Ireland in WW2....

martinedwards · 07-09-2014 09:26AM #1

as a response to the Americans and WW2 thread......

I've been researching my grandfathers war history...

born Moville, ended up captaining a corvette convoy escort and then retiring because of TB back to Moville in 42

I never met him and have never heard of HIM bad mouthing the Irish situation, but my general background reading gives a different story, especially in the Navy

OK, there was the Donegal corridor which allowed the sub chaser planes to fly out of Lough Erne, but here were dozens of ships sunk and thousands of lives lost because the convoys had to come round the top of Innishowen to Derry rather than straight into Galway or Cork

the fact that Ireland refused the Navy access to it's ports meant an extra two days each way for a convoy, and at the pit of the Battle of the Atlantic, that was a LOT, especially when Germany controlled from the top of Scandinavia to Gibraltar (as Spain were also Neutral)

and All the while Ireland enjoyed the contents of the convoys.....

plenty of fuel.... Ok, maybe not plenty, but the was still oil available, and ALL of it came from the convoys that were denied a safe haven in Irish ports.

Oh yeah, add in the German embassy in Dublin that stayed open and active throughout the war collecting and relaying intelligence to Hitler.

there were thousands of brave Irish who joined the Allied forces and fought, but I have heard it said that Ireland's neutrality may have added a year to the duration of the war.

whatcha think?

Manic Moran · 07-09-2014 09:43AM

Wouldn't have hurt the economy either, be it by all the servicemen with time and money to kill, or from the Marshall Plan, which would have seen, as a combatant, Ireland get a much larger boost than it did.

That said, domestic political stupidity probably forced the government's hand to maintain a position of not allying with the UK.

fedor.2. · 07-09-2014 09:46AM

Really embarrassing period in our history, to be honest

wazky · 07-09-2014 09:49AM

fedor.2. wrote: »

Really embarrassing period in our history, to be honest

Yeah, we should have joined up with Hitler and the lads, the US of A and Co wouldn't have had a hope then.

Buona Fortuna · 07-09-2014 09:53AM

martinedwards wrote: »

the fact that Ireland refused the Navy access to it's ports meant an extra two days each way for a convoy, and at the pit of the Battle of the Atlantic, that was a LOT, especially when Germany controlled from the top of Scandinavia to Gibraltar (as Spain were also Neutral)

Oh yeah, add in the German embassy in Dublin that stayed open and active throughout the war collecting and relaying intelligence to Hitler.

whatcha think?

I don't think that Ireland had the wherewithall to fight a war at that time. As a neutral it had an extremely difficult balancing act to follow.

and All the while Ireland enjoyed the contents of the convoys.....

plenty of fuel.... Ok, maybe not plenty, but the was still oil available, and ALL of it came from the convoys that were denied a safe haven in Irish ports.

Ireland had to import its own goods from overseas. Given the U-Boat war, the USA would deliver no closer than Lisbon!

When the war broke out Ireland had to get its own mercantile marine - because no one else was going to do it for us.

there were thousands of brave Irish who joined the Allied forces and fought, but I have heard it said that Ireland's neutrality may have added a year to the duration of the war.

We don't know why they joined up. I'd suggest that very few were looking to "fight a just war". I think the majority would have joined because there were no jobs at home, better money, or for a bit of adventure.

A year? I have my doubts. When you look at some of the mistakes the major players made I don't see Ireland's neutrality as that much of an issue.

mikemac1 · 07-09-2014 10:10AM

Cork would have been bombed to smithereens

P_1 · 07-09-2014 10:16AM

Yes it could have been considered slightly cowardly for Ireland not to have gotten involved on the Allied side but given the lack of defensive capabilities of the Irish military at the time then I'd have to say that it was a justified cowardice. The Luftwaffe was able to bomb Dublin with relative ease during the war, and to be frank, Ireland couldn't have absorbed the sort of punishment that the UK absorbed during the war.

A Coventry style bombing on Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford and (if you excuse the pun) it would have been "Goodnight Vienna" for WW2 era Ireland.

gandalf · 07-09-2014 10:22AM

Considering we had gone through WW1, a rising, a War of Independence, a Civil War it was prudent that we remained neutral especially as fighting on the allied side could have instigated another civil war. Kepping us neutral was one of the few positive things Devalera did for this country.

That said a large number from Southern Ireland fought on the side of the allies. Numbers range from over 60,000 to 160,000.

rozeboosje · 07-09-2014 10:25AM

I'm from a little country that decided it was going to be Neutral too. And it was. Until Hitler decided otherwise and bombed the **** out of Rotterdam.

