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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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Comments

  • Moderators Posts: 52,025 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    You made the claim, JC. It's your responsibility to back it up or withdraw the claim. Choice is yours.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    You made the claim, JC. It's your responsibility to back it up or withdraw the claim. Choice is yours.
    Which claim?


  • Moderators Posts: 52,025 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Which claim?
    that CFSI is a scientific Law for a start. Do you have any links to support the claim?`

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    ... because Creation Science traces its scientific pedigree right back to the 'founding fathers' of Modern Science ... and it isn't a group of 'bible-bashing back-woods' people as is often portrayed in the popular media.

    So does Astrology.
    J C wrote: »
    ... We're dealing in objectively verifiable fact here (in relation to eminent conventionally qualified Creation Scientists) ... so it doesn't really matter where the list/quote comes from.

    Thanks.

    As also do Creation Scientists.:)
    ... but we do lack faith in Spontaneous Evolution ... I guess we're therefore 'Evolutionary Atheists' (if that's not a contradiction in terms) !!!:eek:

    I looked at the list of scientists and I decided the easiest approach was to use Rational Wiki,
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/CMI_list_of_scientists_alive_today_who_accept_the_biblical_account_of_creation
    here are three excerpts.

    1.Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist Works in a field completely unrelated to the subject at hand. Is the Chair in Psychology at Wichita State University. Frequent lecturer for AIG, but lectures only on the history of the movement, the history of "Darwinian" research and philosophical questions about why humans search for unanswerable answers. Rejects any scientific discussions at his lectures.

    7.Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist Working with an obsolete model of the earth's core, Dr. Barnes asserted that the earth's magnetic field is decaying exponentially, ignoring empirical evidence to the contrary. Working under these erroneous assertions, he somehow managed to arrive at his predetermined conclusions. Also a firm denier of relativity.

    28.Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist "If the miraculous is rejected for early Genesis, then on what basis can it be accepted for the resurrection?" In other words, just believe Creationism, because you wouldn't want your entire worldview crashing down on you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    It doesn't matter ... I don't want to know your qualifications ... and I'm certainly not going to identify mine.

    This is a discussion forum ... not a scientific forum where my (obvious) eminence as a scientist might be germane.

    I haven't made any claims as to my qualifications, you on the other hand have made a factually verifiable claim which you refuse to back up. If we can't trust you on this claim why should we on any other? If you are not willing to back up your claim then you should withdraw it. If you are willing to do neither then I claim you are a liar.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88698321&postcount=312


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,246 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    J C wrote: »
    That wasn't what I said ... the question posed to me was focussed on CFSI and whether rocks or water contain CFSI.
    I state that in and of themselves, water and rocks didn't contain CFSI - but a carved rock that has become a tombstone, for example, would contain some CFSI.

    You mentioned rocks the first time, too, but never addressed water. Why not?

    Did your fella design bananas? If he did, he designed them badly, as humankind had to domesticate them before they became palatable. Also, why are they indigenous to SE Asia, and can only grow in the tropics? Why weren't they designed to grow anywhere people lived?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    obplayer wrote: »
    So does Astrology.
    None of the 'Founding Fathers' of Modern Science were Astrologers, as far as I know ... but they were practically all Creationists.

    I will answer the remainder of your post in blue below (with your post in black):-

    I looked at the list of scientists and I decided the easiest approach was to use Rational Wiki,
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/CMI_list_of_scientists_alive_today_who_accept_the_biblical_account_of_creation
    here are three excerpts.

    1.Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist Works in a field completely unrelated to the subject at hand. Is the Chair in Psychology at Wichita State University. Frequent lecturer for AIG, but lectures only on the history of the movement, the history of "Darwinian" research and philosophical questions about why humans search for unanswerable answers. Rejects any scientific discussions at his lectures.
    Dr Ackerman is an eminently qualified conventional Psychologist with a Chair at a secular conventional University who lectures on Creation Science topics in line with his qualifications such as the psychological explanations for why Humans search for answers in relation to their origins.

    7.Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist Working with an obsolete model of the earth's core, Dr. Barnes asserted that the earth's magnetic field is decaying exponentially, ignoring empirical evidence to the contrary. Working under these erroneous assertions, he somehow managed to arrive at his predetermined conclusions. Also a firm denier of relativity.

