Feral Gang of Youths terrorising Dublin

jank · 22-08-2014 02:52PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Similarly the hang 'em high brigade also fail to realise that things like long sentences, harsh conditions and three strike laws are implemented in the USA and achieve dick f*ck all in keeping crime down.

Not entirely true. Crime has indeed come down from the highs of years past in the US.

http://prospect.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/us_violent_crime_rate_and_incarceration_rate.jpg?itok=Pp2z-luU

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/08/ldah6rdp6ukvngoyqi1fcg.gif

padraig.od · 22-08-2014 03:00PM

Over the long term abortion on demand would be great for lowering the crime rate (if you don't consider the mass slaughter of unborn innocent children to be a crime). Legalising soft drugs would be a winner too.

king of the sheeple · 22-08-2014 03:14PM

There is a lot to be said for compulsory sterilisation of habitual criminals. It stops them from reproducing and causing the burden on the state to increase. Once they stop reproducing the problem will decrease.

It should be a condition for a habitual criminal to get social welfare or other state aid that they agree to be sterilised.

Holsten · 22-08-2014 03:24PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Course not. They actually punish criminals over there. :rolleyes:

Which is better, punishment or rehabilitation?

conorhal · 22-08-2014 03:28PM

Holsten wrote: »

Most intelligent post here.

These harsh measures do nothing to stop or prevent crime. If anything the increase crime rates.

US style is not the answer.

Doing sweet FA doesn't do much to reduce crime either.
Harsh measures absolutely do reduce crime, take zero tolerence policing in NY for example. Other measures that mitigate the causes of crime are also necessary in the long term, but to suggest tossing this group of ferral delinquents in the clink and throwing away the key would absolutele prevent them continuing THEIR crime spree which really should have come to an end long ago, given the string of crimes they have committed, from rape to kicking that Brazillian tourist unconcious, the real question is what the hell are they still doing on the street and why the hell are repeat offenders of the worst sort out on bail right now?

Kermit.de.frog · 22-08-2014 03:29PM

Holsten wrote: »

Which is better, punishment or rehabilitation?

Fear is the best way.

Ever been to an Arab country like Saudi or the UAE? You don't see any crime there.

Do you know why?

Because if you steal a loaf of bread you could lose your hand.

And you may think that is barbaric and all the rest. Fact is they are the safest countries in the world when it comes to crime. They don't put up with the crap we do here. People are afraid to commit crime.

That is how it should be. Not this fluffy liberal nonsense that has our prisons turned in to little Hiltons and people walking the streets with 100 + convictions. The result has been more crime.

FloatingVoter · 22-08-2014 03:33PM

Guards find feral youth in Dublin city centre. They'll find the fig in the figroll next.

smellmepower · 22-08-2014 03:34PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Fear is the best way.

Ever been to an Arab country like Saudi or the UAE? You don't see any crime there.

Do you know why?

Because if you steal a loaf of bread you could lose your hand.

And you may think that is barbaric and all the rest. Fact is they are the safest countries in the world when it comes to crime. They don't put up with the crap we do here. People are afraid to commit crime.

That is how it should be. Not this fluffy liberal nonsense that has our prisons turned in to little Hiltons and people walking the streets with 100 + convictions. The result has been more crime.

Jaysus.

gunny558 · 22-08-2014 03:34PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We need to stop jailing people for non violent drugs offenses

These drug laws in my view are often what catches these brain dead junkies. Garda know full well when they mugg someone but usually they get rid of phones/money etc before the Garda can get a chance to catch them and search them and then it comes down to one persons word against another and invariably they get off. If stiff drug laws let Garda search them at random and then arrest them upon finding drugs then Im all for it.

I dont care how un-PC this is, but I for one would feel a lot safer walking through Dublin at night if the all junkies were in jail.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To have people in jail for non payment of fines

In my experience, a fair few of these people dont give the judge much choice. On multiple occasions I have seen people argue and say 'im not paying the TV licence because I dont watch RTE and Im not going to pay any fine, or do any community service so FCUK you'. They make a huge song and dance out of it and pass up plenty of opportunity to pay licences/fines. Even in court it can be settled if they would just pay up but instead they'd rather be matyred and go to jail. And then people here talk about the injustice behind it and the corrupt system.

What would you have the judge do? Tell him next time someone in his court is refusing to pay a fine just leave them be?

Holsten · 22-08-2014 03:37PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Fear is the best way.

