Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:02PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Oh the irony :rolleyes:

OK professor.

There is one difference though... I don't write for a living, they do (and fail miserably).

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:05PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

There you go again. I've never expressed support for Hamas but you follow the standard pattern of applying meaningless label to organisations and then stifle all discussion on the subject. If you haven't the capacity or intellect to debate then jog on.

Debate? That's a laugh. Anyone who puts anything remotely pro-Israeli up gets pooh-poohed by you and you want to talk about debating?

If you support Palestine in this conflict, which has been created and led by Hamas, then you are, ergo, pro-Hamas. You can't not be. Its like claiming to be pro-German in 1939 but not pro-Nazi. And you talk about the intellect and capacity of others. You haven't added anything to this conversation.

dav3 · 21-08-2014 03:05PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Ah, The Guardian... those muppets would be better off if they went back to school to learn how to spell and use grammatical structure properly before making up their own opinions. I've seen two-year-olds who spell more correctly than the average Grauniad hack.

People who live in glass houses etc.

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:06PM

dav3 wrote: »

People who live in glass houses etc.

As I asked the other poster who remarked on my comment, do I write for a living? No.

WinnyThePoo · 21-08-2014 03:06PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Confused about what? Confused that I don't like a group that wants to destroy another country and throw the people in it to the dogs? Yeah, I'm well confused about that, I'm also confused about thinking the Shoah was a bad thing too... real confused.

:eek:

RustyNut · 21-08-2014 03:09PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Debate? That's a laugh. Anyone who puts anything remotely pro-Israeli up gets pooh-poohed by you and you want to talk about debating?

If you support Palestine in this conflict, which has been created and led by Hamas, then you are, ergo, pro-Hamas. You can't not be. Its like claiming to be pro-German in 1939 but not pro-Nazi. And you talk about the intellect and capacity of others. You haven't added anything to this conversation.

Id be anti nazi and anti zionist, not much difference tbh.

bumper234 · 21-08-2014 03:10PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Debate? That's a laugh. Anyone who puts anything remotely pro-Israeli up gets pooh-poohed by you and you want to talk about debating?

If you support Palestine in this conflict, which has been created and led by Hamas, then you are, ergo, pro-Hamas. You can't not be. Its like claiming to be pro-German in 1939 but not pro-Nazi. And you talk about the intellect and capacity of others. You haven't added anything to this conversation.

You do realize that it's entirely possible to be pro-Palestinian and still be anti Hamas right?

dav3 · 21-08-2014 03:10PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

As I asked the other poster who remarked on my comment, do I write for a living? No.

What is your connection with Israel? Family members over there? Friends?

Why would you cheer on the murderous savages of the IDF? I don't see anyone on here saying "Up Hamas!"

Tuisceanch · 21-08-2014 03:10PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Debate? That's a laugh. Anyone who puts anything remotely pro-Israeli up gets pooh-poohed by you and you want to talk about debating?

If you support Palestine in this conflict, which has been created and led by Hamas, then you are, ergo, pro-Hamas. You can't not be. Its like claiming to be pro-German in 1939 but not pro-Nazi. And you talk about the intellect and capacity of others. You haven't added anything to this conversation.

It's pointless talking to you as you have nothing substantial to say and are completely devoid of the irony of your posts. I mean if you're happy to write this drivel on the internet then you're just a waste of my time. There are substantially more interesting people to talk to and things to do. Sort yourself out.

karma_ · 21-08-2014 03:12PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

OK professor.

There is one difference though... I don't write for a living, they do (and fail miserably).

I think we can all see why.

Nodin · 21-08-2014 03:12PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Ah, The Guardian... those muppets would be better off if they went back to school to learn how to spell and use grammatical structure properly before making up their own opinions. I've seen two-year-olds who spell more correctly than the average Grauniad hack.

Way to address the issues there.

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:16PM

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

:eek:

What are you shocked about? That I don't agree with the following statements from the Hamas convenant?

On the Destruction of Israel:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Call to Jihad:

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)
I wonder what is meant by cursed, eh?

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

The only thing it doesn't include is blood libel, don't you think?

'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32)

Nice people, Hamas, eh? Once someone has read these statements from Hamas' f**king Covenant, they should be under no illusion as to exactly what Hamas is...

And I'm the one whose confused for not supporting them?

Oh, but no, of course they are anti-semitic, how could they be, they're anti-Israeli and that could never have anything to do with anti-semitism :rolleyes:.

