Are people who smoke weak-minded?

kneemos · 01-09-2014 08:47PM

conorh91 wrote: »

But then they're not smokers...

Uh?

Czarcasm · 01-09-2014 08:49PM

kneemos wrote: »

I maintain the OP's assertion to be wrong on the grounds that many smokers go through the very difficult process of giving up,therefore proving that smokers are indeed strong willed and strong minded.

I think the OP has some high follutin' ideas about smokers as if they are so weak minded they couldn't possibly have a choice in the matter.

The idea that personal choice is a fallacy now in an argument about personal choices says the OP has no idea what they're talking about, which is more indicative of a weak mind than a person who makes a personal choice to smoke.

mackg · 01-09-2014 08:51PM

Stinicker wrote: »

No I'm living in my grandmothers house, when she died six years ago I took possession, its an old house but in great shape having being renovated shortly before she died, its a bit in the country so I'm saving to buy a newer house and then I can rent my own older house.

I've never rented, I'm in my late twenties and I'll never rent a house, the importance of ownership of land and houses is something ingrained into me since I was a young age.

I hate smoking as my mothers and grandmothers smoking used to aggravate my childhood asthma. I guess it is from this which stems my real hatred of smoking plus the financial stupidity of it nowadays. On the flip side my grandmothers 40 a day habit sent her to an early grave and gave me a massive boost up the ladder in life.

My own mother was hospitalized on St. Stephens day 2010 and spent the following month is hospital struggling to live thanks to a 40 year 20 - 30 a day smoking habit, 5 independent doctors gave her a stern warning that if she continued to smoke she wouldn't see her 60th birthday. A month in intensive care meant she was isolated from the world and couldn't hardly breathe never mind smoke, when she came out she never again touched a cigarette, she smashed all the ashtrays in the house one day in a fit of rage when she was so exhausted and out of breath whilst hanging out the washing on the clothes line. She thankfully made a great recovery and is less reliant on her inhaler now as her lungs repair and cleanse themselves.

My mothers biggest regret in life she says was ever putting a cigarette into her mouth and she has €17.5k saved since quitting and estimates that she wasted around €200k to €250k inflation adjusted over her lifetime on cigarettes alone.

I also inherited my hatred of alcohol from my parents in that my grandmother was a raging alcoholic but surprisingly it was the cigarettes which killed her afterwards. My 2nd grandmother smoked 60 woodbines and later 60 major when woodbines went off the market, she was a very moderate drinker but it was the drink which led her to trip and have an accident on New Years Eve whilst walking home from the pub and she froze to death of Hypothermia aged 64.

My uncle destroyed his life with alcohol when he drove drunk and killed a pedestrian and almost a second person. She spent six months in Jail and got banned from driving for 20 years. He lost his girlfriend, his successful business and shortly afterwards the sight of one eye and has only 40% vision in the other. He is now in his mid fifties an obese lonely sad figure drawing a blind pension with nothing in his life except Alcohol which despite everything he still drinks himself sober.

My sister is in her thirties, renting €150/week, smoking 30 a day, her boyfriend is an alcoholic, smokes 30 a day himself and both of them will go out every friday and saturday night to the pub and one or two midweek nights too. I reckon between cigarettes, alcohol and drink that they waste over €400 a week which is more than my sisters whole salary as she earns only around €9.50/hour. Her boyfriend despite his alcoholism brings in around the same and its a fair disgrace how they manage their money.

Twice last year and again this year she tried to get my father to buy her a house but I had to intervene and told it straight out in a huge family row that until she appreciates the value of money she won't get a bob from my parents both of whom agree with me and were encouraging me to buy but I refuse to get into debt whilst I have a roof of my own already.

I can understand renting if you need a place and can't get a mortgage or are not stable financially. However anyone who rents, smokes and drinks with a small salary really needs a good hard look at themselves. I know so many people who claim to be broke and they probably are but if they copped on and gave up their addictions they'd have plenty money.

Why does anyone rent? I mean we all get a free house don't we?

Shakespeare's Sister · 01-09-2014 08:51PM

Stinicker wrote: »

haha, no I'm living in my grandmothers house, when she died six years ago I took possession, its an old house but in great shape having being renovated shortly before she died, its a bit in the country so I'm saving to buy a newer house and then I can rent my own older house.

I've never rented, I'm in my late twenties and I'll never rent a house, the importance of ownership of land and houses is something ingrained into me since I was a young age.

