit IFA Presidents or otherwise eg to name just a few ,TJ Maher ,Alan Dukes,an economist in NFA(as IFA was known then) have shown political ambition and have been elected to Dail Eireann on foot of their prominence in IFA and others will do so again IMO, and more luck to them, its "reward" for being active socially as well as in Agri sector, and its not confined to IFA it happens in media circles as well,Mairead McGuinnes is one outstanding example of someone showing an grasp of Agri affairs and being rewarded with seat in Brussels.
A man in insurance industry said to me once, IFA membership includes life insurance policy and membership fee or part o,f is available as discount off FBD farm insurance,so is not regarded as money lost in fees and in his opinion reason why so many join .
one post suggested inspector paid exclusively or in part by fees at factories. imo that is viable suggestion and used in other industries as well. For eg in Erin food processing factories an agent was present at all Tare sampling and took part in same and that was his sole job 7 days a week. this could be done on contract by specialized company on contract basis or any individual with appropriate training on inspection basis or permanent presence based on detailed unannounced fixed minimum number of inspections per quota slaughtered.

All those names aren't running the show now, even if Eddie has any ambition that way he's not going to sway a committee of circa 50,
Of the 30 county chairmen, how many are going to be bothered politically

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 10:21AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I am not resorting to lies however it is shamefull the way you resort to the question the integrity of other posters and then get on your high horse when someone throws a curve ball at you.

The reality is that five the last six leaders all tryed to become involved in politics straight after there term in office. This leaves a level of distrust among some members.

Nobody wants toe QA gone howeven at present it is used as a penelty system on farmers and nees to be reoriented. The biggest issue with it is that it is being used at present to give an impression that we have a good average price for cattle when we have not. The grid as it is composed needs to be completely redone.

This may involve a tempory exit by farmers from the scheme until this is sorted. In reality all the IFA need do is get farmers to write a letter to Board Bia instructing them not to share any data withother bodies mainly the processors. This means that no farmer is out of QA but that the factory have to access the data through the farmer. It a pain for processors and put farmers in the driving seat while it is being restructured.. It is unliky that the processors would let this get that farm.

However the IFA is dead set against this as it will upset the minster, BB and the processors. Of course the CA will declare no cartel because it takes an effort to investigate. That is no reason not to put pressure over feedlots controlled by processors. If as one poster in another thread suggested that beef from these feedlots are way more expensive to produce that processor pay it suggest market manipulation.

As far as many I see and I am unsure of how other feel the IFA is against anything that will upset the status quo.

You wrote that in the present tense, too many leaders HAVE POLITICAL AMBITION
Our leaders are mainly President Deputy Pres, Executive Board and if you like even us, Nat Exec.

One of our commodity chairmen stated last week that we can only deal with proposals that come up from the counties, you think we should go after the feedlots and I don't, that's the way it'll stay until a resolution comes to the livestock committee, That's the way the organisation works
No matter how good the ideas are here there has to be stronger support for them

Farmer Pudsey · 09-09-2014 10:37AM

rangler1 wrote: »

You wrote that in the present tense, too many leaders HAVE POLITICAL AMBITION
Our leaders are mainly President Deputy Pres, Executive Board and if you like even us, Nat Exec.

One of our commodity chairmen stated last week that we can only deal with proposals that come up from the counties, you think we should go after the feedlots and I don't, that's the way it'll stay until a resolution comes to the livestock committee, That's the way the organisation works

You are splitting hairs over grammer we are not all as well educated as you. In any organisation there is only one leader, in gaelic it is toiseach and plural is taoisigh. The toiseach of the IFA is its presidant and the plural for leaders is taoisigh or faromers presidants.

As well will Eddie follow the previous four trying to getting involved, will the lad that follows him continue along the same route. So we can use it in the presence tence as well.

Did a resolution have to come from so called county branches to chain up trollys. Did a county resolution have to be send on to Henry and Eddie to make sure it was there pictures were taken chaining trollys. The reasons you have leaders is to lead not to be lead by the nose to do what is necessary. The reality is the IFA will never do anything that will directly effect the big boys usless it is dragged screaming to do same.

PatrickJoseph · 09-09-2014 10:50AM

Heard on radio this morning that ICSA have a protest outside ABP in Bandon this morning. Important that we support all efforts by all farmers

Nettleman · 09-09-2014 11:05AM

Hello, have been following beef threads for past few weeks, and decided to join and contribute to the debate. I am beef farmer, agri cert.

