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1 in 1000 Irish Muslims are jihadi fighters

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Comments

  • #152
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    getzls wrote: »
    Christianity does not hate Black people.
    I am a Christian and if i see God i expect Him to be Black.

    And do you think Jesus would support the actions of the KKK?:rolleyes:
    My point here is that if you want to label all Muslims over the absolutely deplorable acts of a minority in Rotherham, then you can expect to be labelled as a Christian for the deplorable acts seen in places like Alabama. Especially since you don't seem to have much idea of how some of the more extreme versions of Islam came about in recent times.

    And forget Jesus, didn't God himself apparently tell the Israelites to do the following to different ethmicities: “smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them nor shew mercy unto them. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them.”

    And didn't God praise Phinehas for murdering an interracial married couple because killing them “hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel.”

    And he boasts about ethnicities in Israel that he “cleansed I them from all strangers”. Today, we call that ethnic cleansing.

    So rather than just black people, God apparently hated any and every Israelite on the planet.


  • #153
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well hey, Christianity as a religious hates blacks. I mean just look at what we've seen going on in the deep south of the USA with the Ku Klux Klan.

    And then there's the whole BBC child abuse controversy, caused by a bunch of white Christians. That's before bringing up the politicians they still seem to be tip toeing around investigating relating go the Elm Guest House.

    This Christianity business sounds horrid altogether. Perhaps you would be better off in a predominantly Muslim country? I'm sure that they are utopias compared to predominantly Christian countries.


  • #154
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    This Christianity business sounds horrid altogether. Perhaps you would be better off in a predominantly Muslim country? I'm sure that they are utopias compared to predominantly Christian countries.
    Ah this old gem. I would love to know where I said Muslim countries are a Utopia compared to Christian countries, or vice versa.

    Someone might just chime in to tell us there are no churches or cathedrals in any Muslim countries next. :)

    Love it or loathe, society is integrating Rob. Sure you still have places where Muslims or Christians or Buddhists or whoever are discriminated against, but like it or not the world is becoming a smaller place with mixes of all of these religions popping up almost everywhere.


  • #155
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    Ah here, Christianity hates black people? The BBC child abusers' religion was of relevance?
    I am fully in agreement with not demonising all Muslims but to say fundamentalist Christianity (which can be dreadful obviously) is as bad as sharia is pretty dishonest.
    I'd still prefer to be a woman living in the Bible Belt than in Somalia.
    Well yeah, I mean there are issues that have placed a good few Islamic countries behind Christian ones socially, a lot of which has to do with socioeconomic problems hurting education which is pretty key to improving these situations.

    It's why earlier in the thread I brought up the Wahhabi movement that came from Saudi Arabia. To briefly repeat what happened, they used the sudden influx of capital they received to spread Wahhabi Islam through much of the middle east and Africa, set up schools, universities and such that taught through that prism. It's a pretty traditional, dated form of Islam but the reason it spread so much from the 70s onward was because the people practicising it could afford to print way, way more literature than all the others combined. It's not too dissimilar to the spread of Christianity (in many cases, quite fundamental Christianity) through other parts of Africa. It was never intended as an extremist movement though, that came about from certain characters within it in response to post WW2 American imperialism which was most vehemently supported by the "far Christian right" in the US which is pretty fundamental in itself.

    The end result is that you get more extreme versions of both Islam and Christianity than were ever really envisaged in the first place. Just look at the "new world creationists" for an example on our" end.

    Now by the time the Saudis were spreading their new movement, most of the Christian world were further along in the process, and we're changing our ways. In this sense as I said, there is catching up to so on their part in many instances but you will see that develop in time (with a few exceptions, just as we are also stuck with some religious nutjobs).

    But being a woman in the Bible Belt is not the same comparison as being black over there. There are still obviously huge tensions and racial issues in that part of the world, but if we want to draw a comparison towards the absolute ugliest parts of each religion you would want to compare it with being a black person in 1950 deep south USA, where not only could you not vote, sit on parts of the bus, eat in most restaurants or apply for the majority of jobs... You could be lynched and hung from a tree just for existing without any real response from law enforcement as a result (plenty of the time, they would be the ones hinder the white hood Lyn hang you).

    So basically yeah there are horrible parts of Islam and the Muslim population, but there have been (and still are) horrible parts of Christianity and the Christian population. But both have many, many different branches, rules, beliefs and societal systems. You can't lump them all together because they are just too vast for it to make sense.


