Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Knock Knock

Who's there

Israel

http://media.essentialbaby.com.au/news/world-news/watch-the-israeli-knock-on-the-door-tactic-5594473.html?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Outbrain_cpc

old_aussie wrote: »

Knock Knock

Who's there

Israel

http://media.essentialbaby.com.au/news/world-news/watch-the-israeli-knock-on-the-door-tactic-5594473.html?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Outbrain_cpc

There are a number of hate fueled Pro Israeli Facebook pages who revel in this sort of thing. Wouldn't you better off there? or is this infantile malicious enjoyment of violence really just a cry for help?. I'm sure there's another thread dealing with self help issues.

When I read many of the comments on Pro-Israeli Facebook pages and the comments on YouTube videos I'm reminded of the film 'Apocalypto' in that there are many people of different faith systems who seem to be possessed of a religious mania. In the book 'The Great War for Civilization' by Robert Fisk,he makes an interesting observation regarding the Taliban,namely that the Taliban were people who had grown up in the refugee camps on the Pakistani border, having been driven there by the Russian invasion, and endured an extreme education in Sharia Law and so this is all they knew and that when they subsequently gained power they just modeled the whole country on the refugee camps from whence they came. Most people just tend to see what is presented to them by whatever media sources they choose to inform themselves and are naturally abhorred by the subsequent actions and advocate for more wars as if this is the only solution. It might be better if we took the time to educate ourselves on the root causes of the conditions that leads to the rise of religious fundamentalist movements and move towards better non-violent solutions. However since most people are aware of the pernicious influence of the armaments industry which tends to dominate the debate this is no small task and also the disturbing ignorance of large swathes of the western population who are fixated on a sugar diet of news.

Here Here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHAmAULY23U#t=210

Before I explain why I am pro-Israeli in this conflict, let me first state that whilst I am of a strong left-wing mentality, I define myself as an Irish Republican and I believe that the political group that best represents me is Sinn Féin. I do understand what it means to feel your (I hold my hand up, I come from the UK originally, but I come from a very Irish background with a lot of Republican sentiment in my family) country, or part of it, is occupied. Much as the Palestinians feel they have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, Republicans, I don't need to tell anyone here, believe that the six counties should be returned to Ireland and that Ireland should be one country, united and free under one flag. I am also not blind to the oppresion brought upon by an "invader".

However, whilst many Irish Republicans see themselves at one with the Palestinians, I see certain similarities, as already explained, but also certain differences. The first difference I see is that the Provisional IRA and Hamas were two completely different types of paramilitary force. Whilst some of what the Provisional IRA did was absolutely deplorable, such as the outrages at Enniskillen and Warrington. It was a force that tried to minimise civilian casualty. It was also always a force that wished to engage in dialogue. In fact the Army Council of the Provisional IRA sought dialogue long before the British government was prepared to talk. I, and many other Republicans, argue that if the British Prime Minister had not been Margaret Thatcher at that time, then the Troubles would not have taken so long to resolve.

There are a number of differences between Hamas and the Provisional IRA. First, Hamas relishes civilian casualty. It celebrates every dead Israeli and knows that with every Palestinian death, its support increases. In order to increase its support, it plants its missiles in hospitals, schools and other civilian areas to maximise the potential for the highest number of civilian death possible. This is abhorrent. If Israel is to protect itself, it has no alternative but to attack these civilian areas to destroy Hamas armaments. It is also why, whilst the Provisional IRA enjoyed a certain level of support amongst the population of Ireland, the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA are denounced as monsters as those groups place no value on civilian life.

Secondly, Hamas has quite categorically expressed its wish to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth and to lead a genocide against the Jews. This accusation could never have been levelled at the Provisional IRA, which wanted an occupying force to leave Ireland, equal rights for Catholics in the six counties but never once spoke of wanting to destroy the British state nor of wanting to create a genocide.

Thirdly, Hamas does not want to deal in dialogue. How can it when it clearly states that its mission is to destroy Israel and that it does not recognise the Israeli state?

This is why I find myself unable to offer sympathy towards the Palestinian forces in this conflict. Yes, I think it is dreadful that ordinary Palestinians have to live in squalor. No people anywhere in the world should have to endure that. For that situation to change, the Israelis must provide more worker permits for the Palestinians, Israel must relieve the unfair trade sanctions and Israel must deal both with the Yesha settler movement, who, quite frankly, are no better than Hamas, and must deal with the problems of the Palestinian refugees. If the six counties has taught us anything, it should be that conflict breeds conflict, and that only dialogue and concessions resolve war. One great similarity between the Irish and the Palestinians is that neither give up. Israel needs to realise this, because the Palestinians will fight until the last. In this vein, Israel could make their intentions clearly known by dealing with Fatah in the West Bank. Fatah is a paramilitary force much like the Provisional IRA. It has no wish to destroy Israel, it has no wish to cause genocide and it wishes to engage in dialogue. Yes, it will take time to work with Fatah, but the resolution in the six counties did not occur overnight either. By dealing with Fatah through clear dialogue and through concessions, Israel could prove its intentions to the Palestinians in Gaza who in turn may find the resolve to overthrow Hamas.

What I do not tolerate in this part of the world, however, is condemnation of the IDF on one hand, and a condoning of Hamas on the other. Make no mistake, the IDF may be stronger than Hamas, and may have more powerful support, but it is Hamas' actions and Hamas' intentions that have led to this situation. Hamas bombards Israel daily with missiles, and only for the technology of the Iron Dome, Israelis have not faced carnage. The IDF and Israel must, and is correct to, defend itself from this threat.