Ever been to an Arab country like Saudi or the UAE? You don't see any crime there.

Do you know why?

Because if you steal a loaf of bread you could lose your hand.

And you may think that is barbaric and all the rest. Fact is they are the safest countries in the world when it comes to crime. They don't put up with the crap we do here. People are afraid to commit crime.

That is how it should be. Not this fluffy liberal nonsense that has our prisons turned in to little Hiltons and people walking the streets with 100 + convictions. The result has been more crime.

Fear as in deterrence? Harsh punishments as a deterrence don't work. Prime example of this is the death penalty in the US, people still murder knowing they'll be out to death. Criminals never think they'll be caught so the punishment doesn't even enter their heads.

If these counties do have low crime rates I'd attribute that to their society an culture rather than harsh punishments. If this stuff actually worked I'd be for it. Pure logic, but it doesn't work.

Kermit.de.frog · 22-08-2014 03:41PM

Holsten wrote: »

Fear as in deterrence? Harsh punishments as a deterrence don't work.

Why does it work in the UAE then? That is an example of a country virtually crime free and you think that is because of the way they are? It's because you would not dare commit a crime there.

It's fear and it works. No point denying it.

I'm not advocating flogging or anything like that but we need far tougher sentences and more prison spaces in this country.

80% of the population of the UAE is foreign national incidentally. Your culture argument is out the window.

UCDVet · 22-08-2014 03:46PM

Holsten wrote: »

Fear as in deterrence? Harsh punishments as a deterrence don't work. Prime example of this is the death penalty in the US, people still murder knowing they'll be out to death. Criminals never think they'll be caught so the punishment doesn't even enter their heads.

If these counties do have low crime rates I'd attribute that to their society an culture rather than harsh punishments. If this stuff actually worked I'd be for it. Pure logic, but it doesn't work.

Nobody takes the death penalty seriously because...
1.) Hardly anyone is put to death
2.) It takes decades to do it

The 'expected' punishment for a crime is the likelihood of my getting caught * the severity of the punishment.

The odds of being put to death in the US are so low as to become completely negligible compared to the risk in committing the crimes that would lead to the death penalty.

It's exactly the same as downloading music. It's illegal. And in the US, you could face ridiculous fines, like 20k USD PER SONG. But that doesn't seem to deter anyone! Why? Because 0.000001% or less of the population faces those fines.

I promise you, if starting tomorrow, EVERY person who downloaded a song was tracked down and billed, even just 100 USD, nobody would download songs.

The death penalty *would* be a deterrent if people in the US were actually killed. If your buddy robbed an old lady and was KILLED two weeks later, that would seriously deter criminals.

I'm not for or against the death penalty, but there are a lot of implementation details that could be different that would make it work better. Same deal with the 'it costs more' argument. It only costs more, because they spent 10+ years waiting to kill the person. It could be much cheaper.

sabat · 22-08-2014 03:47PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Fear is the best way.

Ever been to an Arab country like Saudi or the UAE? You don't see any crime there.

The very existence of those countries is a criminal conspiracy. Ever wonder why Arab countries without oil don't have those laws? It's because they don't need to control the population while the ruling classes steal all the wealth to spooge on gold toilet seats and hookers. And you do see crime btw, more crime than any western country, but it's inflicted on poor migrants. Maybe in your head petty street crime is more serious than false imprisonment, slave labour, torture and even murder-in that case you could easily get a job over there and emigrate.

Holsten · 22-08-2014 03:47PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why does it work in the UAE then?

I don't know their crime rates nor their justice system. I would guess if they have low rates it's from their culture not their justice system.

Look at Japan, some of the lowest levels of crime in the world and they don't have an overly punitive system. Countries with a focus in rehabilitation have lower rates of recidivism.

Kermit.de.frog · 22-08-2014 03:54PM

Holsten wrote: »

I don't know their crime rates nor their justice system. I would guess if they have low rates it's from their culture not their justice system.

80% of the country are foreign national - mostly from the sub continent. It has nothing to do with their culture. They are afraid to commit crime.

I am not advocating those archaic methods here all I am saying is it's proof that real punishment does work.

miss no stars · 22-08-2014 03:56PM

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

Singapore also has a low unemployment rate and a minuscule welfare state. You work or you don't eat, so there is a lot less time for scumbag activities.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the solution to Ireland's anti-social problems AND the economic problems.

You work or you starve. Too busy working to commit crime. Commit a crime and you're likely to be prosecuted. Get jailed and you won't work afterwards and you'll starve. Fairly strong incentive to work and abide by the law.

