Are French cars still poor.

Naimless · 25-08-2014 9:23pm #1

I'm looking at a few cars at the moment, Citroen c4 grand Picasso is one, with kid number two on the way the space in this makes it look good value.
Would I be wasting my money if I bought one, AFAIK the electrics are always poor in French and Italian cars, is this still the case.

Should I look at the Nissan qashqai, but that's part Renault which to me is worse than lada.

ironclaw · 25-08-2014 9:28pm

Every car, every model has its problems. To say a particular brand is 'poor' or country of origin, would be wrong in my opinion. I've seen Ferrari's and Lambo's eclipsed in terms of reality by Nissan GTRs and a Mitsubishi Lancer (Exotic car rally context there) Likewise, for us Joe Soaps, I've seen as many mechanical problems with a VW than a Renault had in the electrical department.

Either buy a very well looked after, service history filled second hand car or go whole hog with a decent warranty from a dealer. But given the complexity of all modern cars, issues are likely especially with a poor Irish attitude to maintenance and the general poor state of motoring in the public domain.

25-08-2014 9:51pm

Brother has a Renault Megane. Endless problems. Apparently Renault have really gotten their act together on newer cars though (his is an 03). The newer Megane is supposed to give very little hassle as far as I am lead to believe (could well be wrong on that, though).

I have a Peugeot 407 (2006). It's early days yet (as I only have it about 2 months) but although it does have a few issues, none of them are electrical (a heater flap is broken, but i think that issue is very specific to the 407 and Citroen C5).

RandomAccess · 25-08-2014 9:59pm

Had a new Clio for a week, was really impressed with the quality of the car.
With any luck they will make all future cars as good as it.

Tail Docker · 25-08-2014 10:04pm

RandomAccess wrote: »

Had a new Clio for a week, was really impressed with the quality of the car.
With any luck they will make all future cars as good as it.

but with better rear visibility and fewer blind spots...amazing on fuel though.

Mycroft H · 25-08-2014 10:06pm

Had a 95 Clio. Regretted selling it ever since. Mighty little car.

Have had Xantias and a C5. Other then a gammy lift pump in the xantia, all was well. I'd buy a French car again

spygirl · 25-08-2014 10:12pm

My first car was a clio, cried when it had to go as could not fit everyone in. Still miss it even now. Had 5 renaults( everyone said I was mad) over the years and never had a problem. Loved them all.Really depends. You can be lucky or not.
Service history etc is the best way to go.

shamrock55 · 25-08-2014 10:13pm

RandomAccess wrote: »

Had a new Clio for a week, was really impressed with the quality of the car.
With any luck they will make all future cars as good as it.

That new clio is a really nice looking car in fairness, whats it like to drive

beauf · 26-08-2014 11:37am

RandomAccess wrote: »

Had a new Clio for a week, was really impressed with the quality of the car.
With any luck they will make all future cars as good as it.

I would have to be really bad if a new car of any make was bad. You'd have to own a car for a while to know if its reliable or not.

Any VW we've had always had some issue or other. I think their reliability is very much overstated.

Reliability is helped if problems if found can be sorted quickly. If the dealers seem unable to fix their own cars then it makes the problem far worse.

faral · 26-08-2014 11:48am

Naimless wrote: »

I'm looking at a few cars at the moment, Citroen c4 grand Picasso is one, with kid number two on the way the space in this makes it look good value.
Would I be wasting my money if I bought one, AFAIK the electrics are always poor in French and Italian cars, is this still the case.

Should I look at the Nissan qashqai, but that's part Renault which to me is worse than lada.

To answer ur question I wil put it this way- my entire motor life was always made in japan, the biggest problem ive encoutered was a burned bulb. im not event tempted to change my mind over that. french cars are nice but reliability is very questionable
nissan qq is very popular over here but its no more pure jap car and engine is from renault

beauf · 26-08-2014 11:55am

On one of our japs cars (14yrs old) nct it failed because the indicators orange had faded to white.

Re: the bulbs had never needed to be changed. You don't get that many other makes of cars.