On IFA, I was a member until 2013, and stopped as I have lost all confidence in them. I also never seen a set of accounts...Ranger, can you advise why IFA don't publish their annual accounts for entire organisation?. Branch accounts are of no value, accounts for the national organisation? Whats their cash balance, and why would they not consider automatic refunds of EIF levy to all farmers who killed cattle since the crisis began, or start a moratorium on deductions until crisis ends, that way, they have a financial incentive to get things sorted.
I am QA assured, and am in support of QA withdrawl, and have informed BB of my intentions to withdraw, if they do not take farmer concerns seriously. They got 500m from roundtable, and I cant see that this money is doing anything for the crisis. I read the presentatiins given at the last roundtable, and if these were prepared by the best brains in the business, well, enough said. So with my bug bears outa the way, here is my idea. Cant post urls so google this "NORGES SILDESALGSLAG". click map on top left of home page.

Basically this is a fisherman auction website, supported by Norweigan law, Fishermen upload details of their catch, tonnage, species etc, and processors from various countries bid for the fish. Can Irish Beef farmers route all their finished cattle through a similiar channell, and re-unite in numbers. Factories have broken the strength of farmer organisations over the year, and we need to regain some degree of control.
Factories only get cattle by bidding. No more agents snooping around your farm collecting intel on your business.
Farmer uploads a pic of side and rear of best, approx. weight, age, sex, breed, QA status etc. Very strict safeguards would be needed obviously. So what you think?

I said · 09-09-2014 12:10PM

whelan2 wrote: »

joe Healy in todays farming indo " last weeks estimated kill of over 34,000 was not only 3140 head up on last year but also one of the largest kils since 2011"

I'm driving the country every other day where are these cattle?

Farmer Pudsey · 09-09-2014 12:34PM

I said wrote: »

I'm driving the country every other day where are these cattle?

It is called organised panic. Lots of lads killing cattle because of date of birth.

I said · 09-09-2014 12:43PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is called organised panic. Lots of lads killing cattle because of date of birth.

I doubt that cattle are scarce this year all I'm hearing is there is no cattle in the country

RightTurnClyde · 09-09-2014 12:58PM

There's bound to be a scarcity of beef looming, remember all those dead calves stockpiled in the knackerys yards in spring 2012, gone, and then there's a bunch of bullocks missing, already killed as bull beef, gone. Cull dairy cows are going to be scarce compared with the last 2 or 3 years. Remember it only takes a few % either way to turn a feast into a famine.
Now weither there is a scarcity of markets for the beef...that's another matter..

whelan2 · 09-09-2014 01:02PM

I said wrote: »

I'm driving the country every other day where are these cattle?

they're hiding in the ditches:) no seriously my parents went down the country last week and the one thing my dad said when they came back was there's alot less cattle around than there used to be.

sandydan · 09-09-2014 01:49PM

rangler1 wrote: »

All those names aren't running the show now, even if Eddie has any ambition that way he's not going to sway a committee of circa 50,
Of the 30 county chairmen, how many are going to be bothered politically

whether he has or not, is irrelevant imo and he is not going to tell me about it is he, and as i said its irrelevant imo. the names i used are in past,fair enough but it was pattern that was followed and will be.
past patterns is all we have to go by and is usually an indication of what may happen in future provided opportunity presents itself to a person who is capable of availing of it.
anyway no matter what organisation you refer to members will criticize those at top, unions ,GAA, FAI,and a multitude of others including political parties. those at top just stand back and let those down the line take flak and appear when publicity shines on them in a opportunistic fashion regardless of whether their actions impacted well or badly on those entrusting them in position.

as an opener i asked where were lies in Farmer Pudsey's remarks in post he submitted.
my own opinion on IFA is its now top heavy as opposed to old NFA and in danger of becoming irrelevant in farming circles as its constantly seen fighting rearguard actions instead of being in fighting farmers cause from beginning.

sandydan · 09-09-2014 02:03PM

rangler1 wrote: »

All those names aren't running the show now, even if Eddie has any ambition that way he's not going to sway a committee of circa 50,
Of the 30 county chairmen, how many are going to be bothered politically

that issue aside what about my "copy of Erin Foods" ( think it was Beet and Vegetable Growers a section of some organisation supervised- maybe wrong -) type of payment(or partly) of dedicated staff checking carcass grading equipment suggestion.

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 02:20PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You are splitting hairs over grammer we are not all as well educated as you. In any organisation there is only one leader, in gaelic it is toiseach and plural is taoisigh. The toiseach of the IFA is its presidant and the plural for leaders is taoisigh or faromers presidants.

As well will Eddie follow the previous four trying to getting involved, will the lad that follows him continue along the same route. So we can use it in the presence tence as well.

Did a resolution have to come from so called county branches to chain up trollys. Did a county resolution have to be send on to Henry and Eddie to make sure it was there pictures were taken chaining trollys. The reasons you have leaders is to lead not to be lead by the nose to do what is necessary. The reality is the IFA will never do anything that will directly effect the big boys usless it is dragged screaming to do same.