  • #156
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    ahmdoda wrote: »
    Before criticizing anything educate your self first about it first instead of making your judgement on the plain text alone.
    Stoning for adultery is a punishment for the married man/women because fornication is a heinous act that destroys homes and families especially for someone who's already blessed with a wife.
    During the prophet time there are only 2 recorded cases were people were stoned for adultery because they them self came forward out of guilt and testified against them self I invite you to actually study these 2 cases to understand how implementing the punishment is never recommended in Islam.
    Under normal circumstances however 4 pious witnesses are required that all see the act and I mean explicitly see Pennsylvania & Virginia making contact to testify,which is practically impossible unless the act is done in public.

    Islam want to prevent the act in the first place by imposing strict rules and punishments that prevent people from even contemplating it,
    as for killing the apostate this can only be done in an Islamic state by the Imam/ruler once he deems the person a danger to the state if he tries to attack the state and spread his beliefs in the Muslim community otherwise you are free to believe what you want.
    If any Muslim tells you that he is against killing the apostate and stoning the adulterous married man/women once the strict condition have been met then he/she is not a Muslim.
    There is more to Sharia law then punishment and more to Islam then Sharia law go read about it from a credible source not something like answering-Islam or wiki-Islam

    I wonder would ahmdoda's post merit a sticky...cos it is VERY informative to those of us not totally au-fait with the finer points of Islamic reasoning.

    In the context of the ramping-up of Dr Ali Salim's efforts to achieve greater understanding of (and tolerance for) Islamic beliefs,we would appear to have a LOT of reading to do...

    http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/ali-selim%E2%80%99s-mask-begins-to-slip-by-our-irish-islamist-expert/

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ali-selim-stereotyping-all-muslims-simply-a-form-of-oppression-29292532.html

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810
    When it came to music some Muslims would see it as prohibited but “if music is performed using non-tuneable percussion instruments such as drums, most Muslims will have no problem”.

    In the short-term,therefore, I would have concerns for the welfare of buskers and guitar players in this "New" Ireland.....

    So,if it's OK with Dr Selim,I'll stick with my own God...Thank you very much,your Doctorship....might I attempt a little conversion perhaps....?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMevQtK8S6c

    ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • #157
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Billy86 wrote: »
    But being a woman in the Bible Belt is not the same comparison as being black over there. There are still obviously huge tensions and racial issues in that part of the world, but if we want to draw a comparison towards the absolute ugliest parts of each religion you would want to compare it with being a black person in 1950 deep south USA, where not only could you not vote, sit on parts of the bus, eat in most restaurants or apply for the majority of jobs... You could be lynched and hung from a tree just for existing without any real response from law enforcement as a result (plenty of the time, they would be the ones hinder the white hood Lyn hang you).
    This wasn't just to do with christianity though. I just brought up being a woman because how women are treated under muslim fundamentalism was mentioned.
    And I really disagree with "Islam has a few nut-jobs, but we do too". "A few"? The suffering under islamic extremism in various parts of the world, suffering that is mostly experienced by other muslims btw, is unimaginable. Where is there such an equivalent today under christianity? Pretending it's the same for christian societies helps nobody, least of all those muslim people suffering under sharia.
    But both have many, many different branches, rules, beliefs and societal systems. You can't lump them all together because they are just too vast for it to make sense.
    Well I know that.


  • #158
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Ah this old gem.

    You are giving the ould Christianity a grand bashing there, Bill, and defending Islam tooth and nail. Why is that? You see, it's very easy to bash Christianity in todays world. It doesn't take much balls, unlike, say, in 1950s Ireland. Slating Islam, now that takes balls. Draw a cartoon of Allah(pbuh)and you could end up on a cold slab.


  • #159
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    This wasn't just to do with christianity though. I just brought up being a woman because how women are treated under muslim fundamentalism was mentioned.
    And I really disagree with "Islam has a few nut-jobs, but we do too". "A few"? The suffering under islamic extremism in various parts of the world, suffering that is mostly experienced by other muslims btw, is unimaginable. Where is there such an equivalent today under christianity? Pretending it's the same for christian societies helps nobody, least of all those muslim people suffering under sharia.

    Well I know that.
    Again, as I mentioned in my post, a lot of Muslim countries are playing catch up with the Western World in terms of education and other key areas that are vital to improving these situations. Part of this is due to the Western World spreading Christianity to these countries as a way to exploit them, funny enough.