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:18PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

It's pointless talking to you as you have nothing substantial to say and are completely devoid of the irony of your posts. I mean if you're happy to write this drivel on the internet then you're just a waste of my time. There are substantially more interesting people to talk to and things to do. Sort yourself out.

And with that kind of willingness for dialogue, its no wonder the world is in the mess it is. Tell me, do you behave like that with all people who disagree with you about anything, or is it only with regards to Palestine?

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:18PM

karma_ wrote: »

I think we can all see why.

Sorry, prof.

RustyNut · 21-08-2014 03:19PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

What are you shocked about? That I don't agree with the following statements from the Hamas convenant?

On the Destruction of Israel:
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Call to Jihad:
'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:
'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)
I wonder what is meant by cursed, eh?

Anti-Semitic Incitement:
'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

The only thing it doesn't include is blood libel, don't you think?

'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32)

Nice people, Hamas, eh? Once someone has read these statements from Hamas' f**king Covenant, they should be under no illusion as to exactly what Hamas is...

And I'm the one whose confused for not supporting them?

Oh, but no, of course they are anti-semitic, how could they be, they're anti-Israeli and that could never have anything to do with anti-semitism :rolleyes:.

You must have missed the question asking if you accept the Palestinian peoples right to resist illegal military occupation and blockade, and do you think they have a right to national self determination. ?

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:20PM

Nodin wrote: »

Way to address the issues there.

If you took the time to understand my response, rather than just trying to shoot me down because I don't agree with you, you would see that I did address the issue in so much as I said that I don't trust anything a propaganda rag like The Guardian publishes.

wes · 21-08-2014 03:22PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

And this was reported where?

What are you referring to.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I'm not talking about what Hamas may do, I'm talking about what Hamas do do.

Really?? Ahem, that is a odd thing to say, considering you did exactly that:

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

And yes, with regards to Hamas, a jihadist cult that wants to destroy an entire state and bring genocide to those people, I very much say up the IDF!

Now you use the words "wants to destroy", meaning are talking about something Hamas may do, and not something there actually doing. So yes, you are talking about what they may do.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Don't think for one second a Hamas militant would spare any one of us either if he got his hands on us. To them, we are infidels and deserve to be resolved by the sword.

Nonsense, Hamas are a nationalist organization, and there fight is against Israel.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

And genocide led by Israel... where do you suppose they should target if Hamas keep their weaponry in hospitals, schools and mosques. Maybe they should target Tel-Aviv, Beersheva and Haifa instead :rolleyes:?

Typical apologetics for genocide from IDF supporters. Its amazing that you ignore the fact that violence against Palestinians also occurs in the West Bank, and secondly your claims in regards to Hamas storing weapons have yet to have been proven by the various posters, who keep making that false claims, and when asked agiana and again to provide proof, they are completely unable to do so.

We have also seen numerous examples of deliberate attack on civilians by Israel, as well as the deliberate deconstruction of both water and power infrastructure, as well as destruction of a great deal of Gaza ability to produce food for itself.

Nodin · 21-08-2014 03:24PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

If you took the time to understand my response, rather than just trying to shoot me down because I don't agree with you, you would see that I did address the issue in so much as I said that I don't trust anything a propaganda rag like The Guardian publishes.

They are leaked documents.........

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:24PM

RustyNut wrote: »

You must have missed the question asking if you accept the Palestinian peoples right to resist illegal military occupation and blockade, and do you think they have a right to national self determination. ?

I think I answered that a few pages back if you take the time to scroll back. That said, there is a big difference between a right to resist and a right to national self determination. I don't criticise the IRA (provisional) for their desires to resist or for self determination. However, what I would have opposed is if the IRA took it upon itself to desire the destruction of the UK and the genocide of its people.

It is highly ironic though, how many people claim to care about Palestine and Hamas but left their compatriots to rot in the six counties. This pro-Palestine craze is just the latest vogue, the latest badge-wearing club. I very much doubt any of the pro-Palestinians on this board gave two hoots about Palestine last year and I very much doubt they will next year. Its just the latest sheep flock argument.

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:26PM

Nodin wrote: »

They are leaked documents.........

Reported on solely by The Grauniad. As I said, find them in The Times or The Telegraph and then I might bother to read them. I don't read the works of Stalin and I'm not going to start believing everything in The Grauniad either.

Nodin · 21-08-2014 03:26PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

.................................

It is highly ironic though, how many people claim to care about Palestine and Hamas but left their compatriots to rot in the six counties. This pro-Palestine craze is just the latest vogue, the latest badge-wearing club. I very much doubt any of the pro-Palestinians on this board gave two hoots about Palestine last year and I very much doubt they will next year. Its just the latest sheep flock argument.

