1 in 1000 Irish Muslims are jihadi fighters

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 03:50PM

getzls wrote: »

Why is a Man buried for stoning to his waist and a Woman is buried to her chest?

Less chance of escaping?

Horrid Woman hating religion, as can be seen by the cases in Rotherham.

Has no place in our modern society.

Being buried is for your own good otherwise your natural reflex would lead to you running around trying to avoid the stones prolonging your pain and suffering a women is buried to her chest to guard her privates as clothes may come of as result of the stoning however there is no way you can escape anyway once the law is implemented.
As for the "women hating religion" bit it shows that you really know nothing about Islam let me tell you something
1) One of the world oldest university was established and build by a muslim women in 859-University of al-Qarawiyyin
2)Before Islam that arabs were know to burry their children once they found out it was a female out of shame Islam stopped that
3)The only person whom in Islam god directly gave glad tiding was a women
4) In Islam the rights of the mother is 3 times to the rights of the father
5) In Islam we believe that paradise is under the feet of the mothers
6) The greatest pillar of Islam specifically the 5 daily prayer are dropped from a women during her menstrual period due to the changes she go through
7)Islam called for education of the women something the west fought for hundreds of years later in fact one of the greatest narrators of hadeeth (prophet saying) was a women
The last sermon the prophet gave in his life enforced and highlighted the rights of women in which he said:
"O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers"
oh man i can go on and on about how Islam came to liberate the women but sadly people like you are quick to jump to conclusion without doing any research based on what you see on Fox news or what happens in some remote African village without taking the bother to investigate whether there actions are part of Islam or no.

RobYourBuilder · 07-09-2014 03:55PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Being buried is for your own good otherwise your natural reflex would lead to you running around trying to avoid the stones prolonging your pain and suffering a women is buried to her chest to guard her privates as clothes may come of as result of the stoning however there is no way you can escape anyway once the law is implemented.

For their own good? Here's a crazy idea. How about not stoning women to death? Do you support this madness?

end of the road · 07-09-2014 04:28PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Being buried is for your own good otherwise your natural reflex would lead to you running around trying to avoid the stones prolonging your pain and suffering a women is buried to her chest to guard her privates as clothes may come of as result of the stoning however there is no way you can escape anyway once the law is implemented.
As for the "women hating religion" bit it shows that you really know nothing about Islam let me tell you something
1) One of the world oldest university was established and build by a muslim women in 859-University of al-Qarawiyyin
2)Before Islam that arabs were know to burry their children once they found out it was a female out of shame Islam stopped that
3)The only person whom in Islam god directly gave glad tiding was a women
4) In Islam the rights of the mother is 3 times to the rights of the father
5) In Islam we believe that paradise is under the feet of the mothers
6) The greatest pillar of Islam specifically the 5 daily prayer are dropped from a women during her menstrual period due to the changes she go through
7)Islam called for education of the women something the west fought for hundreds of years later in fact one of the greatest narrators of hadeeth (prophet saying) was a women
The last sermon the prophet gave in his life enforced and highlighted the rights of women in which he said:
"O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers"
oh man i can go on and on about how Islam came to liberate the women but sadly people like you are quick to jump to conclusion without doing any research based on what you see on Fox news or what happens in some remote African village without taking the bother to investigate whether there actions are part of Islam or no.

stoning a woman to death for riding someone else is the most stupid thing to do now in fairness

Nodin · 07-09-2014 04:29PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You betcha.

Here's the English translation: http://markhumphrys.com/halawa.html#translation

Why are you putting that lad alongside Jihadis?

end of the road · 07-09-2014 04:33PM

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you putting that lad alongside Jihadis?

because he's a mudlim init

Nodin · 07-09-2014 04:36PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Being buried is for your own good otherwise your natural reflex would lead to you running around trying to avoid the stones prolonging your pain and suffering a women is buried to her chest to guard her privates as clothes may come of as result of the stoning however there is no way you can escape anyway once the law is implemented.
...............

Well jaysus isn't that considerate....

AlekSmart · 07-09-2014 05:10PM

Nodin wrote: »

Well jaysus isn't that considerate....

Never fear,there'll be exemptions for non-believers...particularly Irish one's !