SpaceTime · 26-08-2014 11:57am

Citroen and Peugeot are actually way bigger sellers on the continent (and I don't just mean in France) than they are here or in Britain. I always wonder if it's an element of British / American anti-all-things-French that penetrates the mindset here even in Ireland.

Like you hear a lot of jokes in England about French engineering, yet France actually has a lot of really impressive engineering achievements : space launch vehicles that actually work commercially, a long history of commercial aircraft and still a major chunk of Airbus, the TGV high speed rail system, various other rail systems including our own Luas tram system. You've also got a whole load of very successful telecommunications innovations that are actually used worldwide, unlike the UK ones which have largely died out. Here in Ireland for example, if you pick up your phone there's a 50% chance the local exchange was made by Alcatel and most of the eircom backbone network for the Next Generation Network core is Alcatel gear.

We bought a De Dietrich induction hob about 13 years ago and it's still working like new.

Overall, I can't see any reason why French cars would be any worse than any other cars. Renault in particular went through a couple of weird years though. However, I think they've gotten over it.

Also, in terms of cars the Citroen DS was probably one of the most innovative pieces of automotive engineering of the middle 20th century.

Speaking of just personal experience, the only cars I've ever had major reliability issues (and I'm talking about myself and extended family and friends) were Opel Astras - Major engine issues etc. Really put me off Opel.

I'm driving a Toyota at the moment and I really miss the solid feel of the interior or European cars. The Toyota interior fittings feel like what you'd install in a cheap washing machine rather than a car.

beauf · 26-08-2014 12:01pm

It has to be backed up by quality production though.

Just because french cars are unreliable, doesn't mean its the same in other french companies.

Mercedes had a bad patch too.

nc19 · 26-08-2014 12:01pm

As a person making their living in the motor trade, reliant on cars breaking down or needing repair, I say buy all the french and german muck you can cos if there were only jap cars in the country there would only be enough work for 1/10 the number of mechanics out there......

Sunnyisland · 26-08-2014 12:04pm

I live in portugal and have bought a c4 diesel automatic 08, I have done over 20 thousand km since March and there is not a bother with it, IMO great car,comfort,power,economic,
When I lived in Ireland I Wouldent have looked at a Citroen ? Maybe it's because I drive mostly on vast and better motorway system here but it has certainly opened my eyes to Citroen, next step a C5 :-)

SpaceTime · 26-08-2014 12:07pm

realies wrote: »

I live in portugal and have bought a c4 diesel automatic 08, I have done over 20 thousand km since March and there is not a bother with it, IMO great car,comfort,power,economic,
When I lived in Ireland I Wouldent have looked at a Citroen ? Maybe it's because I drive mostly on vast and better motorway system here but it has certainly opened my eyes to Citroen, next step a C5 :-)

Citroen is a fairly big player in Spain, you see absolutely loads of them and also in Belgium.

RandomAccess · 26-08-2014 12:41pm

shamrock55 wrote: »

That new clio is a really nice looking car in fairness, whats it like to drive

I enjoyed it, it was the tce 90 eco that I had.
3cyl 900cc turbo petrol. It drove nicely, ride was as good as my Golf, I found the engine good once you get familiar with its nature. Sounded good and pretty responsive though if downshifting it had a lot of inertia so I think maybe has a large flywheel. Very smooth engine, you couldn't tell it was three cyl if you disguised the engine note.
Eco mode button drastically alters performance.

Brakes were good, pedals nicely spaced unlike some older French cars I have driven.
Ergonomics were great.

Negatives,
Cupholders sucked and the flimsy handbrake left down the otherwise high quality interior feel.

I'd buy one anyways.
Looks great with the hidden rear door handles giving it 3dr coupe lines.
Had a few people comment on the car also.

When I first sat in rear view visibility was a worry and rearview mirror itself is fairly low also but I have to say I didn't think about it again after that so its no concern.

fmcg_scribe · 26-08-2014 1:43pm

As I've said before on this site, buying and running a car boils down to "the 3 R's" - residuals, reliability, and running costs. That's stuff that can be quantified and there's a lot of hard data about each of the R's. As soon as you deviate from those R's, you're into personal bias and opinions, anecdotes, and subjective information.