    The Earth's magnetic field is indeed decaying ... ten times faster then conventional science used to think. Dr Barnes is now dead and carried out his research during from the 1930s to the 1980s ... and is now being proven to be right!!!
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2686070/Earths-magnetic-field-weakening-10-times-faster-thought-Western-Hemisphere.html

    Dr Barnes was eminently and conventionally qualified:-
    ... and here is his academic record:-

    http://creationwiki.org/Thomas_Barnes

    28.Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist "If the miraculous is rejected for early Genesis, then on what basis can it be accepted for the resurrection?" In other words, just believe Creationism, because you wouldn't want your entire worldview crashing down on you.
    ... like happened to an Evolutionist who challenged Dr Chittick at a conference :-
    Quote Dr Chittick :-
    "One of the things I ask these people who challenge us is—'Have you ever seen one single example, any example, of where information spontaneously arises?' In fact, I was at a conference one weekend and a graduate student in science came up and challenged me. He said, 'Well, there are examples where inflow of energy causes increase in information'. He said, 'There has to be'. And so my response to him was, 'Show me one!' He said, 'All right, I'll go find one'. That was on a Thursday afternoon, and he disappeared, and he was gone for about 24 hours. The next day he came back with red eyes and very tired looking. He said, 'I have been to the library studying, and you're right, there are no cases'."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    ... because Creation Science traces its scientific pedigree right back to the 'founding fathers' of Modern Science ... and it isn't a group of 'bible-bashing back-woods' people as is often portrayed in the popular media.

    We're dealing in objectively verifiable fact here (in relation to eminent conventionally qualified Creation Scientists) ... so it doesn't really matter where the list/quote comes from.

    Thanks.

    As also do Creation Scientists.:)
    ... but we do lack faith in Spontaneous Evolution ... I guess we're therefore 'Evolutionary Atheists' (if that's not a contradiction in terms) !!!:eek:

    Also check this previous post.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57847942&postcount=13458


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    J C wrote: »
    None of the 'Founding Fathers' of Modern Science were Astrologers, as far as I know ... but they were practically all Creationists.

    I will answer the remainder of your post in blue below (with your post in black):-

    I looked at the list of scientists and I decided the easiest approach was to use Rational Wiki,
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/CMI_list_of_scientists_alive_today_who_accept_the_biblical_account_of_creation
    here are three excerpts.

    1.Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist Works in a field completely unrelated to the subject at hand. Is the Chair in Psychology at Wichita State University. Frequent lecturer for AIG, but lectures only on the history of the movement, the history of "Darwinian" research and philosophical questions about why humans search for unanswerable answers. Rejects any scientific discussions at his lectures.
    Dr Ackerman is an eminently qualified conventional Psychologist with a Chair at a secular conventional University who lectures on Creation Science topics in line with his qualifications such as the psychological explanations for why Humans search for answers in relation to their origins.

    7.Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist Working with an obsolete model of the earth's core, Dr. Barnes asserted that the earth's magnetic field is decaying exponentially, ignoring empirical evidence to the contrary. Working under these erroneous assertions, he somehow managed to arrive at his predetermined conclusions. Also a firm denier of relativity.

    The Earth's magnetic field is indeed decaying ... ten times faster then conventional science used to think. Dr Barnes is now dead and carried out his research during from the 1930s to the 1980s ... and is now being proven to be right!!!
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2686070/Earths-magnetic-field-weakening-10-times-faster-thought-Western-Hemisphere.html

    Dr Barnes was eminently and conventionally qualified:-
    ... and here is his academic record:-

    http://creationwiki.org/Thomas_Barnes

    28.Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist "If the miraculous is rejected for early Genesis, then on what basis can it be accepted for the resurrection?" In other words, just believe Creationism, because you wouldn't want your entire worldview crashing down on you.
    ... like happened to an Evolutionist who challenged Dr Chittick at a conference :-
    Quote Dr Chittick :-
    "One of the things I ask these people who challenge us is—'Have you ever seen one single example, any example, of where information spontaneously arises?' In fact, I was at a conference one weekend and a graduate student in science came up and challenged me. He said, 'Well, there are examples where inflow of energy causes increase in information'. He said, 'There has to be'. And so my response to him was, 'Show me one!' He said, 'All right, I'll go find one'. That was on a Thursday afternoon, and he disappeared, and he was gone for about 24 hours. The next day he came back with red eyes and very tired looking. He said, 'I have been to the library studying, and you're right, there are no cases'."