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-09-2014 05:26PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

For their own good? Here's a crazy idea. How about not stoning women to death? Do you support this madness?

America kills people with a lethal injection, this guy took 2 hours to die, does that make them as barbaric or are they more humane because it's done in an alleged controlled environment? How about the electric chair? Is that a better death than stoning?

Don't get me wrong here, i am in no way condoning the stoning to death of another human being but i believe if you are going to slate a country for one form of corporal punishment you should condemn them all

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-arizona-execution-20140723-story.html

convicted murderer in Arizona gasped and snorted for more than 90 minutes after a lethal injection Wednesday, his attorneys and witnesses said, dying in a botched execution that prompted the governor to order an investigation and the state Supreme Court to mandate that the materials used in the procedure be preserved.

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 05:55PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

For their own good? Here's a crazy idea. How about not stoning women to death? Do you support this madness?

end of the road wrote: »

stoning a woman to death for riding someone else is the most stupid thing to do now in fairness

Nodin wrote: »

Well jaysus isn't that considerate....

You have to understand that stoning is mostly done out of the individual guilt and confession due to the strict rules necessary to actually implement the stoning. Even after confessing to committing adultery and the judge decided to implement the punishment the person can recant his testimony and the punishment must then be revoked as the benefit of the doubt will be given to the man.
Burying the person is left to the imam to decide whether he sees it would be necessary or no i was just giving an explanation as to why the Imam may see burying favorable based on the situation

Stoning the Fornicator actually has no bases in the Quran and is derived from the BIBLE and hence it did not originate from Islam.
As for stoning someone for "riding a women" you make it sounds like its such a normal thing and I understand why your asking such question since adultery is so widespread in the western society but you have to understand that fornication was despised among the Arabs even before Islam and was seen as a shameful act not performed by a free man.

Stoning is also as I explained only for the married man that cheated on his wife,destroyed his house, betrayed the trust of his children and bought them shame. It increases the rate of single mothers & children growing up without a father, gives no right and respect to the women whom you cheated and slept with giving rise to hatred and result in child abandonment in the community. The punishment is so severe to stop you from even committing the act and if you did keep it to your self repent and tell no one which is highly encouraged, as Islam is not here to see people getting punished the prophet said that if the day of judgement was to begin and you have a seed in your hand you should plant it in order to flourish and build the earth which is one of the main purposes of Islam.

Nodin · 07-09-2014 05:57PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

You have to (.................)& the community strong.

It's such a crock of shite that most muslim states regardless of how conservative don't allow it. I don't give a crap if it came from the Koran, the Bible, or a Belgian chocolate easter egg, its primitive, mind numbingly stupid cockology.

UCDVet · 07-09-2014 06:01PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Being buried is for your own good otherwise your natural reflex would lead to you running around trying to avoid the stones prolonging your pain and suffering a women is buried to her chest to guard her privates as clothes may come of as result of the stoning however there is no way you can escape anyway once the law is implemented.
As for the "women hating religion" bit it shows that you really know nothing about Islam let me tell you something
1) One of the world oldest university was established and build by a muslim women in 859-University of al-Qarawiyyin
2)Before Islam that arabs were know to burry their children once they found out it was a female out of shame Islam stopped that
3)The only person whom in Islam god directly gave glad tiding was a women
4) In Islam the rights of the mother is 3 times to the rights of the father
5) In Islam we believe that paradise is under the feet of the mothers
6) The greatest pillar of Islam specifically the 5 daily prayer are dropped from a women during her menstrual period due to the changes she go through
7)Islam called for education of the women something the west fought for hundreds of years later in fact one of the greatest narrators of hadeeth (prophet saying) was a women
The last sermon the prophet gave in his life enforced and highlighted the rights of women in which he said:
"O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers"
oh man i can go on and on about how Islam came to liberate the women but sadly people like you are quick to jump to conclusion without doing any research based on what you see on Fox news or what happens in some remote African village without taking the bother to investigate whether there actions are part of Islam or no.

Sure - hate is a strong word. People in Western cultures would think it appropriate; it would be more appropriate to say they believe strongly in sexism. That is, that women are to be treated fundamentally differently because of their gender.