So you have the luxury of not having to rent. I see. Most people don't have that luxury. What if you have to move away? Just buy a house is it?

On the flip side my grandmothers 40 a day habit sent her to an early grave and gave me a massive boost up the ladder in life.

Sociopathic.

Stupid to hate alcohol because of alcoholics too. My grandfather was a raging alcoholic but the rest of us are sensible enough to know drinking alcohol in and of itself doesn't make you an alcoholic.

01-09-2014 08:52PM

If a smoker desperately wants to give up but is unable to do so then I guess that could be considered weak-mindedness.
But some people smoke because they enjoy smoking and do not want to give up, and I don't see how that could be considered weak-mindedness really. Yeah, it's bad for you but then so are lots of things in life.

Shakespeare's Sister · 01-09-2014 08:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

some people smoke because they enjoy smoking and do not want to give up, and I don't see how that could be considered weak-mindedness really. Yeah, it's bad for you but then so are lots of things in life.

I don't know that any of them are as bad as smoking though.
I'm not lecturing - I have the odd smoke myself, but I don't understand when people make out it's not that dangerous in some situations.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 08:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If a smoker desperately wants to give up but is unable to do so then I guess that could be considered weak-mindedness.
But some people smoke because they enjoy smoking and do not want to give up, and I don't see how that could be considered weak-mindedness really. Yeah, it's bad for you but then so are lots of things in life.

As they try to substitute denial out and enjoyment in - it's actually just a distraction. Many people with much worse addictions will also claim to enjoy the addiction, but that's only because they're in denial in the first place. If all else fails with reason, just say you're happy with it - works for religious people too.

Czarcasm · 01-09-2014 09:04PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't know that any of them are as bad as smoking though.
I'm not lecturing - I have the odd smoke myself, but I don't understand when people make out it's not that dangerous in some situations.

Well, people who completely refuse to acknowledge the risks, there's really no point arguing, but those people are merely the other extreme of the OP who asserts that people who choose to smoke must be intellectually inferior in some way.

The same subjective judgment could be made of people who engage in any type of life threatening behaviour, such as jumping from aeroplanes and depending on your parachute working, to stop you from dying, or much worse IMO leaving you in a permanent vegetative state through injury.

There are risks involved in any activity, and what any person is prepared to view as acceptable risk, isn't always necessarily an indication that they are weak minded or stupid. That's a subjective judgment formed by another person based on their experience, or indeed lack thereof.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:05PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Well, people who completely refuse to acknowledge the risks, there's really no point arguing, but those people are merely the other extreme of the OP who asserts that people who choose to smoke must be intellectually inferior in some way.

The same subjective judgment could be made of people who engage in any type of life threatening behaviour, such as jumping from aeroplanes and depending on your parachute working, to stop you from dying, or much worse IMO leaving you in a permanent vegetative state through injury.

There are risks involved in any activity, and what any person is prepared to view as acceptable risk, isn't always necessarily an indication that they are weak minded or stupid. That's a subjective judgment formed by another person based on their experience, or indeed lack thereof.

This is precisely the denial I've been referring to throughout the entire thread.

The Backwards Man · 01-09-2014 09:05PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

As they try to substitute denial out and enjoyment in - it's actually just a distraction. Many people with much worse addictions will also claim to enjoy the addiction, but that's only because they're in denial in the first place. If all else fails with reason, just say you're happy with it - works for religious people too.

So what you proposing be done?

Or are you just raving?

Czarcasm · 01-09-2014 09:06PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

As they try to substitute denial out and enjoyment in - it's actually just a distraction. Many people with much worse addictions will also claim to enjoy the addiction, but that's only because they're in denial in the first place. If all else fails with reason, just say you're happy with it - works for religious people too.

So if someone tells you they enjoy something, you substitute in denial, not them.

01-09-2014 09:07PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

I don't know that any of them are as bad as smoking though.
I'm not lecturing - I have the odd smoke myself, but I don't understand when people make out it's not that dangerous in some situations.

Well there's heroin, meth etc.....ok, they're extreme (and illegal) examples but still!

And while alcohol is not as addictive as cigarettes, I would imagine the effects of alcoholism for those who do become addicted (and their families) could be worse than the effects of smoking.