    At this point I am going to leave it to people reading these posts. They have the information and links...except of course for evidence of you being a scientist. Where is it?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C, is there a reason why you're refusing to continue our discussion? You were claiming that it's impossible for a random change to produce an increase in information quality, but you haven't backed up that rather bizarre claim.

    Also, what is the SI unit for CFSI?


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »
    None of the 'Founding Fathers' of Modern Science were Astrologers, as far as I know ... but they were practically all Creationists.
    Cept for folks like these:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe
    Tycho's duties included preparing astrological charts and predictions for his patrons on events such as births, weather forecasting, and astrological interpretations of significant astronomical events, such as the supernova of 1572 (sometimes called Tycho's supernova) and the Great Comet of 1577.[43]
    ....

    Tycho considered astrology to be a subject of great importance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei
    His multiple interests included the study of astrology, which at the time was a discipline tied to the studies of mathematics and astronomy.[27]

    Not to mention how Issac Newton was also into alchemy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    King Mob wrote: »
    Cept for folks like these:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei



    Not to mention how Issac Newton was also into alchemy.

    How dare your display a knowledge of the past!
    And I am deeply disgusted that you would be so crass as to provide links to further reading.
    The correct action would have been to have made a random claim like "Jesus was clearly and astrologer because everyone knows Capricorn is the best star sign".

    J C, does the following sequence of numbers contain CFSI or CFI or whatever you are choosing to call it now?
    8372978049 951059731732816096318595024459455346908302642522308253344685035261931188171010 
    How would you go abou testing it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    kiffer wrote: »
    How dare your display a knowledge of the past!
    And I am deeply disgusted that you would be so crass as to provide links to further reading.
    The correct action would have been to have made a random claim like "Jesus was clearly and astrologer because everyone knows Capricorn is the best star sign".
    The difference between modern Astrologers and modern Creation Scientists is that Creation Scientists have an unbroken scientific linkage back to the 'Founding Fathers' of Modern Science ... and they are conventional scientists using conventional scientific methods to evaluate the physical evidence for creation ...
    ... and astrologists are ... eh ... em Astrologists!!:)
    kiffer wrote: »
    J C, does the following sequence of numbers contain CFSI or CFI or whatever you are choosing to call it now?
    8372978049 951059731732816096318595024459455346908302642522308253344685035261931188171010 
    How would you go abou testing it?
    CFSI is found in artefacts ... and if testing an artefact for the presence of CFSI ... it's Complexity, Functionality and Specificity must be objectively established, in order to deem it to be CFSI.

    In the case of your sequence of numbers, they are objectively Complex and Information. The issue to be established is whether they are Functional and Specified. If they are describing an aspect of some artefact, their Functionality would need to be established i.e. are they describing a functional process or phenomenon - and their Specificity would also need to be established by making random changes to the sequence and observing whether this eliminates it's functionality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    J C, is there a reason why you're refusing to continue our discussion? You were claiming that it's impossible for a random change to produce an increase in information quality, but you haven't backed up that rather bizarre claim.
    Both intuitively and observantly, random changes to Complex Functional Specified information always reduce the information quality, often to the point of catastrophe and total failure of the particular system.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Also, what is the SI unit for CFSI?
    CFSI is measured as probability ... with the definitive presence of CFSI being established, where probabilities in excess of the Universal Probability Bound of 10^-150 are detected. In practice, all probabilities below 10^-100 are sufficient to conclude that CFSI is present.


  • Moderators Posts: 52,025 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    CFSI is a measurement of probability but can also be described as "definitive presence"? :confused:

    So it's not a property of an organism but rather someone saying, "it's highly unlikely that man evolved from ape".

    Dembinski wasn't able to prove the math. The evidence of that is science still accept evolution as the best explanation for diversity of life on Earth.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Could you show us the mathematical proof of how random changes always reduce the quality? And also the mathematical definition of quality?