If you really sit down and talk to most racist people, it wouldn't be fair to say they 'hate' other races either. They'll usually believe that their race is superior, that races shouldn't mix, but they are happy enough for that other race to be on the other side of the world. The ill-will only comes when that race fails to act appropriate (that is, inferior).

A lot of people, back in the day, felt that owning slaves wasn't bad at all. After all, that other race was barely human, inferior in some ways, so we were doing them a favour by protecting them, and giving them a structured society to live in (as slaves).

So sure, Muslims don't hate women. They see them as inferior to men. Things to be owned and protected. And they're pretty clear on this topic, this isn't even a controversial opinion that I'm giving, it's really what they believe from their religious texts.

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 06:02PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's such a crock of shite that most muslim states regardless of how conservative don't allow it. I don't give a crap if it came from the Koran, the Bible, or a Belgian chocolate easter egg, its primitive, mind numbingly stupid cockology.

In the end your left to believe what you want i was just trying to make it clear so when one day am asked why did i not i can say i did.

AlekSmart · 07-09-2014 06:05PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's such a crock of shite that most muslim states regardless of how conservative don't allow it. I don't give a crap if it came from the Koran, the Bible, or a Belgian chocolate easter egg, its primitive, mind numbingly stupid cockology.

Very True,however ahmdoda's post is reflective of a significant element of modern Islmaic viewpoints throught it's sphere of influence.

What,would you suggest,is the best way of intelligently responding to such detailed and descriptive posts concerning such a strongly held belief system ?

Nodin · 07-09-2014 06:06PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

In the end your left to believe what you want.............

O that's lovely. That'll bring all the stoned to death people back to life.

RobYourBuilder · 07-09-2014 06:14PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

In the end your left to believe what you want i was just trying to make it clear so when one day am asked why did i not i can say i did.

How old are you? Where did you learn this stuff?

You're welcome to tell me to mind my nose, just curious.

AlekSmart · 07-09-2014 06:14PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

In the end your left to believe what you want i was just trying to make it clear so when one day am asked why did i not i can say i did.

Would it be accurate to compare this point of view with.....

for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing.

As a matter of interest,do you believe your day of questioning to be imminent and who shall your Inquisitor be ?

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 06:17PM

UCDVet wrote: »

Sure - hate is a strong word. People in Western cultures would think it appropriate; it would be more appropriate to say they believe strongly in sexism. That is, that women are to be treated fundamentally differently because of their gender.

If you really sit down and talk to most racist people, it wouldn't be fair to say they 'hate' other races either. They'll usually believe that their race is superior, that races shouldn't mix, but they are happy enough for that other race to be on the other side of the world. The ill-will only comes when that race fails to act appropriate (that is, inferior).

A lot of people, back in the day, felt that owning slaves wasn't bad at all. After all, that other race was barely human, inferior in some ways, so we were doing them a favour by protecting them, and giving them a structured society to live in (as slaves).

So sure, Muslims don't hate women. They see them as inferior to men. Things to be owned and protected. And they're pretty clear on this topic, this isn't even a controversial opinion that I'm giving, it's really what they believe from their religious texts.

You would be doing women injustice if you treat them the same as men.
In the eye of the law and rights in Islam women and men are the exact same, however absolute justice for example letting a blind person race a normal person in an obstacle track because their both men in order to equate between the gender is clearly unfair, the blind man needs more privilege and help similarly the women and the men they are different in their physical and hormonal structure and you cant treat one the exact same as the other.

Your last point were you stated that women are seen as inferior to men has no base in Islam and am ready to denounce my religion if you could bring me a proof from the Quran or the hadeeth to support such claim.
Inferior treatment of women is related to cultural and old misogynistic views established by philosophers and thinkers such as Aristotle who believed that the creative principle in human development came from the male and the egg was merely a generative force.

Donkey Oaty · 07-09-2014 06:20PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Your last point were you stated that women are seen as inferior to men has no base in Islam and am ready to denounce my religion if you could bring me a proof from the Quran or the hadeeth to support such claim.