Over a long period, customer satisfaction data from various countries, suggests that French and Italian cars are not very reliable. However, some French and Italians makes do better than others in those surveys and sometimes newer models from those manufacturers will not have the same faults as their predecessors (just different faults, I hear some of you say).

The reliability issue affects the running costs of the affected makes. Residuals are more complex because branding and other subjective issues can have an influence on a model's residuals. In the case of many French and Italian cars, the design/image of the cars, especially small ones, can help the residuals because target buyers desire them but, as with any used cars, that can be offset by perceptions of people in the motor trade, production volumes of each model, the state of the used car market in each country, and perceived running costs and reliability.

Worst case scenario with some French and Italian cars is that you might buy a car that has poor build quality, high running, and high depreciation.

The number of French and Italian cars in certain European countries can be interesting but it can often represent national pride rather than anything else. For example, if you visit France and perhaps Belgium, you can probably expect to see mostly Renault, Citroen, and Peugeot cars on the roads there. Equally, if you visit Germany, you might expect to see mainly VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and perhaps Porsche cars there. If you visit the Czech Republic, you would expect to mainly Skoda, VW, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes cars there, and so on.

In conclusion, in these sorts of discussions, if offering an opinion based on personal experience with a make or model, that's OK. However, that should not take precedence over, say, large amounts of car ownership data available elsewhere or authoritative used car buyers guides.

SpaceTime · 26-08-2014 1:47pm

There'd be absolutely no question of national pride in French cars in Spain, yet they're very popular.

beauf · 26-08-2014 1:49pm

Maybe they are cheaper than other competing brands.

The_Honeybadger · 26-08-2014 1:52pm

I've an eight year old xsara picasso, I've owned it for three years now and not a moments bother thankfully. Not sure if I've just been lucky to date but so far so good

SpaceTime · 26-08-2014 1:54pm

Well the EU breakdown of car sales in 2013 (Q3)

VW Group 24.9%
PSA (Peugeot-Citeron) 10.9%
Renault Group 8.7%
GM Group 8%
Ford Europe 7%
BMW Group 6.5%
FIAT group 6.1%
Daimler / Mercedes : 5.6% (of which 0.5% is Smart)
Toyota Group 4.4%
Hyundai 3.5%
Nissan 3.5%
Kia 2.8%
Volvo 1.7%
Mazda, Suzuki and Honda each have 1.2%
Jaguar - Landrover Group 1.1%

All others <1%

Shows the two French groups sell a *lot* of cars, so they must be doing something right more than just notions of national pride.
In general Japanese cars are much more of a feature of the Irish and UK markets than they tend to be on the continent and there may well be a sense that people should by EU cars to support EU jobs etc to that too.

BionicRasher · 26-08-2014 2:08pm

Bought a 08 Citroen c4 grand Picasso about 3 months ago and traded in a Renault Laguna 04

Laguna was really comfortable but had its issues - passenger window stopped working, reverse sensors worked on and off back lighting on the radio stopped working and the clutch went just before I sold it but it was a great car and had 130,000 miles on the clock

Picasso is a great machine. economical and very roomy. I find it great to drive and visibility great too (we test drove a Ford Galaxy which was ok, Opel Zafera which was appaling and A Nissan Quasqui which was plasticky)
It has Citroën's Auto/manual Efficient Tronic Gearbox 6-speed (ETG6) It feels like a manual gearbox and I think it has an automatic clutch but we find it great.

We have had one issue with a pump of some sort going on the Picasso that kicked off some engine warning and car came to a halt but the dealer covered it without question and advised that the warning was a safety aspect and the pump was not a major deal. Its going for NCT next month so I suppose I will see how that works out but it is a great car all round

SpaceTime · 26-08-2014 3:11pm

Interesting the Peugeot 2008 ranked amongst the most reliable cars in the UK in 2013.

stimpson · 26-08-2014 3:32pm

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/72

Say no more.

SpaceTime · 26-08-2014 3:55pm

stimpson wrote: »

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/72

Say no more.

Vs Peugeot 3008

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/261

or

Renault Clio

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/276

Laguna :

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/285

Audi :

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/17

Toyota RAV 4

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/352

Not really seeing French cars rating THAT badly except for a few individual models.