    Intuitively it doesn't make sense to say it would always reduce 'quality'. You could have two very similar 'artifacts' with one having a slightly higher 'quality' that would differ bar only slight changes in 'information'. Given enough chances, what's to stop a random change bridging the two?

    I'm emphasising words that I don't have a clue of the definition, and honestly am slightly suspicious, of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    CFSI is a measurement of probability but can also be described as "definitive presence"? :confused:
    Where probabilities below 10^-100 are established for a particular system, it can be definitively concluded that it is CFSI that could only be produced by an ultimate input of intelligence.

    We rarely use the 10^-100 test as even relatively simple biological processes have probabilities well below the Universal Probability Bound of 10^-150.
    This is calculated by multiplying the number of elementary particles in the Universe, the maximum possible number of elementary particle transitions (the inverse of the Planck time) per second, and the number of seconds in a billion times the current (Conventional) age of the Universe i.e. 13.798×10^9 years or 4.354×10^17 seconds, within the Lambda-CDM concordance model.
    Please note that Intelligent Design Advocates are mostly 'long age' i.e. billions of year old Universe adherents.
    SW wrote: »
    So it's not a property of an organism but rather someone saying, "it's highly unlikely that man evolved from ape".
    It is based on a repeatably observable (i.e. scientifically amenable) property of an organism ... and it allows definitive conclusions that, for example, "it is impossible that man evolved from a less genetically sophisticated ancestor". Just like there is increasing entropy in the physical universe (and it can only be locally reversed via an input of energy (that is directed by a processes that is ultimately intelligently designed) there is also increasing entropy in the virtual world of information and its carriers ... and again this can only be locally reversed via an input of CFSI, that is ultimately produced by an intelligence, including such inputs by Humans.
    SW wrote: »
    Dembinski wasn't able to prove the math. The evidence of that is science still accept evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.
    Dr Dembski and many others have proven the logic and the math ... and while many Evolutionists still accept evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth ... many other Evolutionists also privately accept that it is not fit for purpose as an explanation for anything except Natural and Sexual Selection (of pre-existing CFSI diversity).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    J C wrote: »
    many Evolutionists also privately accept that it is not fit for purpose as an explanation for anything except Natural and Sexual Selection (of pre-existing CFSI diversity) in action.
    If they only accept it privately how do you know that many do?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Who revived this thread? Please present yourself to the mod office for a banning?
    Thanks.

    :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    TheChizler wrote: »
    If they only accept it privately how do you know that many do?
    ... by extrapolating from the number who privately confess their doubts to me.:)


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  • Moderators Posts: 52,025 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Where it establishes probabilities in excess of 10^-100 for a particular system it can be definitively concluded that it is CFSI that could only be produced by an ultimate input of intelligence.
    The above makes no sense. CFSI ( a probability factor) determines that it is CFSI (a probability factor???) that could only be produced by a input from an intelligence??

    If the concept Dembinski suggests is correct then how does modern medicine operate frequently is a manner that should be impossible? How do biologists observe organisms changing a fashion in keeping with evolution?
    We rarely use the 10^-100 test as even relatively simple biological processes have probabilities well below the Universal Probability Bound of 10^-150.
    This is calculated by by multiplying the number of elementary particles in the Universe, the maximum possible number of elementary particle transitions (the inverse of the Planck time) per second, and the number of seconds in a billion times the current (Conventional) age of the Universe i.e. 13.798×10^9 years or 4.354×10^17 seconds, within the Lambda-CDM concordance model.
    What does the above mean in lay-mans terms? How does this support the existence of God?
    It is based on a repeatably observable (i.e. scientifically amenable) property of an organism ... and it allows definitive conclusions that, for example, "it is impossible that man evolved from a less genetically sophisticated ancestor". Just like there is increasing entropy in the physical universe (and it can only be locally reversed via an input of energy (that is directed by a processes that is ultimately intelligently designed) there is also increasing entropy in the virtual world of information and its carriers ... and again this can only be locally reversed via an input of CFSI, that is ultimately produced by an intelligence, including such inputs by Humans.
    If evolution is impossible then why does scientific research support it? Science certainly doesn't accept the account in Genesis as the explanation for the origin of humankind.
    Dr Dembski and many others have proven the logic and the math ... and while many Evolutionists still accept evolution as the best explanation for diversity of life on Earth ... many other Evolutionists also privately accept that it is not fit for purpose as an explanation for anything except Natural and Sexual Selection (of pre-existing CFSI diversity).
    Nobody has proven what Dembinski claimed as he would have won a nobel prize for science and/or maths.