You do realise that you could be executed for that, at least according to your earlier posts?

bodice ripper · 07-09-2014 06:24PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

You would be doing women injustice if you treat them the same as men.
In the eye of the law and rights in Islam women and men are the exact same, however absolute justice for example letting a blind person race a normal person in an obstacle track because their both men in order to equate between the gender is clearly unfair, the blind man needs more privilege and help similarly the women and the men they are different in their physical and hormonal structure and you cant treat one the exact same as the other.

Good job debunking the idea that Islam is fundamentally sexist, genius. You are totally shifting paradigms here....

UCDVet · 07-09-2014 06:25PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

You would be doing women injustice if you treat them the same as men.
In the eye of the law and rights in Islam women and men are the exact same, however absolute justice for example letting a blind person race a normal person in an obstacle track because their both men in order to equate between the gender is clearly unfair, the blind man needs more privilege and help similarly the women and the men they are different in their physical and hormonal structure and you cant treat one the exact same as the other.

Your last point were you stated that women are seen as inferior to men has no base in Islam and am ready to denounce my religion if you could bring me a proof from the Quran or the hadeeth to support such claim.
Inferior treatment of women is related to cultural and old misogynistic views established by philosophers and thinkers such as Aristotle who believed that the creative principle in human development came from the male and the egg was merely a generative force.

For starters - men can marry multiple women. Women can only marry a single man (at a time).

Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

From the Hadeeth:
"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

So - because women are inferior to men, it takes two of them saying the same thing to equal that of one man saying something.

I mean - honestly - the list is pretty much endless. I'm not even sure why you are asking me.

How about this?

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion [committing a religious sin], admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
—Qur'an , [Quran 4:34]

Seems pretty clear to me.

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 06:35PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

How old are you? Where did you learn this stuff?

You're welcome to tell me to mind my nose, just curious.

Its better i think to send you a Pm rather then answer it here

AlekSmart wrote: »

Would it be accurate to compare this point of view with.....

As a matter of interest,do you believe your day of questioning to be imminent and who shall your Inquisitor be ?

aha thats a good point our prophet said “Whoever among you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action]; if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out]; and if he cannot, then with his heart [by hating it and feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith” but no matter how hard you try to explain if the person is adamant on his evil act i cant change the way he believe since its his choice to believe what he wants be it right or wrong

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

You do realise that you could be executed for that, at least according to your earlier posts?

I said that as a challenge because am 100% sure no such text exist you have to understand that there are thousands of books written by Islamic scholars explaining Islam and its laws since even the prophet him self said that the religion is very complex and hence any text you see i invite you not to take its plain meaning rather look into what the scholars of Islam said about it as these are people that spent there lifetime learning about this religion alone

UCDVet · 07-09-2014 06:42PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Its better i think to send you a Pm rather then answer it here

aha thats a good point our prophet said “Whoever among you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action]; if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out]; and if he cannot, then with his heart [by hating it and feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith” but no matter how hard you try to explain if the person is adamant on his evil act i cant change the way he believe since its his choice to believe what he wants be it right or wrong

I said that as a challenge because am 100% sure no such text exist you have to understand that there are thousands of books written by Islamic scholars explaining Islam and its laws since even the prophet him self said that the religion is very complex and hence any text you see i invite you not to take its plain meaning rather look into what the scholars of Islam said about it as these are people that spent there lifetime learning about this religion alone

That seems to be quite the contradiction. First, you say you are 100% sure no such text exists. But then, just a few words later, you invite us not to 'take its plain meaning'. I'm not sure I understand, but it seems like you're saying such texts *do* exist - but if we don't take their 'plain meaning' we can twist it around into gender equality?

I don't want to put words in your mouth or misrepresent your intent, but maybe you can elaborate?

Donkey Oaty · 07-09-2014 06:46PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

...you have to understand that there are thousands of books written by Islamic scholars explaining Islam and its laws since even the prophet him self said that the religion is very complex and hence any text you see i invite you not to take its plain meaning rather look into what the scholars of Islam said about it as these are people that spent there lifetime learning about this religion alone

You are a bit of a goalpost shifter, my friend. You said this:

women are seen as inferior to men has no base in Islam and am ready to denounce my religion if you could bring me a proof from the Quran or the hadeeth to support such claim

which is exactly what UCDVet has done. You're saying the Koran or Hadith are meaningless without interpretation, and I'd be inclined to agree with you there, except I would go on to say they are meaningless with interpretation as well.

