Ireland in WW2....

The Diabolical Monocle · 07-09-2014 12:46PM

Quite simply put the approach taken by Ireland at the time was the best choice available.

There is no other way to play out the scenario that so limits possible later destruction of Ireland* while simultaneously lending as much help as possible within constraints to the allies.

The Cranbourne report will shut up any buffoons who try to besmirch Ireland with a simple nazi/Godwin accusation.

These threads usually emanate from a frustrated loyalist mind, resorting to the lowly tactics of tabloid style accusation.

*by either Germany OR Britain, which would thank Ireland for its now dead men lying in Europe, by putting a knife right in Irelands back.

Shakespeare's Sister · 07-09-2014 12:46PM

smurgen wrote: »

your mindset is the problem with the american war machine.you see it as an industry.wake up.it is innocent men and women killed.it's not a game and should be avoided at all costs.

Ireland doesn't owe an explanation to ANYONE for it's behavior in world war two.We are OUR own country, we make OUR own decisions. We fought for OUR independence in blood.And we should only take to arms when we have absolutely no other option.

Exactly. An "embarrassing" period in our history -wtf?!
Better shtick in how "we" are an anti-semitic nation too - that's another fashionable one.

pablomakaveli · 07-09-2014 12:57PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The joys of being an island meant we were harder to get too. We did absolutely the right thing by staying neutral imo.

Dev signing the book of condolences was protocol and I wouldn't read too much into it.

It was said that it was more out of respect for the German ambassador who had been well behaved during the war (unlike his American counterpart).

pablomakaveli · 07-09-2014 12:58PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It must have changed since I was at school then.

I put it down to the general ignorance of Irish history in the UK. I reckon people confuse Sean Russell exploits as being representative of Ireland at the time.

smurgen · 07-09-2014 01:03PM

rozeboosje wrote: »

I'm sure there are options other than participating in a peace force in places like Lebanon or Syria. For example: leave them to kill each other and pretend you're not seeing the human suffering. The fact that Irish peace-keepers are actually there trying to help shows that the position "we should only get involved when there is absolutely no other option" is not one held by the various Irish governments of the last few decades.

well if other countrys acted more like Ireland we wouldn't have issues the likes of which we have in the Middle East that now need fixing.It says something about the world when not engaging in war is perceived to be something to be ashamed about.

P_1 · 07-09-2014 01:09PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Wouldn't have hurt the economy either, be it by all the servicemen with time and money to kill, or from the Marshall Plan, which would have seen, as a combatant, Ireland get a much larger boost than it did.

That said, domestic political stupidity probably forced the government's hand to maintain a position of not allying with the UK.

Yes but that's coming from the US perspective, where (Hawaii and Pacific islands aside) the civilian populace and economy were spared the effects of WW2 thanks to the Atlantic and Pacific. Ireland would have had no such luxury. Yes the Channel and the Irish Sea are formidable natural barriers but they wouldn't have been impenetrable.

Yes having a few GIs in town to spend their dollars would have been nice but would those dollars have paid for rebuilding O'Connell Bridge for example?

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 01:21PM

The only thing that saved is from attack or domination was the accident of geography. Other countries tried to pursue neutrality and were unable to do so because they were closer to the major theatres of war and did not have the RN and RAF sitting between them and the Germans.

The fact we benefitted from a collective defense that we didn't contribute to, is shameful.

Thankfully, despite the political establishment's attitude a lot of cooperation took place at the military level. But there was still a lot more could've been done - air bases to save he lives of merchant seamen is but one example.

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 01:24PM

P_1 wrote: »

Yes but that's coming from the US perspective, where (Hawaii and Pacific islands aside) the civilian populace and economy were spared the effects of WW2 thanks to the Atlantic and Pacific. Ireland would have had no such luxury. Yes the Channel and the Irish Sea are formidable natural barriers but they wouldn't have been impenetrable.

Yes having a few GIs in town to spend their dollars would have been nice but would those dollars have paid for rebuilding O'Connell Bridge for example?

No, by the Marshall Plan would've paid for that and a lot more besides.

The Americans also dangled their support for a united Ireland to try and encourage more practical support from the then Irish government.

07-09-2014 01:26PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

One worrying thing i've heard from various people over here in the UK is that they were taught in school that Ireland aided the Nazi's in WW2.

I've gotten into a couple of arguments over it as well with some people who are adament it's true.

I've seen that online a few times, particularly in the top rated commments on the Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092138/Irish-minister-admits-time-Jews-fleeing-Nazis-denied-visas-1930s-morally-bankrupt-regime.html

smurgen · 07-09-2014 01:35PM

riffmongous wrote: »

I've seen that online a few times, particularly in the top rated commments on the Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092138/Irish-minister-admits-time-Jews-fleeing-Nazis-denied-visas-1930s-morally-bankrupt-regime.html

that's a right wing publication from a former empire that dominated us for years. **** them and their opinions.