I completely agree that it's silly to pretend that smoking is harmless. But if someone recognises the health risks and makes an informed choice to smoke then I wouldn't think of that as being weak minded. Whereas the OP seems to think all smokers = weak minded. I do smoke but I don't do it regularly (haven't had a cigarette since about two months ago, I'd say). I don't consider myself weak minded for enjoying it every so often.

Stinicker · 01-09-2014 09:07PM

Rothmans wrote: »

You can hardly blame people for not living with their parents until they're 50!

I see nothing wrong with living at home when single or for financial reasons, in many European countries it is the norm up into the late thirties or even forties. Italians are famed for this. Irish society expects you to leave home at 17 or 18 to go to college and then never return to the nest, rent or get a ball and chain around your neck for the next thirty years for an overpriced shoebox. This was the attitude which drove thousands into debt here.

Another problem I found was the attitude of some women towards lads like myself who were living at home in that we were considered losers and mammys boys to be still at home, this was very prevelent around the boom years but is less now thankfully, and I think the reccession was a great thing in some ways in that those living beyond their means were brought back down to earth and those who were sensible can now take advantage without the legacy of debt, farmers once considered idiots and dirt in the boom times are once again the backbone of the country. Alot of people got brought down a few notches and it was no harm at all and those of us who kept the head are now is pole position. Its like the nerdy kid in school usually ends up rich wheras the jock popular lad ends up broke and in a dead beat job later on, many of the hot girls we all chased around secondary school are single mothers and on welfare now, wheras the geeky shy girls bloomed into the real women once they left school.

This is a long post but basically my point is about maturity, growing up and taking responsibility. I'm my late twenties but I've been told sometimes that I'm like an old man of 50 with some of my viewpoints and ways of doing things.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:09PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

So what you proposing be done?

Or are you just raving?

You're probably the best poster for soundbites on AH - as you tend to punctuate most threads with sarcasm. Speaking of Czarcasm:

Czarcasm wrote: »

So if someone tells you they enjoy something, you substitute in denial, not them.

Entirely depends on what that "something" is, isn't it?

Denial statement #2.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 01-09-2014 09:09PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'm afraid to say it looks as if you do possess a weak sense of self-will, judgement or conviction. Whether you find it offensive is neither here nor there - we have to deal with substantive points and not emotional distractions.

Again, you fallaciously brought up alcohol - when we all know only a small minority of people succumb to an addiction worth the name. The fact you happily and openly concede you don't want to give them up in light of the overburdening weight of evidence suggests you're in denial about their effects. One can only draw the conclusion you lack judgement (as the correct judgement is to abstain from their use), as well as the self-will to stop yourself committing this damage.

Again offensive. You do not know me. My judgement is perfectly functioning and often considered superior to many. My convictions are certainly strong. Weak minded I am not. I enjoy a cigarette. Other people enjoy things I consider dangerous and that I can't comprehend any rational person doing but I would never have the audacity to call them weak minded.
You choose to ignore the substantive point that I said I choose to smoke. I enjoy smoking and have done for over 50 years. I am now in my 70s, visit a doctor once a year at my own expense just for a check up, have never been in hospital, am perfectly healthy, fit and very active. I think people whom allow themselves to become overweight are probably weak minded in your eyes as well! Please please do not try to label people you know nothing about? OK you abhor smoking and I respect your opinion and right to that opinion but do not personalise it by branding those who smoke as you have just done.

I fear the door here will pay more attention to me on this than you - who it would seem is the one being emotional on the issue rather than subjective.

Shakespeare's Sister · 01-09-2014 09:11PM

Stinicker wrote: »

the geeky shy girls bloomed into the real women once they left school.

As opposed to... "fake" women?

This is a long post but basically my point is about maturity, growing up and taking responsibility. I'm my late twenties but I've been told sometimes that I'm like an old man of 50 with some of my viewpoints and ways of doing things.

Aye. I get where they're coming from. It's also not very mature not to accept the reality that people have to rent, including yourself if you ever have to emigrate.

con___manx1 · 01-09-2014 09:13PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I firmly believe only sensible people would answer this question in the affirmative.

Let's take a look at the evidence.

They probably succumbed to smoking or continue to smoke for one of three main reasons:
Peer pressure

Lack of willpower to refuse/give them up

Psychological crutch

Therefore, smoking is premised on being weak and defective in some way. This is despite the fact smokers know they'll smell putrid and noxious around others, but they're willing to sacrifice this self-respect to maintain their habit for one (or all) of the reasons listed above.