Pro-Palestinians downplay these daily rocket attacks by Hamas, they downplay Hamas usage of civilian buildings to store and to fire rockets, they downplay the terror tunnels underneath Israel dug by Hamas. They talk about the high number of Palestinian casualties but dismiss the Israel casualties as "only three". Only, is not a word that should be used in terms of death. That is still three people who didn't deserve to die, three families who have to pick up the pieces of their lives.

I don't see how anyone can support Hamas in this conflict, a paramilitary group which seeks to destroy another country. I often wonder whether Pro-Palestinians feel that the world would be a better place if Israel didn't exist. Unfortunately, whether you agree with the formation of Israel in 1948 is irrelevant, much as whether Irish Republicans feel that the British government sponsored arrival of Scottish and English people into the six counties was correct. The fact is that in both lands, there are people who were born there, who have spent their whole lives there and for whom that part of the world is now home. Sinn Féin always speaks of the need to protect and help the Protestant community in the six counties to grow. This attitude is to be applauded for Belfast, Derry and other Irish cities are their homes as much as they are of the Catholic population. Do you really imagine that Hamas would follow that example with regard to Israeli Jews?

I also find it astonishing that Pro-Palestinians ignore the rise of anti-semitism in Europe during this conflict. It has been widely covered in media, not just in the UK and Ireland, that Jewish people have been attacked and that Jewish homes and buildings have been attacked since the start of Operation Protective Edge, simply because they were Jewish. There is no way this would have gone unmentioned by Pro-Palestinians if the attacks were on Muslims. Quite rightly there would have been great protest against such events. However, that is no excuse for ignoring what happens to the side you oppose.

I will end by stating that I wish Israel and Fatah would sit down and discuss how to move out of this enduring conflict. It will require concessions from both sides, much as both sides in the six counties has made concessions to the other. It cannot be a one way dialogue, it cannot be a one way concession. Israel must show its intent to deal with the settlements, Yesha and other issues such as the wall, the refugees and the trade restrictions. On the other hand, Fatah must show itself willing to deal with Hamas and other extremist groups, to support the state of Israel, along lines agreeable to both parties, and to establish law and order in Palestine. However, no peace can ever be found with Hamas. Hamas is a monster. Fatah is not. Neither is Israel. Both pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians should be exploring this angle. I would also encourage pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians not to fall into the trap that certain Republicans did for a long time. That of seeing a people and a government as one and the same.

Personally, I cannot tolerate outright condemnation of Israel the condoning of a vicious and extremist group like Hamas.

Nodin wrote: »

You're really with the wrong party if you're here going 'Up the IDF'.

As for Fatah and Israel - read this.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession

I wrote a long explanation of my view of the situation and that's all you get from it. Way to go in explaining your viewpoint. Also, whether Sinn Féin supports Palestine or Israel is irrelevant. Sinn Féin has no, or a minimal, role to play in the Middle East. It is possible to support a political party without having to adhere to every single thought that party puts out there. Its a political party, not a dogma. You are allowed to engage your brain and make up your own mind.

And yes, with regards to Hamas, a jihadist cult that wants to destroy an entire state and bring genocide to those people, I very much say up the IDF!

Nodin wrote: »

You're really with the wrong party if you're here going 'Up the IDF'.

As for Fatah and Israel - read this.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession

Ah, The Guardian... those muppets would be better off if they went back to school to learn how to spell and use grammatical structure properly before making up their own opinions. I've seen two-year-olds who spell more correctly than the average Grauniad hack.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Before I explain why I am pro-Israeli in this conflict, let me first state that whilst I am of a strong left-wing mentality, I define myself as an Irish Republican and I believe that the political group that best represents me is Sinn Féin. I do understand what it means to feel your (I hold my hand up, I come from the UK originally, but I come from a very Irish background with a lot of Republican sentiment in my family) country, or part of it, is occupied. Much as the Palestinians feel they have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, Republicans, I don't need to tell anyone here, believe that the six counties should be returned to Ireland and that Ireland should be one country, united and free under one flag. I am also not blind to the oppresion brought upon by an "invader".

Do you think that the Palestinian people have a right to resist an illegal military occupation and siege by any means necessary and their right to national self determination on their own terms?

wes wrote: »

So you are deliberately ignoring the content of the leak documents. Interesting tactic. Not going to work mind, as its clear as day your ignoring facts that you don't like.

There's always more to a story than meets the eye. Show me reports from a variety of newspapers, not just from a Communist claptrap rag like The Grauniad. Interesting how you've put nothing up from The Times, The Telegraph etc... or do you just ignore those because they don't agree with you?

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Like all the other standard talking points you mentioned they have been discussed ad nauseum if you care to read through the thread and with regard to the rise of Anti-Semitism attacks, this was mentioned quite recently and I responded with the following, encouraging the poster to expand on the subject but as typifies many of their ilk they are only interested in hurling accusations at people.

Of course, you, as a pro-Hamas supporter would be way above throwing accusations at people.

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Of course, you, as a pro-Hamas supporter would be way above throwing accusations at people.

There you go again. I've never expressed support for Hamas but you follow the standard pattern of applying meaningless label to organisations and then stifle all discussion on the subject. If you haven't the capacity or intellect to debate then jog on.