Shakespeare's Sister · 07-09-2014 01:53PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

One worrying thing i've heard from various people over here in the UK is that they were taught in school that Ireland aided the Nazi's in WW2.

I've gotten into a couple of arguments over it as well with some people who are adament it's true.

It's a thing self loathers (Ireland being full of them), huge fans of the IDF, some loyalists, and anti-Irish idiots like to say.
Whereas reality: there was a pogrom in Limerick in the early 20th century, which was obviously disgusting, and there are a few anti-semitic scumbags (like in ANY country unfortunately - and to a much greater extent the further east in Europe you go).
Then there's the thing of catholicism automatically = anti-semitism. I guess Spain is automatically an anti-semitic country so.

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 02:01PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

It's a thing self loathers (Ireland being full of them), huge fans of the IDF and anti-Irish idiots like to say.
Whereas reality: there was a pogrom in Limerick in the early 20th century, which was obviously disgusting, and there are a few anti-semitic scumbags (like in ANY country unfortunately - and to a much greater extent the further east in Europe you go).
Then there's the thing of catholicism automatically = anti-semitism. I guess Spain is automatically an anti-semitic country so.

It's kind of difficult to sustain the anti-semitic argument, given the recognition afforded to the Jewish Congregations in the original 1937 Constitution (Art 44).

You could argue that Art 44 was a sectarian given the primacy it afforded the Roman Catholic church, but state recognition for Judaism in late 1930s Europe was pretty progressive for the time. It seems Dev and his advisors (not so much McQuaid) were anxious to prevent in Ireland what was happening in other countries.

That said, you still, as you suggest, can't legislate away stupidity and idiocy on the part of a minority of citizens.

Strong Life in Dublin · 07-09-2014 02:18PM

No offence but I don't see why Ireland would of getting involved....did anyone get involved when we where occupied by the British? ?

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 02:29PM

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

No offence but I don't see why Ireland would of getting involved....did anyone get involved when we where occupied by the British? ?

Except we weren't 'occupied' - we were, for better or worse, part of the UK. Unlike the colonies we had full parliamentary representation, participated fully in the administration of the empire and benefited from that participation.

The Irish served as prime ministers, senior administrators and top military commanders, in the same way the Scots and Welsh did.

But don't let the facts obscure your view.

Out of interest, do you think der Fuhrer would have been happy just to leave us to our own devices had the Allies been defeated? Would the lives of 2,000 of our fellow citizens listed at Wannsee have been a small price to pay to be left alone?

To borrow a line from Trotsky......we may not have been interested in the war, but the war was interested in us

wendell borton · 07-09-2014 02:40PM

Strong Life in Dublin wrote: »

No offence but I don't see why Ireland would of getting involved....did anyone get involved when we where occupied by the British? ?

The French landed troops in Galway and the Connaught republic was briefly established. The Spanish also at the battle of Kinsale, the papal state supported the earl of desmond rebellion and Robert the Bruce's brother also campaigned here.

Ireland may have had a parliament but it wasn't for the benefit of the vast majority, it was a sectarian apartheid parliament that represented rich land owners.

steddyeddy · 07-09-2014 02:50PM

gandalf wrote: »

Considering we had gone through WW1, a rising, a War of Independence, a Civil War it was prudent that we remained neutral especially as fighting on the allied side could have instigated another civil war. Kepping us neutral was one of the few positive things Devalera did for this country.

That said a large number from Southern Ireland fought on the side of the allies. Numbers range from over 60,000 to 160,000.

This/thread.

Red Nissan · 07-09-2014 03:01PM

Ireland added nothing to the war length, do you know that Mr Churchill wanted to invade in 1946 extending the war another year and the Yanks said they were going ahead without him?

Also Ireland was not as neutral as we profess to believe. Plenty of aid was given to the British and American fleets off our West and South West coasts particularly.

We have stories of two German U-Boots sunk in coastal waters and the British Naval frigate sunk in action in Ballycotton Bay.

Check out the activity in Bantry during the war years, effectively a British coastal defense base and a holding area for the US aid fleets for D-Day.

mikemac1 · 07-09-2014 03:32PM

riffmongous wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092138/Irish-minister-admits-time-Jews-fleeing-Nazis-denied-visas-1930s-morally-bankrupt-regime.html

Who cares what Alan Shatter thinks

He would have been happy to drag Ireland into a war

07-09-2014 03:33PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Who cares what Alan Shatter thinks

He would have been happy to drag Ireland into a war

That wasnt the point of my post. I was only interested in the comments section and the attitude some of the people have there

francis1978 · 07-09-2014 03:44PM

What were the names of these Irish Prime-ministers ??

Jawgap wrote: »

Except we weren't 'occupied' - we were, for better or worse, part of the UK. Unlike the colonies we had full parliamentary representation, participated fully in the administration of the empire and benefited from that participation.