    But feel free to offer some links to scientific journals that have reviewed and confirmed Dembinskis claims.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Moderators Posts: 52,025 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... by extrapolating from the number who privately confess their doubts to me.:)

    so evolutionists are secretly telling you that it's all bunk, yet they continue to work in the field of evolution and produce work that supports the lie that is evolution? :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Who revived this thread? Please present yourself to the mod office for a banning?
    Thanks.

    :pac:

    J'accuse Gintonious!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    J C wrote: »
    ... by extrapolating from the number who privately confess their doubts to me.:)

    JC the voices in your head are not real people.

    How many times do we have to tell you this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    J'accuse Gintonious!

    A snitch eh?
    Banned.:pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by J C
    ... by extrapolating from the number who privately confess their doubts to me.

    SW
    so evolutionists are secretly telling you that it's all bunk, yet they continue to work in the field of evolution and produce work that supports the lie that is evolution? :confused:
    They are not just privately telling me ... but many are expressing their doubts openly and publicly:-

    Here are just a few quotes openly expressing doubts about both Darwin and Spontaneous Evolution ... and there are literally thousands more of them:-:)

    Barry Gale Science Historian at Darwin College, Cambridge University

    "Though often brilliantly and ingeniously composed, his (Darwin's) argument was based, in many instances, on new and often unsubstantiated hypotheses, sometimes fuzzy analogies and metaphors, the repudiation of competing explanations, and a frequent plea to complexity and general ignorance, rather than compelling, clearly incontrovertible evidence in its own support; and it is clear that Darwin knew this." Evolution Without Evidence (1982) p.101


    Henry Gee (b. 1962) Senior Editor of Nature

    "The intervals of time that separate fossils are so huge that we cannot say anything definite about their possible connection through ancestry and descent." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p. 23


    "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.116-7

    "All the evidence for the hominid lineage between about 10 and 5 million years ago -- several thousand generations of living creatures -- can be fitted into a small box." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.202

    "Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether." Nature July 12 2001 p. 131


    Stephen Jay Gould (1941 – 2002) Former Professor of Zoology and Geology at Harvard University

    "The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best -- and therefore never scrutinize or question. Ask anyone to name the most familiar of all evolutionary series and you will almost surely receive, as an answer: horses, of course...Modern horses are not only depleted relative to horses of the past; on a larger scale, all major lineages of the Perissodactyla (the larger mammalian group that includes horses) are pitiful remnants of former copious success. Modern horses, in other words, are failures within a failure -- about the worst possible exemplars of evolutionary progress, whatever such a term might mean." Full House (1996) p. 57-71

    "The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution." “Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?” Paleobiology January 1980 p.127

    "Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study." The Panda's Thumb 1980 pp.180-2


    ... and here are further words of wisdom ... and scientific authority on the complex functional specificity of genetic information from a former Atheist and Evolutionist:-
    John C Sanford (b.1950)

    "Most DNA sequences are poly-functional and so must also be poly-constrained. This means that DNA sequences have meaning on several different levels (poly-functional) and each level of meaning limits possible future change (poly-constrained). For example, imagine a sentence which has a very specific message in its normal form but with an equally coherent message when read backwards. Now let's suppose that it also has a third message when reading every other letter, and a forth message when a simple encryption program is used to translate it. Such a message would be poly-functional and poly-constrained. We know that misspellings in a normal sentence will not normally improve the message, but at least this would be possible. However, a poly-constrained message is fascinating, in that it cannot be improved. It can only degenerate. Any misspellings which might possible improve the normal sentence will be disruptive to the other levels of information. Any change at all will diminish total information with absolute certainty.