PLUG71 · 26-08-2014 4:10pm

I have been driving Renaults for twenty years on and off.

19 TXE ,25 TXE,19 16V ,5 Turbo, Clio 172 and now a Megane R26 230.

The only car that gave me any issue out off these was the 19's with window regs playing up.

Just got to add that the Megane R26 is a real weopan, reliable and more refind than expected.

A friend of mine is into BMW, AUDI Aand is always having issues.
All of his cars are 15-20k with history!!

Anyway nowadays I think its down to how a car is serviced and cared for, not to mention a bit of luck.

fmcg_scribe · 26-08-2014 5:13pm

http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2014-uk-vehicle-ownership-satisfaction-study-voss

http://www.anusedcar.com/

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/overall-results/1206902

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/86801/best-car-manufacturers-2014

fmcg_scribe · 26-08-2014 5:36pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well the EU breakdown of car sales in 2013 (Q3)

VW Group 24.9%
PSA (Peugeot-Citeron) 10.9%
Renault Group 8.7%
GM Group 8%
Ford Europe 7%
BMW Group 6.5%
FIAT group 6.1%
Daimler / Mercedes : 5.6% (of which 0.5% is Smart)
Toyota Group 4.4%
Hyundai 3.5%
Nissan 3.5%
Kia 2.8%
Volvo 1.7%
Mazda, Suzuki and Honda each have 1.2%
Jaguar - Landrover Group 1.1%

All others <1%

Shows the two French groups sell a *lot* of cars, so they must be doing something right more than just notions of national pride.
In general Japanese cars are much more of a feature of the Irish and UK markets than they tend to be on the continent and there may well be a sense that people should by EU cars to support EU jobs etc to that too.

The sales percentages are more or less what I expected. The figures need to be set against the population size of each European country. France and Italy have roughly the same population size as the UK but Germany is the biggest country.

Apart from the UK, car sales across Europe are generally flat and that's been the case for a few years. The European car market is changing into a choice between basic brands (say, Dacia) and premium (say, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes), so the mass market car makers in between are being squeezed. Peugeot/Citroen has had to make lots of job cuts to survive. Renault/Nissan has had to withdraw Renault cars from some European countries and offer Dacia models instead. These days, the survival of Fiat/Chrysler seems to hinge on financial engineering rather than on car sales.

At the moment, the Germans are selling lots of cars to the US and China. Small, European, diesel cars are not in great demand in those countries. That coupled with the fact that young people in many countries don't aspire to own cars paints a bleak picture for car makers in many European countries.

To survive in that scenario, a car maker should be doing its utmost to to come in the top 10 in customer satisfaction and reliability surveys. Otherwise, brand loyalty diminishes.

stimpson · 26-08-2014 5:42pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Vs Peugeot 3008

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/261

or

Renault Clio

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/276

Laguna :

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/285

Audi :

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/17

Toyota RAV 4

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/352

Not really seeing French cars rating THAT badly except for a few individual models.

It was the C4 Picasso that the OP asked about. As someone said above, you need a large sample size to get an idea of how reliable a particular model is. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth much.

shamrock55 · 26-08-2014 11:15pm

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/233

well if its reliability we are after ill have a bit of this:eek:

The_Honeybadger · 27-08-2014 5:37pm

shamrock55 wrote: »

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/reliability/search/233

well if its reliability we are after ill have a bit of this:eek:

Great cars those, I had one for years that I sold on to a family member after, and it has never given either of us a problem. They are also good value on the used market.

Naimless · 27-08-2014 5:56pm

Are they thirsty

The_Honeybadger · 27-08-2014 6:35pm

Naimless wrote: »

Are they thirsty

35-40 mpg depending on how you drive and types of journey if you are asking about the lancer. Diesel version is significantly better than that but I've no experience of those

shamrock55 · 27-08-2014 7:52pm

mickeyk wrote: »

35-40 mpg depending on how you drive and types of journey if you are asking about the lancer. Diesel version is significantly better than that but I've no experience of those