22-08-2014 03:57PM

Catch Neuter and Release, all sorted

Kermit.de.frog · 22-08-2014 03:59PM

miss no stars wrote: »

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the solution to Ireland's anti-social problems AND the economic problems.

You work or you starve. Too busy working to commit crime. Commit a crime and you're likely to be prosecuted. Get jailed and you won't work afterwards and you'll starve. Fairly strong incentive to work and abide by the law.

This country is going to really struggle to get unemployment below 10%. A lot of that bracket are that little bit too cosy on welfare atm. There should be more stick and less carrot.

miss no stars · 22-08-2014 04:02PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This country is going to really struggle to get unemployment below 10%. A lot of that bracket are that little bit too cosy on welfare atm. There should be more stick and less carrot.

Yeah that's the point. Cut them off.

I actually heard two wans giving out about some guy they knew, "sure who does he think he is gettin a job? Does he think he's better than us? Lettin the bleedin family down so he is". I wish I was exaggerating

MonkieSocks · 22-08-2014 05:33PM

We should use Tranquilliser Darts on them.

Then Tag a few of them and try to understand their migratory routes and residency patterns and mating practises,

Giving birth and feeding, as well as locations where they are vulnerable to destruction.

By characterizing and identifying these hot spots,

we can help supply policy makers with the data they need to implement effective management strategies that will get rid of this species once and for all.

Hold the Cheez Whiz · 22-08-2014 08:20PM

jank wrote: »

Not entirely true. Crime has indeed come down from the highs of years past in the US.

A few problems.

First, correlation does not equal causation.

Second, street policing actually got more aggressive under Bloomberg than under Giuliani even though violent crime was already at record lows. At what point are there diminishing returns to constantly cycling people through the criminal justice system? This problem is exacerbated in the US by the privatization of state prisons, which means that there are growing financial incentives to incarcerate larger and larger numbers of people. This has had perverse effects on sentencing. I can't post links because I am a 'new user', but google 'Pennsylvania juvenile sentencing scandal' for an example.

Finally, as with school standardized testing, there is growing concern that the data is being fudged. In the case of crime, in order to meet district targets, violent crimes are being coded by officers as misdemeanors. Chicago is one example. Check the June 2014 Chicago magazine online for an investigative report.

conorhal wrote: »

Doing sweet FA doesn't do much to reduce crime either.
Harsh measures absolutely do reduce crime, take zero tolerence policing in NY for example. Other measures that mitigate the causes of crime are also necessary in the long term, but to suggest tossing this group of ferral delinquents in the clink and throwing away the key would absolutele prevent them continuing THEIR crime spree which really should have come to an end long ago, given the string of crimes they have committed, from rape to kicking that Brazillian tourist unconcious, the real question is what the hell are they still doing on the street and why the hell are repeat offenders of the worst sort out on bail right now?

Criminologists don't really agree about why crime has fallen so much in NYC (or across the US in general). Cities that didn't engage in zero tolerance tactics also saw a fall in crime (San Diego for example). I do know that the age cohort of most likely criminals is smaller than in the past, and although policing may have had some effect, gentrification and skyrocketing rents have also cleaned up large swathes of Manhattan (and increasingly, Brooklyn) by pricing troublemakers out.

hatrickpatrick · 22-08-2014 08:21PM

gunny558 wrote: »

These drug laws in my view are often what catches these brain dead junkies. Garda know full well when they mugg someone but usually they get rid of phones/money etc before the Garda can get a chance to catch them and search them and then it comes down to one persons word against another and invariably they get off. If stiff drug laws let Garda search them at random and then arrest them upon finding drugs then Im all for it.

I dont care how un-PC this is, but I for one would feel a lot safer walking through Dublin at night if the all junkies were in jail.

It's a complete fallacy though. There are plenty of amicable junkies who are too dopey to even try to hurt anyone, and there are plenty of absolute f*cking scumbags who've never touched hard drugs in their life and are just pathetic human beings with no regard for others. The latter should be targeted. The idea that the guy who stole my iPhone had been previously let off with a suspended sentence probably because the cell he should have been put in was occupied by some harmless pill popper is ridiculous, no?

In my experience, a fair few of these people dont give the judge much choice. On multiple occasions I have seen people argue and say 'im not paying the TV licence because I dont watch RTE and Im not going to pay any fine, or do any community service so FCUK you'. They make a huge song and dance out of it and pass up plenty of opportunity to pay licences/fines. Even in court it can be settled if they would just pay up but instead they'd rather be matyred and go to jail. And then people here talk about the injustice behind it and the corrupt system.