    This is why a more apt comparison is go where Christianity has been in the more recent past, as opposed to the present, though certain parts of Africa for example also have very oppressive laws and regimes, often in no small part thanks to well funded Biblical era type Christianity from America being pushed on/spread to them under various guises, pretty much exactly how Wahhabi Islam was an is being spread from Saudi Arabia.

    How many Muslims are suffering so terribly under Sharia Law in your mind though? Again your wording seems to paint the picture that it is a vast number, possibly even a majority. Sharon Law is adopted in different ways all throughout the Muslim world, though typical scaremongering looks to the worst elements of it and attempts to imply that all of these are used in every country with even a hint of Sharia Law in use, when it is often merely used for social issues regarding divorce, inheritance, child custody, etc and in other places merely as a guideline. It is not a black and white issue of "no Sharia Law or all Sharia Law" by any means.


  • #160
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Well look at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia... these aren't a majority, no, but not so insignificant that they're simply "a few" either.


  • #161
    chrysagon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭chrysagon


    The Irish govt are to do food drops to Christians surrounded by marauding Muslims.....dont worry, Christians in Clonskeagh, help is at hand !!!


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  • #162
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    You are giving the ould Christianity a grand bashing there, Bill, and defending Islam tooth and nail. Why is that? You see, it's very easy to bash Christianity in todays world. It doesn't take much balls, unlike, say, in 1950s Ireland. Slating Islam, now that takes balls. Draw a cartoon of Allah(pbuh)and you could end up on a cold slab.
    When did I mention 1950s Ireland exactly? Funny that you bring it up out of the blue like that.

    And if you want to define "there are horrible parts of Islam and the Muslim population" as well as saying that many of the countries of is practiced in it have catching up to do with the Christian world as "defending Islam tooth and nail" that really says an awful lot about you.

    Personally I'm not mad on organised religion at all, in any form. But the main reason for that is it leads people who live in a cycle of fear and hate to need to fill a void with an "us vs them" dynamic which never really leads to anything good at all.

    This is why I have been painting both in a similar light on here... both do good things in terms of providing education to their subjects (often subjects who would not otherwise have access to education), do a lot of humanitarian work, provide hope/discipline to people with troublesome histories (lots and lots of former drug addicts, criminals, etc "find" God/Allah and benefit greatly from it) and so on. And both have, and still do, commit some horrible atrocities and oppress whole races, opposing religions, sexes and genders... But that does not represent the majority whatsoever.

    Yet somehow in your mind this equates to "Christian bashing" and "defending Islam tooth and nail"? It just makes you come over as someone desperately needing that us/them dynamic in their lives to quench that cycle of fear and hate.


  • #163
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    chrysagon wrote: »
    The Irish govt are to do food drops to Christians surrounded by marauding Muslims.....dont worry, Christians in Clonskeagh, help is at hand !!!
    Yeah Clonskeagh is a right old war zone...


  • #164
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    Well look at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia... these aren't a majority, no, but not so insignificant that they're simply "a few" either.
    Somalia is an example of a country where it is used for personal disputes ad I mentioned earlier. Criminal cases refer back to traditional law.

    Likewise Uganda has brought in extremist laws recently in the name of Christianity, and the same American fundamentalists who played a major, major role in that have been pushing as hard as they can for other Christian African countries to do so for several years also. We just never really hear about that because Christian extremism just doesn't scare people in a primarily Christian nation in the same way that Islamic extremism does. But I'd bet you are more likely to find them in the papers of Islamic countries, where Christian extremism for many is a scary, foreign otherness compared to Islamic extremism.

    After all, no matter where in the world you are, those newspaper companies need to hit their sales targets.


  • #165
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    All I'm saying is "christianity can be as bad" doesn't assist or change the problems with islamic fundamentalism (I don't mean Islam in general). It's unhelpful and pointless. If this thread were about the rise of christian fundamentalism in Uganda and someone came along and said "Well about about the muslim extremists" I'd think the same thing. Whataboutery achieves nothing.
    Stressing that fundamentalist islam is not = all islam though is important, as some people like to use the extremists as a stick to beat the moderates with.

    We are hearing a lot about Uganda in fairness.


  • #166
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »
    All I'm saying is "christianity can be as bad" doesn't assist or change the problems with islamic fundamentalism (I don't mean Islam in general). It's unhelpful and pointless. If this thread were about the rise of christian fundamentalism in Uganda and someone came along and said "Well about about the muslim extremists" I'd think the same thing. Whataboutery achieves nothing.
    Stressing that fundamentalist islam is not = all islam though is important, as some people like to use the extremists as a stick to beat the moderates with.