Evidently, this will be considered an offensive analysis of their addiction, but while they may be offended, this does not make a good argument against this position. Seated in evidence as my post is, shouldn't we just accept it boils down to being weaker in mind than those who a) can cope with problems without psychological crutches and b) are strong enough to refuse them when offered.

In addition, there's a reason why some people give them up and some don't. Blaming it as an "addiction" appears, to me at least, to be a cop out.

A lot of doctors and nurses smoke. The reason being there job is very stressful . I wouldn't say there weak minded or stupid people.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:17PM

Van Tender Wallflower wrote: »

Again offensive. You do not know me. My judgement is perfectly functioning and often considered superior to many. My convictions are certainly strong. Weak minded I am not. I enjoy a cigarette. Other people enjoy things I consider dangerous and that I can't comprehend any rational person doing but I would never have the audacity to call them weak minded.

Schizophrenic people believe their judgement is perfectly functioning too (indeed some would harbour the superiority complex as well), should we believe schizophrenics?

You quoted my post yet didn't seem to read it properly. I didn't doubt your sense of conviction - I simply inferred it was faulty.

You keep telling me you enjoy cigarettes...it's getting exhausting at this stage because it's pretty clear that after 50 years you enjoy them. I'm not contesting your enjoyment.

I said you've replaced denial with enjoyment, and I stand behind that view.

Shakespeare's Sister · 01-09-2014 09:18PM

The harm caused by smoking wasn't known about when Srameen took up smoking though.

roadrunner16 · 01-09-2014 09:18PM

smash wrote: »

Just because someone doesn't want to give them up it doesn't mean they're weak minded. It just means they don't want to give them up!

why would someone want to keep smoking ?

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:19PM

con___manx1 wrote: »

A lot of doctors and nurses smoke. The reason being there job is very stressful . I wouldn't say there weak minded or stupid people.

Thousands of jobs are very stressful, most of which are not in the medical profession. I fail to see your point.

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

The harm caused by smoking wasn't known about when Srameen took up smoking though.

Well, I've just informed Srameen, will he now continue?

Shakespeare's Sister · 01-09-2014 09:20PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Well, I've just informed Srameen, will he now continue?

But you can't accuse someone of being weak-minded for taking up smoking when they didn't know the risks.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:23PM

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

But you can't accuse someone of being weak-minded for taking up smoking when they didn't know the risks.

I understand your position but it's a double-edged sword. Weakness to begin and weakness in the failure to quit.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 01-09-2014 09:26PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Schizophrenic people believe their judgement is perfectly functioning too (indeed some would harbour the superiority complex as well), should we believe schizophrenics?

You quoted my post yet didn't seem to read it properly. I didn't doubt your sense of conviction - I simply inferred it was faulty.

You keep telling me you enjoy cigarettes...it's getting exhausting at this stage because it's pretty clear that after 50 years you enjoy them. I'm not contesting your enjoyment.

I said you've replaced denial with enjoyment, and I stand behind that view.

I think the denial is on your end, as you refuse to accept the points made and just cherry pick the portions that suit you. Again, nothing about my conviction is faulty - only your erroneous assumptions about me are faulty. Stand by all you like, as it won't change an iota of the truth.
I'm not sure what your intentions with the thread are but it has failed miserably.

Bye!!!

kneemos · 01-09-2014 09:29PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Schizophrenic people believe their judgement is perfectly functioning too (indeed some would harbour the superiority complex as well), should we believe schizophrenics?

You quoted my post yet didn't seem to read it properly. I didn't doubt your sense of conviction - I simply inferred it was faulty.

You keep telling me you enjoy cigarettes...it's getting exhausting at this stage because it's pretty clear that after 50 years you enjoy them. I'm not contesting your enjoyment.

I said you've replaced denial with enjoyment, and I stand behind that view.

As an ex smoker I have indeed sometimes uttered the words "I enjoy them"when someone told me to quit,and it probably is denial.
People are young when they start smoking,very few past their teens start up.So I would call it stupidity of youth rather than poor judgement.We're not good at making choices with our undeveloped brains at that age.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:34PM

kneemos wrote: »

As an ex smoker I have indeed sometimes uttered the words "I enjoy them"when someone told me to quit,and it probably is denial.
People are young when they start smoking,very few past their teens start up.So I would call it stupidity of youth rather than poor judgement.We're not good at making choices with our undeveloped brains at that age.