What would you have the judge do? Tell him next time someone in his court is refusing to pay a fine just leave them be?

Well they do that every single time they give a violent convict a suspended sentence. If it's one or the other, I'd prefer the non-violent ones be told they can just go, and lock up the people who violently assault others as a top priority.

To rephrase that: Lock up every violent scumbag who makes the country a dangerous place to live in, and only start locking up non-violent criminals using whatever cells we have left over after the violent ones have been locked up. It's about priorities, and it's far more important to me that people who hurt others be put in a position where they cannot continue to do so.

gunny558 · 23-08-2014 01:10AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The idea that the guy who stole my iPhone had been previously let off with a suspended sentence probably because the cell he should have been put in was occupied by some harmless pill popper is ridiculous, no?

"Harmless pill poppers" as you are calling them, more than likely wont go to jail on the first offence. If someone is in jail for pill popping Id put money on it that his record is far from squeeky clean and will had a lot of chances to get his act together.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Well they do that every single time they give a violent convict a suspended sentence.

Not really. You have one person defying the judge- almost challenging him to give him a sentence. Then you have the other person, who more than likely, has a sob story, has shown that he has since changed (got a job, stopped drugs etc) and is very apologetic about what happened and is asking for another chance to get his life back on track and is willing to do community service.

^^ BTW Im not defending junkies, Im simply saying most of them (from what I have seen) when it comes to court cases they tend to play ball with the judge.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To rephrase that: Lock up every violent scumbag who makes the country a dangerous place to live in, and only start locking up non-violent criminals using whatever cells we have left over after the violent ones have been locked up.

So in other words, write off white collar crime? Well.... at least for the next few years/decades or however long it takes to get this prison mess sorted.

Mint Aero · 23-08-2014 01:43AM

Howabout build a f*cking mega prison. Fix the courts. Throw the c*nts in. Bread and water, hard labour. Arse rape machine installed in the shower for the rapists. Daily floggings.

Rough Sleeper · 23-08-2014 01:56AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Fear is the best way.

Ever been to an Arab country like Saudi or the UAE? You don't see any crime there.

LiveIsLife wrote: »

The US isn't the only place with harsh punishments thought. Singapore has a pretty much zero tolerance policy and has some of the lowest crime rates in the world

Have a good one in your police states, guys. I think I'll stay here where I can have, like, fun and stuff.

Riddle101 · 23-08-2014 02:09AM

Just think, these youths are the future of Ireland. Future gang members, future burglars, future rapists, future thieves. Although a lot of them have already committed the last two crimes. It's just really sad tbh.

mcmoustache · 23-08-2014 02:15AM

I'm actually shocked by the torture fantasists here. I know it's AH but still.

Could we not just try to be decent people and have feral kids put down humanely?

Highflyer13 · 23-08-2014 02:17AM

2 guys broke into my apartment just before 12 tonight. Girlfriend found them in the hallway. Both known to gardai and one only out of jail 3 weeks ago ffs. These guys have no fear and the Gardai don't have the resources to keep a lid on all the scum around.

Fate Amenable To Change · 23-08-2014 02:44AM

Gardai seem to have a very harsh time of it at the moment. They know who the wasters are but can't arrest them or when they finally do its deemed not to be a serious offence. The Dutch model may be a short term solution but what happens when those kids grow up, corralling the increasingly large numbers in poor areas may make the problem worse.

generalmental · 23-08-2014 09:13AM

gunny558 wrote: »

In my experience, a fair few of these people dont give the judge much choice. On multiple occasions I have seen people argue and say 'im not paying the TV licence because I dont watch RTE and Im not going to pay any fine, or do any community service so FCUK you'. They make a huge song and dance out of it and pass up plenty of opportunity to pay licences/fines. Even in court it can be settled if they would just pay up but instead they'd rather be matyred and go to jail. And then people here talk about the injustice behind it and the corrupt system.

What would you have the judge do? Tell him next time someone in his court is refusing to pay a fine just leave them be?

So what you are saying is that people who don't pay their TV licence should just use the "I have had a bad life, drugs were forced on me from an early age, I don't know who my father is cause my mother is a HO" then they won't have to pay licence fee. Cool I must remember that one.

Feral Gang of Youths terrorising Dublin

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