    There is abundant evidence that most DNA sequences are poly-functional, and are, therefore, poly-constrained. This fact has been extensively demonstrated by Trifonov (1989). For example, most human coding sequences encode for two different RNAs that read in opposite directions (i.e., both DNA strands are transcribed Yelin et al., 2003). Some sequences encode for different proteins, depending on where translation is initiated and where the reading frame begins (i.e., read-through proteins). Some sequences encode for different proteins based upon alternate mRNA splicing. Some sequences serve multiple functions simultaneously (i.e., as a protein-coding sequence and as an internal transcriptional promoter). Some sequences encode for both a protein coding region and a protein-binding region. All elements and origins of replication can be found within functional promoters and within exons. Basically all DNA sequences are constrained by isochore requirements (regional GC content), “word” content (species-specific profiles of di-, tri- and tetra-nucleotide frequencies), and nucleosome binding sites (because all DNA must condense). Selective condensation is clearly implicated in gene regulation and selective nucleosome binding is controlled by specific DNA sequence patterns that must permeate the entire genome. Lastly, probably all sequences also affect general spacing and DNA folding/architecture, which is clearly sequence dependent. To explain the incredible amount of information which must somehow be packed into the genome (given the extreme complexity of life), we really have to assume that there are even higher levels of organization and information encrypted within the genome. For example, we know there is another whole level of organization at the epigenetic level (Gibbs, 2003). There also appears to be extensive, sequence-dependent, three-dimensional organization within chromosomes and with the whole nucleus (Manuelidis, 1990; Gardiner, 1995; Flam, 1994). Trifonov (1989) has shown that probably all DNA sequences in the genome encrypt multiple codes (up to 12)."
    Genetic Entropy 2008 p.131-2

    "The poly-constrained nature of DNA serves as strong evidence that higher genomes cannot evolve via mutation/selection except on a trivial level. " Genetic Entropy 2008 p.133


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    JC the voices in your head are not real people.

    How many times do we have to tell you this?
    The quotes in my last post above, are from real people ... not disembodied voices in either your head, or mine.:)


  • Moderators Posts: 52,025 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    They are not just privately telling me ... but many are expressing their doubts openly and publicly:-

    Here are just a few quotes openly expressing doubts about both Darwin and Spontaneous Evolution ... and there are literally thousands more of them:-:)

    Barry Gale Science Historian at Darwin College, Cambridge University

    "Though often brilliantly and ingeniously composed, his (Darwin's) argument was based, in many instances, on new and often unsubstantiated hypotheses, sometimes fuzzy analogies and metaphors, the repudiation of competing explanations, and a frequent plea to complexity and general ignorance, rather than compelling, clearly incontrovertible evidence in its own support; and it is clear that Darwin knew this." Evolution Without Evidence (1982) p.101
    The book is about Darwin proposing evolution without the evidence currently available. It examines how difficult it must have been to develop the theory with what he had available back then. It is not a book stating that evolution is bunk. So you misunderstood the book or mispresented what it states. Anyways, it doesn't support your claim.
    Henry Gee (b. 1962) Senior Editor of Nature

    "The intervals of time that separate fossils are so huge that we cannot say anything definite about their possible connection through ancestry and descent." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p. 23

    "To take a line of fossils and claim that they represent a lineage is not a scientific hypothesis that can be tested, but an assertion that carries the same validity as a bedtime story -- amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.116-7

    "All the evidence for the hominid lineage between about 10 and 5 million years ago -- several thousand generations of living creatures -- can be fitted into a small box." In Search of Deep Time (2001) p.202
    The book is not saying evolution is bunk.
    In the place of traditional biology, Gee offers the field of cladistics, "a way of looking at the world in terms of the pattern that evolution creates, rather than the process that creates the pattern."
    That's 0 for 2 btw.
    "Fossil evidence of human evolutionary history is fragmentary and open to various interpretations. Fossil evidence of chimpanzee evolution is absent altogether." Nature July 12 2001 p. 131
    Don't have access to that article so can't determine the context of the quote.
    Stephen Jay Gould (1941 – 2002) Former Professor of Zoology and Geology at Harvard University

    "The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best -- and therefore never scrutinize or question. Ask anyone to name the most familiar of all evolutionary series and you will almost surely receive, as an answer: horses, of course...Modern horses are not only depleted relative to horses of the past; on a larger scale, all major lineages of the Perissodactyla (the larger mammalian group that includes horses) are pitiful remnants of former copious success. Modern horses, in other words, are failures within a failure -- about the worst possible exemplars of evolutionary progress, whatever such a term might mean." Full House (1996) p. 57-71