The Irish served as prime ministers, senior administrators and top military commanders, in the same way the Scots and Welsh did.

But don't let the facts obscure your view.

Out of interest, do you think der Fuhrer would have been happy just to leave us to our own devices had the Allies been defeated? Would the lives of 2,000 of our fellow citizens listed at Wannsee have been a small price to pay to be left alone?

To borrow a line from Trotsky......we may not have been interested in the war, but the war was interested in us

FloatingVoter · 07-09-2014 03:49PM

francis1978 wrote: »

What were the names of these Irish Prime-ministers ??

Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) would be one.

francis1978 · 07-09-2014 03:54PM

Any others ? One swallow does not a summer make, I've always wondered if we were supposed to have been such an integral part of the union why we did not provide many more. I know the penal laws played a part in this.

quote="FloatingVoter;92095345"]Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) would be one.[/quote]

smurgen · 07-09-2014 04:01PM

francis1978 wrote: »

Any others ? One swallow does not a summer make, I've always wondered if we were supposed to have been such an integral part of the union why we did not provide many more. I know the penal laws played a part in this.

quote="FloatingVoter;92095345"]Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington) would be one.

[/QUOTE]

anybody saying we wanted to be part of the union is talking out of their hole.we didn't the evidence for this is the fact that thousands of irish died to get out of it.we had British colonialism imposed upon us. if we had wanted to be part of the U.K we'd still be in it.the only ones who benefited from it were the elite in society who were put in positions of power by the British.

cml387 · 07-09-2014 04:09PM

To bring a lighter note to proceedings..there is a story about two Dubliners serving with the Eighth army in Africa, stuck in a foxhole, arguing about politics.
"Say what you like about Dev" said one "At least he kept us out of this war"

Ghost Buster · 07-09-2014 04:13PM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Really embarrassing period in our history, to be honest

Mostly agree but I did hear it put once that Germany wasnt known as a genocidal invasion force by the Irish at the outbreak of war where as..............well.....

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 04:30PM

francis1978 wrote: »

What were the names of these Irish Prime-ministers ??

Couple of Dublin lads......

......Arthur Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington and William Petty, the Earl of Shelburne.

FloatingVoter · 07-09-2014 04:32PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Mostly agree but I did hear it put once that Germany wasnt known as a genocidal invasion force by the Irish at the outbreak of war where as..............well.....

Mein Kampff had been on the bookshelves for 15 years. The Nuremberg Laws had been passed and Kristallnacht had occurred by 1939. The death camps were not yet in existence but nobody was under the illusion that Hitler was a nice person. As for an invasion force -by the end of 1940 they had overrun mainland Europe.

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 04:34PM

cml387 wrote: »

To bring a lighter note to proceedings..there is a story about two Dubliners serving with the Eighth army in Africa, stuck in a foxhole, arguing about politics.
"Say what you like about Dev" said one "At least he kept us out of this war"

A story I related in another thread.....

The Irish Regiment of Canada fought a series of sharp actions in the breakthrough at Monte Cassino.

Having crossed the Melfa (an action for which Maj Keefer Mahony of the Westminster Regt received the VC) they were relieved by the 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers (part of 38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade).

Legend has it that when the move was being organised there was a Canadian soldier directing traffic, shouting "Canadian Irish this way! English Irish, that way!!"

j80ezgvc3p92xu · 07-09-2014 09:11PM

I think Ireland did well by avoiding another European fratricide. There was little the newborn country could offer in the way of support either and there was virtually no way the Irish could bring the war over to Adolf to teach him a thing or two. I think the costs would hugely outweigh any possible benefits.

Btw one of the most awesome military commanders of all time was half Irish. His biography just defies belief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart

Buona Fortuna · 07-09-2014 09:29PM

Tyson Wonderful Forest wrote: »

I think Ireland did well by avoiding another European fratricide. There was little the newborn country could offer in the way of support either and there was virtually no way the Irish could bring the war over to Adolf to teach him a thing or two. I think the costs would hugely outweigh any possible benefits.

Btw one of the most awesome military commanders of all time was half Irish. His biography just defies belief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart

OK well if its alright to start naming a few heroes here's one of mine Edward Stephen Fogarty Fegen VC. Fegen was born in England to Irish parents. Because of that his VC has in the past been classed as an Irish VC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fegen

Fegen was the Captain of the sole escort of convoy HX84. The convoy was engaged by the pocket battleship Admiral Scheer. Now Fegen's ship, HMS Jervis Bay, was a tub. It was a converted passenger liner.

Fegen ordered the convoy to scatter and steamed directly for the Scheer. He forced the Scheer to sink his ship before going after the convoy.

A total hero. He had all the time in the world to change his mind. Maybe lay a little smoke, or play a little cat and mouse but no. He just kept steaming towards the Scheer, forcing the more powerful ship to engage him first.

Needless to say the VC was awarded posthumously.

Ireland in WW2....

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