You guys were just lucky that Hitler was defeated before Ireland could become in any way interesting to the Third Reich.

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 10:28AM

my own view is that the Allies could not have won without us:D

The number of British senior commanders who were born on this island or were of Irish extraction is impressive....

Brooke (Chief of the Imperial General Staff) - Fermanagh
Dill - Antrim
Alexander - Tyrone
Monty - Antrim
Admiral Cunningham - Dublin
Pyle - Dublin
JOE Vandeleur - Clare
Saul - Wicklow

Even the Yanks with Leahy, Gavin etc had more than a few Irish in their ranks.

That said, it's not this country's proudest moment. There was no way Irish troops could have served in a British led force, but there's no reason why aircraft couldn't have been based here to help combat the u-boats, or that Canadian or US troops couldn't have been billeted here or provided with training areas.

Dev signing the book of condolence was probably the lowest point and the treatment of returning soldiers was nothing but the product of spiteful, vindictive and petty minds.

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 10:30AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Cork would have been bombed to smithereens

Unlikely - that would have required a very long over water flight (to stay out of range of the fighter defences of SW England) and the Luftwaffe pilots detested over water flying.

UCDVet · 07-09-2014 10:30AM

Eh - it's pretty hard for me to get upset about a country NOT entering a war. Honestly, the world would be a better place if more countries would just stop going to war.

Personally, I like that I can't think of any recent Irish invasions or battlefronts on foreign soil. Sure - it's hard to make great war movies - but that's a small price to pay for not killing lots and lots of people.

wazky · 07-09-2014 10:34AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Dev signing the book of condolence was probably the lowest point

All heads of the netural countries did this.

Although Ireland was far from netural really, as it supplied valuable weather reports to the Allies and any Allied pilots that landed here were quietly given back whilst German pilots were incarcerated for the entirety of the war here. Not the mention the thousands of Irish troops on the Allied side.

goz83 · 07-09-2014 10:35AM

Maybe we just thought "the brits invaded us. The yanks refused to help us. Germany has no interest in us. So fcuk them all and their little war" :pac:

Fratton Fred · 07-09-2014 10:36AM

I think Dev got it right. More by luck than by accident, but right all the same.

Signing the book of condolence was a ridiculous act by a stubborn man though.

The biggest shame is the hero worship of Sean Russell by the NGA, who would have welcomed the Nazis in with open arms.

UCDVet · 07-09-2014 10:37AM

Honest question: Didn't Dublin get bombed in WW2? Did Ireland remain neutral after the attacks?

P_1 · 07-09-2014 10:38AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Unlikely - that would have required a very long over water flight (to stay out of range of the fighter defences of SW England) and the Luftwaffe pilots detested over water flying.

To be fair a diversionary attack on, say, Plymouth would have left the Irish cities right open for attack. German bombers based in Brittany would have destroyed the cities and killed countless once you consider the lack of shelters.

goz83 · 07-09-2014 10:43AM

UCDVet wrote: »

Honest question: Didn't Dublin get bombed in WW2? Did Ireland remain neutral after the attacks?

I think that was accidental. Was the North Strand area hit.

fergiesfolly · 07-09-2014 10:44AM

rozeboosje wrote: »

I'm from a little country that decided it was going to be Neutral too. And it was. Until Hitler decided otherwise and bombed the **** out of Rotterdam.

You guys were just lucky that Hitler was defeated before Ireland could become in any way interesting to the Third Reich.

So, Holland was neutral until it was attacked and was forced to enter the fray.
Otherwise, Holland would have stayed out of it.
The USA only became involved after Pearl Harbour, a full two years after the war started and only entered the war in Europe because of the German/ Japanese pact.
Ireland wasn't attacked and had no need to get involved.
Don't get the "guilty shame" we're supposed to feel over not entering the war.
Everyone that did had their own agenda.
And not necessarily a noble one either.

P_1 · 07-09-2014 10:44AM

UCDVet wrote: »

Honest question: Didn't Dublin get bombed in WW2? Did Ireland remain neutral after the attacks?

Yeah Terenure, the SCR and the North Strand were bombed in Dublin. Julianstown and Duleek in Meath, the Curragh in Kildare and Campile in Co Wexford were bombed too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dublin_in_World_War_II

Jawgap · 07-09-2014 10:46AM

UCDVet wrote: »

Honest question: Didn't Dublin get bombed in WW2? Did Ireland remain neutral after the attacks?

Yes and yes.