Anyway, good luck with your theological studies.

Wild_Dogger · 07-09-2014 06:56PM

How does CNN know who or what number of Irish Muslims are jihadist fighters ?

I call BS on this survey

EunanMac · 07-09-2014 07:03PM

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

How does CNN know who or what number of Irish Muslims are jihadist fighters ?

I call BS on this survey

Americans see them everywhere now, commies used to be the obsession.

Donkey Oaty · 07-09-2014 07:21PM

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

How does CNN know who or what number of Irish Muslims are jihadist fighters ?

Based on reports from national governments and "other sources", the reports say - and it is "suspected" jihadist fighters, not confirmed.

Not sure what the conspiracy theory is here really - it's well-documented that some Europe-based Muslims are going to fight abroad, and have been doing for a long time, and in any case it is a relatively small number.

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 07:34PM

UCDVet wrote: »

For starters - men can marry multiple women. Women can only marry a single man (at a time).

Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers.

From the Hadeeth:
"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

So - because women are inferior to men, it takes two of them saying the same thing to equal that of one man saying something.

I mean - honestly - the list is pretty much endless. I'm not even sure why you are asking me.

How about this?

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion [committing a religious sin], admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
—Qur'an , [Quran 4:34]

Seems pretty clear to me.

Thank you for replaying with evidence to support your claim I really appreciate that and hope people would do the same so I can clarify a lot of the misunderstanding people have with regard to the text

I being by inviting you to look deeper into the text rather then taking the plain words the Quran is only 600 pages yet volumes each numbering nearly a thousand page were written trying to explain and interpret its meaning.

Lets take alot at the first verse you quoted
"Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers"
From a moral and logical point of view do you really see nothing wrong with your wife being married to 3 other men? i mean how can you even know which child is yours.
"how many wifes have you got" is quite a humorous question a lot of the westerners ask the Arabs most of the time we answer by saying we got only one but its the solution to YOUR problem.
In America alone there are 7.8 million more women then men and obviously not all men will get married on top of that there are approximately 25 million men who are gays and hence ANOTHER 25m women cant get married/find a partner, 98% of the prison population are males so your problem is only getting more complicated while Islam is offering you a solution.
Quran is the only scripture which has the statement "marry only one" and you can only marry more if you can do JUSTICE between your wives in term of money,time and material things the quran it self acknowledge that doing justice in term of love is not entirely possible but that shouldnt make you unjust to another.
On another note you talk like Islam is the religion that introduced polygamy however it was practiced centuries before Islam. Islam came to set a limit to polygamy for example prophet Ibrahim had 3 wifes Solomon had 700 wives the bible and the jewish scripture both premit polygamy its only later that laws were passed to limit the Jews to one wife & the Christians as well by the church and Jewish rabbis.

The second statement from the Hadeeth you brought states
"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'
You have to read the full text of the hadeeth to understand what the prophet meant when he said said:
"I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Messenger! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
If you are really interested in understanding the true meaning behind this hadeeth I invite you to read this well writen & articulate article http://en.alukah.net/Shariah/9/9/ as explaining the hadeeth would turn this post into an essay ~thanks

~ I realized i missed your last point as i was too focused on the other two i will need to explain the full verse for you to understand it well which I will do and send you in a Pm soon as it could be quite lengthy to post here.

ahmdoda · 07-09-2014 07:47PM

UCDVet wrote: »

That seems to be quite the contradiction. First, you say you are 100% sure no such text exists. But then, just a few words later, you invite us not to 'take its plain meaning'. I'm not sure I understand, but it seems like you're saying such texts *do* exist - but if we don't take their 'plain meaning' we can twist it around into gender equality?

I don't want to put words in your mouth or misrepresent your intent, but maybe you can elaborate?

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

You are a bit of a goalpost shifter, my friend. You said this:

which is exactly what UCDVet has done. You're saying the Koran or Hadith are meaningless without interpretation, and I'd be inclined to agree with you there, except I would go on to say they are meaningless with interpretation as well.

Anyway, good luck with your theological studies.