Well I'm glad we've got at least one honest poster on here tonight. Obviously, people will jump to terms such as "offensive" (I even prefaced my introduction with a warning of it), but this is never a sufficient argument against a given position. Dampening down the severity of a position by referring to enjoyment is an attempt by the smoker to avert responsibility and the truth - which is why they get so offended when the truth bumps into their happy reality.

Czarcasm · 01-09-2014 09:39PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

This is precisely the denial I've been referring to throughout the entire thread.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Entirely depends on what that "something" is, isn't it?

Denial statement #2.

Where is this denial you speak of? Do you think I am unaware of the facts of choosing to smoke?

I understand the consequences and possible risks perfectly. I acknowledge that those consequences and possible risks exist, and I am not in denial about them.

Denial would be if I was to claim smoking poses no risk whatsoever. I never made that claim, and for you to suggest that I am in denial because I enjoy something that you don't, is nothing short of showing the arrogance of a weak mind that finds it necessary to rationalize a behaviour they don't understand.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Schizophrenic people believe their judgement is perfectly functioning too (indeed some would harbour the superiority complex as well), should we believe schizophrenics?

How much do you know about schizophrenia?

Never mind, rhetorical question. The fact you'd even try to wedge in mental illness to shore up your poor argument is indicative of weak minded ignorance.

No doubt you'll be arrogant enough to prove my point and claim you're not ignorant about schizophrenia. That would be a proper demonstration of the concept of denial.

I said you've replaced denial with enjoyment, and I stand behind that view.

Back to square one.

I'm out.

blade1 · 01-09-2014 09:49PM

smash wrote: »

Just because someone doesn't want to give them up it doesn't mean they're weak minded. It just means they don't want to give them up!

Exactly!
I'm off them nearly 8 months now and I only gave them up not because I wanted to but because I felt I had to!
Coughing and wheezing and constantly trying to clear my chest is not a nice way to spend everyday.

wretcheddomain · 01-09-2014 09:54PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Where is this denial you speak of? Do you think I am unaware of the facts of choosing to smoke?

I understand the consequences and possible risks perfectly. I acknowledge that those consequences and possible risks exist, and I am not in denial about them.

Denial would be if I was to claim smoking poses no risk whatsoever. I never made that claim, and for you to suggest that I am in denial because I enjoy something that you don't, is nothing short of showing the arrogance of a weak mind that finds it necessary to rationalize a behaviour they don't understand.

How much do you know about schizophrenia?

Never mind, rhetorical question. The fact you'd even try to wedge in mental illness to shore up your poor argument is indicative of weak minded ignorance.

No doubt you'll be arrogant enough to prove my point and claim you're not ignorant about schizophrenia. That would be a proper demonstration of the concept of denial.

Back to square one.

I'm out.

A post replete with insults suggests you've become emotionally unhinged by my comments - an unhinging that wouldn't occur if you had real confidence in your point of view.

This post clearly demonstrates what the other side has furnished in terms of argument - accusations of ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. You'll also note that none of my posts stoop down to an argumentative deficient level.

All I'll add to this post is to say there are certain levels of denial, and not all can be attributed equally. For instance, it would be ludicrous to suggest that a person with a mental illness had the same level of denial as a smoker. We're, instead, dealing with different grades of denial, so Czarcasm's only substantial point is actually, upon analysis and probing, a non-existent one.

01-09-2014 10:06PM

The Cunning Linguist wrote: »

No they're not weak minded. So what if they smell, chewing gum and a quick spray will sort it.

Chewing gum and spray never masks it or sorts it. It just smells like cigarettes topped with gum and spray. Smoking affects your sense of smell quite badly, so your perception isn't the same as a non smokers.

con___manx1 wrote: »

A lot of doctors and nurses smoke. The reason being there job is very stressful . I wouldn't say there weak minded or stupid people.

They smoke because they're addicted. Smoking increases your bodys stress reaction, as any medic will tell you. They know they're not smoking to relax, they're smoking to sate the cravings of addiction, and the relief of that can feel like a reduction in stress.

Smokers aren't guilty of weak mindedness for starting, the worst they could be guilty of is poor judgement. Smokers keep smoking because they enjoy the rise and fall of craving and satisfaction that the addiction gives them. I'm the same with cups of tea, which might be less harmful but is basically the same thing.

The nicotine receptors in the brain aren't capable of being weak or strong minded, they're just receptors. Neuropsychopharmacology doesn't have character traits.

Are people who smoke weak-minded?

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