Americans and world war 2

Buzz lightdecade · 06-09-2014 06:46PM

RZoran wrote: »

Patriotism shocker! The Russians like to forget the parts about cooperating with the Germans while carving up Eastern European countries like Poland before the Germans back stabbed them. The neutrality pact they signed with the Japanese while the Japanese were attacking and occupying their neighbors. The tons of equipment and material that the US and British provided that helped them actually fight the war. The Brits like to forget about Munich Agreement. The French about how much collusion went on with the Germans once they were occupied. Chinese like to forget that the Americans didn't f*ck them over when they wouldn't agree to the Japanese expansion into their neighbors territory which basically brought about Pearl Harbor. So the idea that only the Americans wear rose-tinted glasses when it comes to WWII or anything is a load of nonsense. Then it is kind of obvious why views are even more skewed given the history between the countries after the war.

Can you clarify who thinks only the Americans wear rose tinted glasses?

tritium · 06-09-2014 06:46PM

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Sometimes a war is about who makes the least amount of serious mistakes. Look at Britain and the Prince of Wales and Repulse or Singapore itself, the Norway fiasco. Everyone made plenty of mistakes.

Oh I don't disagree, and most wars have their share of fiascos that get polished up as heroism afterwards, but the Nazis have a pretty solid back catalogue of screw ups, hell even the final solution was one- a nation that loved the super weapon drove away many of the minds that might have given them the ultimate super weapon

archer22 · 06-09-2014 06:47PM

I dont think its accurate to say Germany started World War two.The German attack on Poland was a regional war.It was Britain and France declaring war on Germany that made it into a world war as it expanded the conflict to western Europe and dragged their world wide empires into it.
As for could Germany have defeated Russia?..almost certainly if Barbarossa had not been delayed.Mussolini's stupid pointless attack on Greece messed everything up.When the Greeks started beating the Italian's Hitler postponed Barbarossa and went to the aid of Italy.If Barbarosa had started on time the Germans would more than likely have achieved their objectives in Russia before the brutal winter set in.As it was they were only 20 miles short of Moscow.
Hitler's war losing mistakes were accepting Italy as an ally and showing loyalty to it when it got into trouble.In contrast to the Italians who later on were happy to abandon and even declare war on Germany when they saw it would be to their advantage.

wnolan1992 · 06-09-2014 07:03PM

I reckon we should just blame the entire thing on Britain.

If they hadn't declared war in 1914, Germany would have stayed neutral and WW1 would have been a localised conflict between Austria and the Serbs. Then you wouldn't have had the ridiculous Treaty of Versailles which led to the rise of Hitler and then to WWII and then the Cold War and all the associated proxy wars.

F*ck sake Britain!

:P

RZoran · 06-09-2014 07:03PM

Buzz lightdecade wrote: »

Can you clarify who thinks only the Americans wear rose tinted glasses?

Go look in a mirror

Buzz lightdecade wrote: »

I get the impression a lot of Americans think they won world war 2, in the sense that they were the most important ally in defeating Germany. If any one country beat Germany it wold be Russia, they were by far the most important ally in defeating Germany.

UCDVet · 06-09-2014 07:45PM

I don't think most Americans really have an informed opinion on anything about WW2. That's not meant to be an insult, I just don't think the average American knows much about the topic. What they do know, they know from movies....and that's pretty much a pile of b.s.

Still, if you look at it from a political/economic perspective, it's hard to argue that they didn't 'come out on top'. They emerged as a world power and went on to become the dominate military superpower. I think they spend something like 8x as much money on their military than the next country? I don't remember, but it is staggering.

Buzz lightdecade · 06-09-2014 07:48PM

RZoran wrote: »

Go look in a mirror

My post implies I beleve many Americans wear rose tinted glasses. When did I say no other nationalities wear rose tinted glasses?

creolebelle · 06-09-2014 07:54PM

Well we helped. WW II was kind of our last "noble" war. The way my grand parents talked about it made it sound thrilling and romantic.

wendell borton · 06-09-2014 07:55PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

But then they would have to face the might of the Irish Air Corp

The corp did have a few hurricanes and even a spitfire to be fair back then, what have we got today three bisjets.

wnolan1992 · 06-09-2014 07:57PM

creolebelle wrote: »

Well we helped. WW II was kind of our last "noble" war. The way my grand parents talked about it made it sound thrilling and romantic.