Protests wouldn't be anything to do with policy, they would be as a result of farmers complaining we're not ''doing anything''.
Just stressing that if you don't want to get involved don't expect me to do messenger
Some of us are pushed into positions, and then there's people that think they can abuse and ridicule us and then have the cheek to wonder why we can't be bothered.....
Ah well back to my sheep, at least they're worth the bother

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 02:25PM

sandydan wrote: »

that issue aside what about my "copy of Erin Foods" ( think it was Beet and Vegetable Growers a section of some organisation supervised- maybe wrong -) type of payment(or partly) of dedicated staff checking carcass grading equipment suggestion.

No matter who we'd put in there they'd be in the factories pocket,
The department are there, and I'm sure theres some check done on the scales and grading daily, you need to ask our livestock guys to get information

coolshannagh28 · 09-09-2014 03:22PM

Abfg makes a lot of very relevant points amid the bluster of his posts and Rangler while an able advocate does have a default position while under pressure that is unsettling and detrimental to his general argument

Nettleman · 09-09-2014 03:50PM

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Abfg makes a lot of very relevant points amid the bluster of his posts and Rangler while an able advocate does have a default position while under pressure that is unsettling and detrimental to his general argument

HE hasn't yet come back on my question about how much cash the IFA are sitting on though.....they should publish full accounts and show that financial transparency is something only the factories and retailers choose to conceal

Username John · 09-09-2014 04:06PM

I see the ICSA are protesting outside AIBP in Bandon today.

http://www.agriland.ie/news/key-issues-must-resolved-talks-farmers-meat-industry/#

What do people think?
A lot of posters on here have said this is the route they would be in favour of I think.
Anyone know anything about it?

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 05:40PM

Nettleman wrote: »

HE hasn't yet come back on my question about how much cash the IFA are sitting on though.....they should publish full accounts and show that financial transparency is something only the factories and retailers choose to conceal

I don't think I'm in that position to answer that, but money is invested wisely, I wish mine was as well invested, I think but for other incomes, IFA wouldn't be breaking even, there's an internal audit committee as well as real auditors.
It'll cost the same to run the organisation when there's 40000 members( no of farmers reducing all the time) as it does now at 90000, so it was decided to put money aside annually since Tom parlon was national treasurer ,

sandydan · 09-09-2014 06:44PM

rangler1 wrote: »

No matter who we'd put in there they'd be in the factories pocket,
The department are there, and I'm sure theres some check done on the scales and grading daily, you need to ask our livestock guys to get information

im surprised to read you printing that existing people are in factories pockets. if set up properly imo to set standard somewhat similar to milk testing equipment in laboratories and contract for testing on rotational basis with different contractors in each factory, id say room for that type shinanigans would be strictly limited if dismissal from contract and compensating carcasses owners was penalty for incorrect scrutiny if following complaint from producer an unprofessional scrutiny was discovered. the carcass weight penalty is different story and needs to be set by Dept or Eu order in my opinion anyway,not arbitrarily where carcass providing prime steak cuts is subject to penalty at not less than 6 weeks notice (just for example) with upper limits being notified by min 6 month period.

rangler1 · 09-09-2014 07:00PM

sandydan wrote: »

im surprised to read you printing that existing people are in factories pockets. if set up properly imo to set standard somewhat similar to milk testing equipment in laboratories and contract for testing on rotational basis with different contractors in each factory, id say room for that type shinanigans would be strictly limited if dismissal from contract and compensating carcasses owners was penalty for incorrect scrutiny if following complaint from producer an unprofessional scrutiny was discovered. the carcass weight penalty is different story and needs to be set by Dept or Eu order in my opinion anyway,not arbitrarily where carcass providing prime steak cuts is subject to penalty at not less than 6 weeks notice (just for example) with upper limits being notified by min 6 month period.

sure I might as well let on I agree with those that know it all, dept ag is supposed to be looking after grading, trim, etc, obviously you don't trust them......imagine if IFA put in someone....can't see it happening

sandydan · 09-09-2014 08:05PM

rangler1 wrote: »

sure I might as well let on I agree with those that know it all, dept ag is supposed to be looking after grading, trim, etc, obviously you don't trust them......imagine if IFA put in someone....can't see it happening

well if they pushed for it a sharp decline in complaints should ensue imo. factories and Dept don't want their abilities questioned but imo it should be done to EU standards. was often present in processing plants not meat factories when EU based supermarkets inspected plant and they knew their stuff to last detail , inspections in 2 cases were unannounced as was normal practice, i was delivering to plant on both occasions and they knew what i was checking in and condition of truck was noted as well.they checked all details as their jobs depended on being thorough.i also worked in plant where Sainsbury were main buyer and as normal practice when plant was working everything was inspected, hygiene and quality and adhering to guidelines were paramount. you are right i don't trust dept of anything in high profile industries.

Beef in Crisis

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