    "The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution." “Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?” Paleobiology January 1980 p.127
    Neither of these suggest evolution is bunk. Especially considering one article is called "is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?". Hardly saying it's nonsense.
    "Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study." The Panda's Thumb 1980 pp.180-2
    Also doesn't support your claim. Evolution is a slow process.
    ... and here are further words of wisdom ... and scientific authority on the complex functional specificity of genetic information from a former Atheist and Evolutionist:-
    John C Sanford (b.1950)

    "Most DNA sequences are poly-functional and so must also be poly-constrained. This means that DNA sequences have meaning on several different levels (poly-functional) and each level of meaning limits possible future change (poly-constrained). For example, imagine a sentence which has a very specific message in its normal form but with an equally coherent message when read backwards. Now let's suppose that it also has a third message when reading every other letter, and a forth message when a simple encryption program is used to translate it. Such a message would be poly-functional and poly-constrained. We know that misspellings in a normal sentence will not normally improve the message, but at least this would be possible. However, a poly-constrained message is fascinating, in that it cannot be improved. It can only degenerate. Any misspellings which might possible improve the normal sentence will be disruptive to the other levels of information. Any change at all will diminish total information with absolute certainty.

    There is abundant evidence that most DNA sequences are poly-functional, and are, therefore, poly-constrained. This fact has been extensively demonstrated by Trifonov (1989). For example, most human coding sequences encode for two different RNAs that read in opposite directions (i.e., both DNA strands are transcribed Yelin et al., 2003). Some sequences encode for different proteins, depending on where translation is initiated and where the reading frame begins (i.e., read-through proteins). Some sequences encode for different proteins based upon alternate mRNA splicing. Some sequences serve multiple functions simultaneously (i.e., as a protein-coding sequence and as an internal transcriptional promoter). Some sequences encode for both a protein coding region and a protein-binding region. All elements and origins of replication can be found within functional promoters and within exons. Basically all DNA sequences are constrained by isochore requirements (regional GC content), “word” content (species-specific profiles of di-, tri- and tetra-nucleotide frequencies), and nucleosome binding sites (because all DNA must condense). Selective condensation is clearly implicated in gene regulation and selective nucleosome binding is controlled by specific DNA sequence patterns that must permeate the entire genome. Lastly, probably all sequences also affect general spacing and DNA folding/architecture, which is clearly sequence dependent. To explain the incredible amount of information which must somehow be packed into the genome (given the extreme complexity of life), we really have to assume that there are even higher levels of organization and information encrypted within the genome. For example, we know there is another whole level of organization at the epigenetic level (Gibbs, 2003). There also appears to be extensive, sequence-dependent, three-dimensional organization within chromosomes and with the whole nucleus (Manuelidis, 1990; Gardiner, 1995; Flam, 1994). Trifonov (1989) has shown that probably all DNA sequences in the genome encrypt multiple codes (up to 12)."
    Genetic Entropy 2008 p.131-2

    "The poly-constrained nature of DNA serves as strong evidence that higher genomes cannot evolve via mutation/selection except on a trivial level. " Genetic Entropy 2008 p.133
    A horticulturist who is an intelligent design advocate. Hardly an evolutionist who is still working on evolutionary studies while claiming it's bunk.

    So no evidence on your claim that "evolutionists are secretly telling you it's all bunk".

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    When in doubt, quote-mine! And lo and behold, you can pretend Stephen Jay Gould secretly thought that Evolution was all bunk!

    Hang on - does that mean that if the Pope expresses doubt about a tiny piece of dogma, he is becoming more and more vocal about how all Catholicism is nonsense?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    When in doubt, quote-mine! And lo and behold, you can pretend Stephen Jay Gould secretly thought that Evolution was all bunk!
    I never said that these people think that Evolution is bunk ... they clearly are Evolutionists ... but they have serious doubts over how and whether it occurs like the modern synthesis suggests it does.
    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Hang on - does that mean that if the Pope expresses doubt about a tiny piece of dogma, he is becoming more and more vocal about how all Catholicism is nonsense?
    If he did ... he could well be.:):eek:


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