Yeah, slaughtering a generation of young men for the sins of their government. How romantic! Makes you feel all gooey inside doesn't it?

duckcfc · 06-09-2014 07:58PM

Who gives a flying **** about who won. Its who created the warbin the first place is what we should be worrying about because their behind every war that rages through this planet today and have caused nearly all the wars going back to the 1700s. The Rothschild family! Everyone from Stalin, hiltler and to the present day bush and Obama are just all puppets for this family. Its time this banking family where took down and the banking system that holds us all in debt be finished with. Will it ever happen, not in a million years because its gone to far to be changed

Sunnyisland · 06-09-2014 08:01PM

duckcfc wrote: »

Who gives a flying **** about who won. Its who created the warbin the first place is what we should be worrying about because their behind every war that rages through this planet today and have caused nearly all the wars going back to the 1700s. The Rothschild family! Everyone from Stalin, hiltler and to the present day bush and Obama are just all puppets for this family. Its time this banking family where took down and the banking system that holds us all in debt be finished with. Will it ever happen, not in a million years because its gone to far to be changed

I knew it was the bankers and we have an elite squadron of them right here...

Buona Fortuna · 06-09-2014 08:04PM

creolebelle wrote: »

Well we helped. WW II was kind of our last "noble" war. The way my grand parents talked about it made it sound thrilling and romantic.

Hummm I think the only "noble" war was the American Civil War - absolute carnage.

dukeraoul · 06-09-2014 08:06PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't think most Americans really have an informed opinion on anything about WW2. That's not meant to be an insult, I just don't think the average American knows much about the topic. What they do know, they know from movies....and that's pretty much a pile of b.s.

Still, if you look at it from a political/economic perspective, it's hard to argue that they didn't 'come out on top'. They emerged as a world power and went on to become the dominate military superpower. I think they spend something like 8x as much money on their military than the next country? I don't remember, but it is staggering.

Ha...fairly funny comment considering many of us have grandfathers/ uncles who actually fought in the war. Thats a lot more than most Irish can say!

Iwasfrozen · 06-09-2014 08:09PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I don't think most Americans really have an informed opinion on anything about WW2. That's not meant to be an insult, I just don't think the average American knows much about the topic. What they do know, they know from movies....and that's pretty much a pile of b.s.

Still, if you look at it from a political/economic perspective, it's hard to argue that they didn't 'come out on top'. They emerged as a world power and went on to become the dominate military superpower. I think they spend something like 8x as much money on their military than the next country? I don't remember, but it is staggering.

Yeah but it's really not that much as a % of their gdp.

RZoran · 06-09-2014 08:09PM

Buzz lightdecade wrote: »

My post implies I beleve many Americans wear rose tinted glasses. When did I say no other nationalities wear rose tinted glasses?

You really trying to play semantics? You win! I am sure this is not just some American bashing attempt.

UCDVet · 06-09-2014 08:20PM

dukeraoul wrote: »

Ha...fairly funny comment considering many of us have grandfathers/ uncles who actually fought in the war. Thats a lot more than most Irish can say!

I don't mean any disrespect but...I'd argue people who were in the war would be less likely to have an objective opinion. Nobody wants to say, 'Yeah, I was shot, lots of my friends died - but when you look at it from a larger perspective, we played a small role'

Or worse, 'Our being there didn't help much at all'

I'm not saying that's true, but I'm saying nobody wants to think that. Everyone wants to think they are fighting for a noble cause, that they are making the world a better place, that what they are doing, must be done, and that it matters.

Also, let's not forget, there was an overwhelming large amount of propaganda going around, on all sides of the war. I wouldn't expect an enlisted man to be privy to any more vital information than anyone else, but I would expect them to be exposed to a lot more pro-their-country/pro-their-army propaganda than regular citizens.

After WW2 you had the cold war. Not exactly a time for free and open exchanges of information and ideas. So, of course, it was all very 'Ra Ra Go America!'.

That covers old people who were alive around the time (the number of living WW2 vets is quite small these days). Aside from them and children of the time, you've got kids who learned about WW2 entirely from books in US public schools. That's what most American's understanding of WWII is all about.

According to this, and lots of other sources
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368482/How-ignorant-Americans-An-alarming-number-U-S-citizens-dont-know-basic-facts-country.html

Americans aren't very keen on history at all.

Again, not trying to be disrespectful, just sharing my experience

Irish Guitarist · 06-09-2014 08:22PM

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that it was won almost single-handedly by Winston Churchill who was born in America. There was a great film made about it which was amazingly accurate. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359078/

creolebelle · 06-09-2014 08:24PM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

Yeah, slaughtering a generation of young men for the sins of their government. How romantic! Makes you feel all gooey inside doesn't it?

That's not what I meant. That's the way my grand parents described it. The war had a profound effect on their lives. Both my grand fathers were very proud to serve their country. You can't deny that society doesn't add a romantic element to war, well here in the states we do. Look at films like pear harbor, from here to eternity, atonement, etc.

creolebelle · 06-09-2014 08:28PM

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Hummm I think the only "noble" war was the American Civil War - absolute carnage.