The diesels are meant to be mighty apparently

forgodssake · 27-08-2014 7:58pm

hi OP
I've had a C4 since January. Absolutely love it. Was initially worried when I heard all the stories about French cars , way I see it everyone knows someone who had a certain car and had awful trouble with it. I'd highly recommend the C4 its great on diesel , very comfortable and roomy and its been reliable for me so far

CantonasCollar · 27-08-2014 8:10pm

I have the misfortune of driving a Renault Scenic, and I hate it. The best description I ever heard of it was that they spent a fortune designing it (they have cos its beyond practical for kids) but they spent about 50p on the engineering (its tinny as hell)

The_Honeybadger · 28-08-2014 1:00am

forgodssake wrote: »

hi OP
I've had a C4 since January. Absolutely love it. Was initially worried when I heard all the stories about French cars , way I see it everyone knows someone who had a certain car and had awful trouble with it. I'd highly recommend the C4 its great on diesel , very comfortable and roomy and its been reliable for me so far

That engine can be hit and miss, maintenance on time every time with the correct oil is crucial to avoid expensive turbo issues in future. Lots of threads on here about the 1.6 psa engine if you are not already aware of potential problems

derry · 29-08-2014 6:18pm

If your in the market for new car citron Nissan are excellent.
if your in the market for second hand cars more than 7 years old that's where the Nissan is way ahead .
French cars new run for 5 years often dont give many problems .
Its later the complex electronics are the nightmare in them .

I bought in Spain for laugh for €400 in April a 1997 French convertible LHD 306 with 1800cc petrol limited edition Ferrari tuning .
it ran great for the first few weeks and suited me living in Spain with the no roof . June I hit a pot hole bump in the road the car stopped working . The crash sensors said the car had crashed and switched fuel of to the engine . I didn't want to spend the telephone numbers the local Peugeot garage wanted to reset the system and fix the problem .. So for june july I drive my relible 1993 Toyota car I found a cheap local mechanic in August who reset the system but the engine management light is still on and car has minor fuel leak which costs a fortune to repair with Peugeot parts . So now I drive the 306 car with he roof down just local stuff keep the tank close to empty and will drive until it finds some other electronic problem pops up and bin it .It was cheaper than renting a car typically 300 per month and the girls like the convertible car

The only french cars I buy are the old ones for few 100 euros that way when they give me bill for 1000 euros to replace the electronic brain or similar I bin them

French cars for me are only good for first users to 5 years and last users from ~10 years onwards its the in between users who get taken to the cleaners .

If your buying a car new to last you life time of 15 years or more Japanese Asian every time for me .

All the Spanish mechanics I know wont touch 5 to 10 year old french cars with a barge pole they are electronic nightmare .

Best car the world ever had was the Puegeout 404 family had one new from 1968 to 1980 until icy night broke the block . No electronics I rebuilt the car in 1976 as kid and was first car to drive for me .
In Morocco they still got them there so next year will go there and buy one for probably ~€500 and get the Moroccans mechanics I know here from Spain to get their mates in Morocca do it up for cheap and that will probably be my main car . I hate electronics in cars and I am trained in electronics .

if you can devise a way to tear out the electronics from modern french cars then they would be OK they could last 15 plus years as well as the Asian and Japanese cars .

Derry

EunanMac · 29-08-2014 6:28pm

nc19 wrote: »

As a person making their living in the motor trade, reliant on cars breaking down or needing repair, I say buy all the french and german muck you can cos if there were only jap cars in the country there would only be enough work for 1/10 the number of mechanics out there......

Is there any truth to the rumours newer jap models are not half as well made as they used to be, with a lot of cost cutting and inferior parts creeping in ?

Also what are the newer Hyundai and Kia models like ?

galwaytt · 29-08-2014 7:18pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Is there any truth to the rumours newer jap models are not half as well made as they used to be, with a lot of cost cutting and inferior parts creeping in ?

Also what are the newer Hyundai and Kia models like ?

Because someone ran in to our old Saab, we've had a rental 141 reg Corolla. It is nothing like Jap cars of Old. Gutless. Soleless. Asthmatic. And not light on juice either. There again, it's not actually Japanese. ... Isn't it made in Turkey these days ? Which would explain a whole lot of things. ..

I'd buy a KIA or Hyundai first tbh.

Are French cars still poor.

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