I've been following this since before I was 18. If we only count from 18 on that's 26 years. When do you reckon I'll 'grow out of it'?

bumper234 · 21-08-2014 03:27PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I think I answered that a few pages back if you take the time to scroll back. That said, there is a big difference between a right to resist and a right to national self determination. I don't criticise the IRA (provisional) for their desires to resist or for self determination. However, what I would have opposed is if the IRA took it upon itself to desire the destruction of the UK and the genocide of its people.

It is highly ironic though, how many people claim to care about Palestine and Hamas but left their compatriots to rot in the six counties. This pro-Palestine craze is just the latest vogue, the latest badge-wearing club. I very much doubt any of the pro-Palestinians on this board gave two hoots about Palestine last year and I very much doubt they will next year. Its just the latest sheep flock argument.

So the IRA were the good guys because they only blew up a few innocent kids deliberately but Hamas are evil because they want the same thing that the IRA were fighting for

wes · 21-08-2014 03:28PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

There's always more to a story than meets the eye.

The story is reporting on leaked documents from the peace negotiations. Who is reporting it is neither here nor there.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Show me reports from a variety of newspapers, not just from a Communist claptrap rag like The Grauniad.

Your opinion on the paper is neither here nor there. Again, why do you refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Palestine papers? Is that you just ignore anything that shows you to be wrong.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Interesting how you've put nothing up from The Times, The Telegraph etc... or do you just ignore those because they don't agree with you?

I didn't post the link firstly, not that what people actually say matters to you that much.

Secondly, you just referred to the Guardian as "communist claptrap rag" and referred to it as "The Grauniad".

Again, I note you ignore the contents of the Palestine papers. Why is that? Do you deny there existence? On what basis do you dispute there existence? Do you have an proof in this regard to dispute them? It should be noted that no disputes the existence of the leaked documents.

The fact that you have an irrational hatred of the Guardian is neither here nor there (you have yet to show why the Guardian is untrustworthy as source, all we got was a lot of irrational hatred and bile directed at the paper), and the fact is that it isn't just the Guardian who reported on the Palestine papers. It was widely reported on, and quick google will give you several different sources reporting on it. The existence of the leaked documents is not in question.

Still the fact that you continue to refuse to acknowledge there existence is interesting. I wonder why that is? Perhaps, you don't like facts that show you to be wrong......

Seems pretty clear to me you aren't here to actually discuss anything, and are arguing against positions that don't exist. Perhaps you should try a blog.

dav3 · 21-08-2014 03:29PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

It is highly ironic though, how many people claim to care about Palestine and Hamas but left their compatriots to rot in the six counties. This pro-Palestine craze is just the latest vogue, the latest badge-wearing club. I very much doubt any of the pro-Palestinians on this board gave two hoots about Palestine last year and I very much doubt they will next year. Its just the latest sheep flock argument.

You seem quite wound up over this subject.

Tuisceanch · 21-08-2014 03:29PM

Was someone interested in discussing the rise of anti-semitism or did I misread that?

bumper234 · 21-08-2014 03:31PM

Nodin wrote: »

I've been following this since before I was 18. If we only count from 18 on that's 26 years. When do you reckon I'll 'grow out of it'?

^^^^

this

I have supported the Palestinian peoples fight for years, They are getting more exposure this time around because we live in a digital age where people have access to information at the touch of a button. People carry camera's with them at all times and reporters can report and even show live streams as it happens. The IDF are being shown up to be the murderers that they are and the world is opening it's eyes to the genocide being committed by the Zionists.

FifaPlaya · 21-08-2014 03:31PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Was someone interested in discussing the rise of anti-semitism or did I misread that?

It seems to be caused by the Likud partys policy and Netanyahus narrow thinking

RustyNut · 21-08-2014 03:33PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

I think I answered that a few pages back if you take the time to scroll back.

No, no you didnt.

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:34PM

bumper234 wrote: »

So the IRA were the good guys because they only blew up a few innocent kids deliberately but Hamas are evil because they want the same thing that the IRA were fighting for

No, I quite clearly said that the IRA did not want to wipe out the state of the UK nor carry genocide to its people.

And if people think that a group that has, as its central aim, the destruction of the state of Israel and genocide of the Jews, is not trying to do that every time it attacks Israel then they are blinkered.

Ignorant etc. · 21-08-2014 03:34PM

RustyNut wrote: »

No, no you didnt.

Yes, yes I did. I said Israel needs to leave the occupied territories. I stated that quite clearly. You chose to ignore it.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August