Yes. It was a necessary one though sometimes it seems like it never ended

wnolan1992 · 06-09-2014 08:43PM

creolebelle wrote: »

That's not what I meant. That's the way my grand parents described it. The war had a profound effect on their lives. Both my grand fathers were very proud to serve their country. You can't deny that society doesn't give add a romantic element to war, well here in the states we do. Look at films like pear harbor, from here to eternity, atonement, etc.

Oh I wasn't trying to have a pop at you personally, I get that on an individual level there's a desire to feel like you were fighting for what's right and all the associated feelings with that. And there's no doubt that Hitler was an evil f*ck that needed to be stopped.

But from an objective point of view, around 60+ million people died in WWII. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say probably 95% of those were just guys fighting for their country. The vilification of Axis soldiers in popular culture to this day is rather sickening to me when, realistically, they were just being told "Defend your position. Attack this town. Desert and you'll be shot.", so I find it hard to look on WWII with any sense of "Aw, the greatest generation!" sentiment.

Governments make all the decisions. Ordinary men and women just trying to feed their family or defend their country pay the price for those decisions.

retalivity · 06-09-2014 08:49PM

duckcfc wrote: »

Who gives a flying **** about who won. Its who created the warbin the first place is what we should be worrying about because their behind every war that rages through this planet today and have caused nearly all the wars going back to the 1700s. The Rothschild family! Everyone from Stalin, hiltler and to the present day bush and Obama are just all puppets for this family. Its time this banking family where took down and the banking system that holds us all in debt be finished with. Will it ever happen, not in a million years because its gone to far to be changed

Well done, We are now post-godwin.

UCDVet · 06-09-2014 08:51PM

retalivity wrote: »

Well done, We are now post-godwin.

Does godwin apply in a WW2 thread?

Buzz lightdecade · 06-09-2014 09:19PM

RZoran wrote: »

You really trying to play semantics? You win! I am sure this is not just some American bashing attempt.

That's not semantics at all. It's pointing out your claim of what I said is simply false. I actually do believe other nationalities have "rose tinted glasses" in certain areas. So try to read people's posts properly and not add your own imaginary elements.

dr.bollocko · 06-09-2014 09:24PM

RZoran wrote: »

You really trying to play semantics? You win! I am sure this is not just some American bashing attempt.

They don't let us post pictures. Semantics are all we get to play with.

Micky Dolenz · 06-09-2014 11:55PM

If Japan hadn't attacked, it would have been interesting to see how long if ever the US would have jumped in. The supply lines to Europe and Russia were regularly attacked by German U boats.

It was only ever going to be a matter of time before they were directly involved.

frostyjacks · 07-09-2014 12:09AM

America only played a support role in WWII. Germany v Russia was the main act. Same for Britain, by the time of D Day the Wermacht was on it's last legs.

Iwasfrozen · 07-09-2014 12:16AM

frostyjacks wrote: »

America only played a support role in WWII. Germany v Russia was the main act. Same for Britain, by the time of D Day the Wermacht was on it's last legs.

This is true but if it hadn't been for the lend-lease programme the Soviets would have fallen long before D-day.

Frank Lee Midere · 07-09-2014 12:22AM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If Japan hadn't attacked, it would have been interesting to see how long if ever the US would have jumped in. The supply lines to Europe and Russia were regularly attacked by German U boats.

It was only ever going to be a matter of time before they were directly involved.

But. They didn't get involved until the japanese attacked. And then Germany declared war.

It boils my piss when American right wing TV or radio shows rant about Neville Chamberlin. How Chamberlin was an appeaser. How Nasser, Hussein etc. are hitlers and we don't want another Chamberlin. Chamberlin went to war 2 years and 3 months before the US. The US not only had to be attacked by Japan it had to wait three days before Germany declared war on it. War was declared on Japan on that "day of infamy". If wiser heads, in Germany had prevailed, the US would never have gone to war. Congress didn't want war. If it did it would have declared war prior to 1941. The senate didn't want war. If it did it would have declared war before 1941.

The Nazis look liked they had won by 1941.

Instead nazi Germany had to declare war against the US.

Skylinehead · 07-09-2014 12:25AM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

But from an objective point of view, around 60+ million people died in WWII. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say probably 95% of those were just guys fighting for their country.

It's actually worse than that - 66% odd of those 60+ million weren't even fighting, they were civilians.

The vilification of Axis soldiers in popular culture to this day is rather sickening to me when, realistically, they were just being told "Defend your position. Attack this town. Desert and you'll be shot.", so I find it hard to look on WWII with any sense of "Aw, the greatest generation!" sentiment.

Agree with this. Most Wehrmacht soldiers were no different to their British/US counterparts. There were war crimes committed, absolutely, but the majority of those were at the hands of the SS.

Americans and world war 2

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