The Arabic language is very complex and 1 word could have more then one meaning if anyone studies Arabic he would know this & when i say interpretation i really mean explanation as the quran and the hadeeth are the highest form of arabic from which the arabic grammar is drawn. The quran it self can be read in 10 different ways as different tribes back at the time had different pronunciation of the words which would slightly change the meaning but not the context in which its written.
Translation into English is usually limited in term of translating the full meaning of the Arabic text and hence its important not to take the plain text and look into the interpretation as well to fully understand what is said,
if your a master of the Arabic language however you would find no problem understanding the Quran or the Hadeeth in its arabic form.
I specifically told you not to look at the plain text since am assuming your not an arabic speaker nor an Islamic scholars and due to the limitation of the english language to fully translate the arabic text i invited you to look at the interpretation of the verse that further explain the meaning of the arabic verse for example the first chapter of the quran contain 17 words in Arabic its English translation however contain more then 70 words.

And i still stand by saying that there is no Explicit text in the Quran that clearly indicate sexism or teach to treat women as inferiors such as a verse that says "Women are inferior to men" or such

Victor · 07-09-2014 07:52PM

I wonder, are 1 in 1,000 Irish people a past or present member of a paramilitary organisation?

UCDVet · 07-09-2014 08:04PM

ahmdoda wrote: »

Thank you for replaying with evidence to support your claim I really appreciate that and hope people would do the same so I can clarify a lot of the misunderstanding people have with regard to the text

I being by inviting you to look deeper into the text rather then taking the plain words the Quran is only 600 pages yet volumes each numbering nearly a thousand page were written trying to explain and interpret its meaning.

Lets take alot at the first verse you quoted
"Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers"
From a moral and logical point of view do you really see nothing wrong with your wife being married to 3 other men? i mean how can you even know which child is yours.
"how many wifes have you got" is quite a humorous question a lot of the westerners ask the Arabs most of the time we answer by saying we got only one but its the solution to YOUR problem.
In America alone there are 7.8 million more women then men and obviously not all men will get married on top of that there are approximately 25 million men who are gays and hence ANOTHER 25m women cant get married/find a partner, 98% of the prison population are males so your problem is only getting more complicated while Islam is offering you a solution.
Quran is the only scripture which has the statement "marry only one" and you can only marry more if you can do JUSTICE between your wives in term of money,time and material things the quran it self acknowledge that doing justice in term of love is not entirely possible but that shouldnt make you unjust to another.
On another note you talk like Islam is the religion that introduced polygamy however it was practiced centuries before Islam. Islam came to set a limit to polygamy for example prophet Ibrahim had 3 wifes Solomon had 700 wives the bible and the jewish scripture both premit polygamy its only later that laws were passed to limit the Jews to one wife & the Christians as well by the church and Jewish rabbis.

The second statement from the Hadeeth you brought states
"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'
You have to read the full text of the hadeeth to understand what the prophet meant when he said said:
"I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Messenger! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
If you are really interested in understanding the true meaning behind this hadeeth I invite you to read this well writen & articulate article http://en.alukah.net/Shariah/9/9/ as explaining the hadeeth would turn this post into an essay ~thanks

My goal isn't to debate the merits of polygamy or to imply that Islam is the first religion to advocate or allow it. I could point out that your argument doesn't make sense globally (there are more men than women in the world) and that we can trivially test for genetic paternity. It's painless and reasonably affordable.

My goal is to point out that the holy texts 'plainly' advocate that women are inferior to men and are to be allowed a subset of options available to men. I don't think you really disagree either - it's just, you'll either justify it (as you did above with polygamy) or you'll offer a different, more complex interpretation of what the text 'really means'. I also don't see why a woman being unable to pray during her menses has any bearing on her ability to testify. It all seems quite nonsensical to me. But again, if you *already* firmly believe in the text, of course, you will find a justification. What seems to make sense to you - 'Well yes! Women can't pray during their menses, of course we need two of them to carry the weight of a man's testimony'; seems well, ridiculous to me.

And that's fine.

But it's hard to say that the Qur'an doesn't say these things. It clearly does.

1 in 1000 Irish Muslims are jihadi fighters

Comments