    We are hearing a lot about Uganda in fairness.

    The problem is there are a lot of people who seem to think every Muslim is coming here to take our rights away and to treat women as lesser people, ignoring that Christians also have done things and it doesn't represent all Christians. It comes down to:
    Muslim did it? All Muslims support them.
    Christian did it? Its just a few crazies.


  • #167
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Yeah Clonskeagh is a right old war zone...

    It's producing a lot of young lads that head off to warzones. Including the imams own son. 34 Jihadis at last count.

    Wonderful stuff.


  • #168
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I wonder would (...............)
    ;)

    More muslim bashing?


  • #169
    Radly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Radly


    Nodin wrote: »
    More muslim bashing?

    Serious question. Why do you very often edit out someones post when you quote it?
    It makes for difficult reading in thread when you have to keep scrolling back to see the post in question.


  • #170
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Radly wrote: »
    Serious question. Why do you very often edit out someones post when you quote it?
    It makes for difficult reading in thread when you have to keep scrolling back to see the post in question.

    It depends on whether I'm making a general point re the post or a specific one.


  • #171
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    It's producing a lot of young lads that head off to warzones. Including the imams own son. 34 Jihadis at last count.

    Wonderful stuff.


    Sorry, do you have a source for that?


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  • #172
    Radly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Radly


    Nodin wrote: »
    It depends on whether I'm making a general point re the post or a specific one.

    I just find it goes against the grain on this type of forum. Doesn't really help out readers of the thread.


  • #173
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Nodin wrote: »
    Sorry, do you have a source for that?
    Halawa is the son of Sheikh Hussein Halawa, imam at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland in Clonskeagh, Co Dublin. 

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ebraheem-Halawa-yet-to-appear-in-court-in-Egypt.html


  • #174
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ebraheem-Halawa-yet-to-appear-in-court-in-Egypt.html


    He went to Egypt, was in a protest, and was arrested. Why are you putting him in with Jihadis?


  • #175
    BOHtox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭BOHtox


    If you have 100 million priests and only 10% of them are paedophiles, that's still only 10 million paedophiles


  • #176
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    book_seller wrote: »
    its not happening in japan and never has

    never mind the religous aspect , why is the japaneese policy so different to the EU one ?

    ive yet to read a report from a japaneese peter sutherland who called for more open borders for the purpose of reinvigorating the economy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Foreign_citizens

    "More than 2.5 million (potentially higher because of undocumented migrants) foreigners live in Japan; the number has grown by 14.9% in five years. The two largest sources of foreign citizens in Japan are 0.53 million North and South Koreans and 0.67 million Chinese followed by smaller numbers of Filipinos and Brazilians. Other nationalities include Americans, Canadians, Australians, British, Indonesians, Thais, South Africans, Nigerians, Iranians, Russians, Turks, Indians and European Union nationals."

    ...and our own osarasun (hope I have spelled it correctly!).



    And ere is a call for open border, came up first on a search of "immigration into Japan" http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2013/07/21/drastic-change-in-immigration-policy-off-the-japanese-election-agenda/

    And it couldnt ave been alone, because the government is seriously considering a large increase of migrant quotas: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/03/14/national/politics-diplomacy/japan-may-boost-immigrant-numbers/#.VAxoMPldXwg


  • #177
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    Radly wrote: »
    Serious question. Why do you very often edit out someones post when you quote it?
    It makes for difficult reading in thread when you have to keep scrolling back to see the post in question.

    It's his way of trying to pick at points.


  • #178
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Nodin wrote: »
    He went to Egypt, was in a protest, and was arrested. Why are you putting him in with Jihadis?

    A Muslim Brotherhood protest, no less. Here he is addressing the crowd:



  • #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    A Muslim Brotherhood protest, no less. Here he is addressing the crowd:

    Yep. Why are you including him with Jihadis?


  • #180
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    A Muslim Brotherhood protest, no less. Here he is addressing the crowd:


    Is this the family that the media were trying to spin off as a harmless bunch when the truth was they were right in the thick of it?


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  • #181
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    Is this the family that the media were trying to spin off as a harmless bunch when the truth was they were right in the thick of it?

    You betcha.

    Here's the English translation: http://markhumphrys.com/halawa.html#translation


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