Conspiracy theory - the British 'bent' the German navigational beams leading to the Germans bombing Dublin

Conspiracy theory II - the German bombed Dublin in retaliation for Ireland providing humanitarian assistance to Belfast when it was blitzed

Probable explanation - navigational error.

P_1 wrote: »

To be fair a diversionary attack on, say, Plymouth would have left the Irish cities right open for attack. German bombers based in Brittany would have destroyed the cities and killed countless once you consider the lack of shelters.

Sorry, it never would have happened - you had radar cover all through SW England meaning any raid departing Brittany would have to stay heading west to avoid detection before turning north to attack the south coast of Ireland.

That's way beyond what the Luftwaffe were capable of doing - the one time they tried it - the attacks against the east coast of England staged from Norway, on 15 August 1940 - they got hammered losing nearly 20% of the attacking force.

pablomakaveli · 07-09-2014 11:11AM

One worrying thing i've heard from various people over here in the UK is that they were taught in school that Ireland aided the Nazi's in WW2.

I've gotten into a couple of arguments over it as well with some people who are adament it's true.

smurgen · 07-09-2014 11:20AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Wouldn't have hurt the economy either, be it by all the servicemen with time and money to kill, or from the Marshall Plan, which would have seen, as a combatant, Ireland get a much larger boost than it did.

That said, domestic political stupidity probably forced the government's hand to maintain a position of not allying with the UK.

your mindset is the problem with the american war machine.you see it as an industry.wake up.it is innocent men and women killed.it's not a game and should be avoided at all costs.

Ireland doesn't owe an explanation to ANYONE for it's behavior in world war two.We are OUR own country, we make OUR own decisions. We fought for OUR independence in blood.And we should only take to arms when we have absolutely no other option.

The_Valeyard · 07-09-2014 11:24AM

Considering the destruction of the country and division of its people after the war of Independence and Civil war (never mind WW1, or the Rising) I do not see how Ireland could have joined in the war. It Would have been ridiculous and may have caused the collapse of the nation.
Many were still bitter against the British since the wars were very fresh in theirs minds and scares real. Anyone who is trying to guilt trip us into admitting neutrality was wrong, needs a proper history lesson. It was an extremely popular move by the politicians.

Seems to be a bit of West Brit revisionist history going on, attempting to rewrite the past into a modern context.

Micky Dolenz · 07-09-2014 12:08PM

The joys of being an island meant we were harder to get too. We did absolutely the right thing by staying neutral imo.

Dev signing the book of condolences was protocol and I wouldn't read too much into it.

darced · 07-09-2014 12:16PM

This post has been deleted.

Buona Fortuna · 07-09-2014 12:17PM

I don't hold with the "shameful" episode school of thought. I don't think we had so many options.

Our neutrality was skewed towards the Allies though. Allied pilots who crash laned in Ireland were quietly assisted to the North. German pilots were inturned. Weather reports were provided and the report from Blacksod was crucial to D-Day.

rozeboosje · 07-09-2014 12:26PM

fergiesfolly wrote: »

So, Holland was neutral until it was attacked and was forced to enter the fray.
Otherwise, Holland would have stayed out of it.
The USA only became involved after Pearl Harbour, a full two years after the war started and only entered the war in Europe because of the German/ Japanese pact.
Ireland wasn't attacked and had no need to get involved.
Don't get the "guilty shame" we're supposed to feel over not entering the war.
Everyone that did had their own agenda.
And not necessarily a noble one either.

It's not about "guilty shame", it's about the realisation that "staying neutral" is a luxury that few can afford to indulge in. And while it's nothing to be ASHAMED of, it certainly isn't something to be PROUD of either.

Fratton Fred · 07-09-2014 12:31PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

One worrying thing i've heard from various people over here in the UK is that they were taught in school that Ireland aided the Nazi's in WW2.

I've gotten into a couple of arguments over it as well with some people who are adament it's true.

It must have changed since I was at school then.

oceanman · 07-09-2014 12:39PM

smurgen wrote: »

Ireland doesn't owe an explanation to ANYONE for it's behavior in world war two.We are OUR own country, we make OUR own decisions. We fought for OUR independence in blood.And we should only take to arms when we have absolutely no other option.

great post...fully agree

rozeboosje · 07-09-2014 12:46PM

oceanman wrote: »

great post...fully agree

I'm sure there are options other than participating in a peace force in places like Lebanon or Syria. For example: leave them to kill each other and pretend you're not seeing the human suffering. The fact that Irish peace-keepers are actually there trying to help shows that the position "we should only get involved when there is absolutely no other option" is not one held by the various Irish governments of the last few decades.

Ireland in WW2....

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