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"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

  • 04-09-2014 10:45PM
    #1
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭


    This is a quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson. I personally agree with it. If a law is unjust it should be broken. For example if a man is gay in a country where it is illegal you can't possibly expect him to obey that can you? The only issue with this view imo is what is considered unjust is very subjective. Do you think the law comes before what you consider to be just or that personal ideas of justice should come before the law of the land?

    Edited for clarity: Does legality go hand in hand with morality. Is it ever immoral not to break a law?

    Further edit: My thinking here is in relation to laws retrospectively seen as unjust slavery ect and laws a sizeable amount of people consider unjust. NOTHING to do with property tax or any monetary regulation in Ireland today.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    JustAddWater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭JustAddWater


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    This is a quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson. I personally agree with it. If a law is unjust it should be broken. For example if a man is gay in a country where it is illegal you can't possibly expect him to obey that can you? The only issue with this view imo is what is considered unjust is very subjective. Do you think the law comes before what you consider to be just or that personal ideas of justice should come before the law of the land?

    Great, let's all be selective and follow laws only when it suits us


  • #3
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Are you Ben Gilroy?


  • #4
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    JustAddWater wrote: »
    Great, let's all be selective and follow laws only when it suits us

    Well put it this way if you were black (maybe you are) and the law said you could be bought and sold under the one drop rule would you follow it?


  • #5
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    JustAddWater wrote: »
    Great, let's all be selective and follow laws only when it suits us

    Fair enough. I'll run with that. Good post, good suggestion.


  • #6
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well put it this way if you were black (maybe you are) and the law said you could be bought and sold under the one drop rule would you follow it?

    More than likely because you would be in chains and slavers weren't usually ones for taking the opinions of their workforce...


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  • #7
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    wazky wrote: »
    More than likely cause you would be in chains and slavers weren't usually ones for taking the opinions of their workforce...

    But you certainly wouldn't respect it I hope.


  • #8
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But you certainly wouldn't respect it I hope.

    I probably wouldn't be fully committed to the idea no, I'm missing you point? I don't like a law so therefore I don't follow it?


  • #9
    JustAddWater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭JustAddWater


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well put it this way if you were black (maybe you are) and the law said you could be bought and sold under the one drop rule would you follow it?

    I wouldn't like it but there are ways to have laws changed/challenged

    You can't just decide upon yourself that you personally don't like the law therefore you aren't going to follow it

    From tomorrow, I've decided traffic lights are unjust...


  • #10
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    wazky wrote: »
    I probably wouldn't be fully committed to the idea no, I'm missing you point? I don't like a law so therefore I don't follow it?

    I mean if the law is unjust then it shouldn't be obeyed. That's all.


  • #11
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I mean if the law is unjust then it shouldn't be obeyed. That's all.

    Who decides if its unjust?


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  • #12
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    JustAddWater wrote: »
    I wouldn't like it but there are ways to have laws changed/challenged

    You can't just decide upon yourself that you personally don't like the law therefore you aren't going to follow it

    From tomorrow, I've decided traffic lights are unjust...

    Sorry but I disagree if the law is a tool of apartheid for instance you most certainly shouldn't follow it. Are you comparing traffic lights to slavery? Some laws are more unjust than others.


  • #13
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I mean if the law is unjust then it shouldn't be obeyed. That's all.

    So if I decided that outlawing beastality is unjust, I can just go out and take my pick of the nearest sheep without fear of repercussions?


  • #14
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    wazky wrote: »
    I probably wouldn't be fully committed to the idea no, I'm missing you point? I don't like a law so therefore I don't follow it?

    If it is unjust. I mean it's hardly rocket science, this.


  • #15
    The_Pretender
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 594 ✭✭✭The_Pretender


    One person on their own will make fcuk all difference. If you think a law is unjust, then find out what other people think and campaign to have it changed. Only if enough people are in favour of it should something be done. People can think thry are correct in the way they think, but it could be very different to how the geeral population thinks. And of course once it doesn't upset anyone's basic human rights.


  • #16
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Who decides if its unjust?

    That's the point I was making. It's highly subjective but if a law involves the denigration of another person then I think most would think it unjust.


  • #17
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    wazky wrote: »
    So if I decided that outlawing beastality is unjust, I can just go out and take my pick of the nearest sheep without fear of repercussions?

    Yeah. But then you would go to jail. And we would laugh.


  • #18
    Putin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭Putin


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Who decides if its unjust?

    Probably an individuals own personal moral code and sense of justice & fairness.


  • #19
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    If it is unjust. I mean it's hardly rocket science, this.

    Who decides what is unjust and what is not?

    A load a sh1te if I ever heard it, in Ireland anyway we live in free country and dont have to worry about being enslaved or having our hands cut off if we are homosexual.


  • #20
    The Peanut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭The Peanut


    I'll have a look at this thread in the morning and view the carnage.


  • #21
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    wazky wrote: »
    Who decides what is unjust and what is not?

    A load a sh1te if I ever heard it, in Ireland anyway we live in free country and dont have to worry about being enslaved or having our hands cut off if we are homosexual.

    But what if we did? For instance Ireland wasn't always a progressive country (some would argue it's not now).


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  • #22
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,606 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I mean if the law is unjust then it shouldn't be obeyed. That's all.

    Unjust laws tend to be changed eventually.Laws such as slavery were accepted at the time so weren't considered unjust.
    Our abortion laws are probably a good example of unjust.


  • #23
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Given the a majority of law is either from European Directives, The European Court of human rights or crafted from the law reform commission (composed of academics) and that studies have shown that the legislative branch rarely if ever inquire about the laws that are passed - the question should instead be re-phrased into how to we get to pass laws that are reflective of the people's public good instead of the elites/lobbyists.


  • #24
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    Democracy depends on the law and vice-versa. And democracy only works if our loyalty to the collective is more powerful than our insistence on our own righteousness.

    I read that on a fridge magnet one time :)


  • #25
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But what if we did?

    We don't, so don't worry your pretty little head about it.

    Having to obey a traffic light or weed not being legal isn't really on the same level is it?


  • #26
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    wazky wrote: »
    We don't, so don't worry your pretty little head about it.

    Having to obey a traffic light or weed not being legal isn't really on the same level is it?

    Wazky did you ever hear of a thought experiment? Well this is one. And thanks for calling me pretty XCOXOXOXOXOOOXO


  • #27
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    kneemos wrote: »
    Our abortion laws are probably a good example of unjust.
    So the deliberate targeting for death of the unborn is unjust - I fear the goddess dike is weeping.


  • #28
    JustAddWater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭JustAddWater


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    If it is unjust. I mean it's hardly rocket science, this.

    I've decided rockets are unjust


  • #29
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    wazky wrote: »
    Who decides what is unjust and what is not?

    A load a sh1te if I ever heard it, in Ireland anyway we live in free country and dont have to worry about being enslaved or having our hands cut off if we are homosexual.

    But presumably you - since you sneer at any injustice in this or any system - would think that being enslaved or having a hand cut off is just if it is legal.

    If you don't. You agree with steddyeddy.


  • #30
    wazky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    JustAddWater wrote: »
    I've decided rockets are unjust

    I've decided that decisions are unjust.


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  • #31
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Right Wazky. Imagine a thought experiment. You have been arrested for being not very good at thought experiments. The penalty is

    1) your hands are to be cut off
    2) you are to be castrated.
    3) you are to be forced to listen to Justin bieber via a permanent ear implant.

    But before the sentence can be carried out the door is open in your cell. Do you avoid justice by running away? Or stay because who are you to challenge the law?


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