Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Tony EH wrote: »

Not quite the case.

Churchill (as first Lord of the Admiralty) and Bomber Command had wanted to institute city bombing from the first day of the war, knowing full well that that was their best way of hitting Germany, and even deliberately inflated casualty figures of German bombing to salve the public conscience for this. During the Luftwaffe attacks on Britain in 1940, Hitler expressly forbade the bombing of city centres, knowing full well that it result in an escalation of the bombing war. Something he desperately wanted to avoid, as his eyes were on Russia. The attacks on London etc, were thus confined largely to the docklands areas, as such areas came under legitimate targets at that time. However, on the night of the 24th August, London residential areas were bombed in error by a staffel (12) Heinkels (or Dorniers). This prompted Churchill (then PM) to immediately order the bombing of Berlin for the next 12 nights. Thus, further prompting Hitler to relinquish his city bombing ban and the "Blitz" started on 7th September.

In essence, it was a master stroke by Churchill as it made Hitler furious and change the Luftwaffe's bombing priority from airfields, factories and docks to London, thus allowing the RAF much needed space to regroup.

Well he had a little history before that as well

http://en.internationalism.org/wr/265_terror1920.htm

"Britain invented the technique of terror bombing of defenceless civilians that has been a feature of most wars ever since. In 1920s Iraq Britain bombed Kurds and Arabs when they rebelled against Britain's attempts to assert control over them. So, it is indeed accurate to compare G. W. Bush and Winston Churchill - but also Adolf Hitler - to each other. "

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If only I was getting paid for this No actually I am much more of a lurker on boards there's usually a great variety of debates going on but not much that I really care to contribute to. Even then when I do participate in debates boards.ie isn't really my normal choice, just the debate was grind to a halt elsewhere and I wanted an Irish perspective.

But then again why believe that when you can believe I'm part of some big Jewish conspiracy to control your minds, more fun anyway :pac:

I've come across that nomenclature before and I'm thinking it was Politics.ie. I presume it would be quite a coincidence if there were many with the same username. Just an observation.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

And how many British government officials or British army officers have we brought to justice for outrages in the North? Do you think they didn't happen? Do we not have a case in the ICC? The reality is that such pursuits were put aside by both sides in exchange for peace and I suspect that is the best course of action in pursuing a peace between Israel and Palestine too.

So... The penny finally drops for Netanyahu that he has to answer to the ICC. Pleading to US hasnt worked so the shills are brought in to mitigate public opinion....

Everyone here knows this is genocide.
Israel systematically targeted:
The power station
The water station
UN shelters and mosques.
Hospitals.
Ports and harbours.

Now 2 million women children, innocents, have no water, no food, no shelter, no medical care, rampant disease, rising temperatures and no humanitarian aid allowed through.

The world is watching.

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

When was I expected to define anything? Indeed, I have already defined what Zionism is to several blinkered apologist in this thread. But since you consistently appear incapable of reading through the thread. Here's a tips, just search through my posts and you'll find the definitions you seek. But hey I'm a nice person, here's a brief guide for you.

Zionism is similar to Nazism, in that they are both hateful filled, supremacist ideologies which worship the State above all else. Zionists worship The State of Israel, not Judaism. The State is God, hail to Greater Israel, we must have our land at all costs. But such fanatics will subvert a religion and use it for their own political/military needs. When it suits, Zionists will claim their State is a God given right. Yes they are less sophisticated, but the likes of ISIS also claim certain God given rights. Rights which they obtained through a deliberate misinterpretation of religion.

An ideology of hatred? Hatred of whom? Their neighbouring states that have been at war with them repeatedly, whom expelled their own Jewish populations to Israel for the crime of being Jewish, and many of whom cannot even recognise the mere existence of a state they helped through their actions? And do you imagine this hatred is some sort of mono-directional expression of ideology? When Jews hate their neighbours its Zionism, what is it when an Arab hates their neighbours? Does it need a title? You decry "Zionists" for worshipping the state, and what does that make of the Palestine desire to have a state of their own? Are they hate filled supremacist ideologues too? Seeking to seize land and drive out the people living on it?

Similar to how the Nazis claimed their Aryan greatness entitled them to rule over other inferior races. And how they ethnically cleansed for Lebensraum. The Zionists also ethnically cleansed for their Greater Israel. Both ideologies also regard the army and its military might, as a central tenet to their State. While most civilised democracies go to great lengths to separate the army from the State and political life. In Israel you'll not go far in political life, if you haven't covered yourself in military 'glory'. So if you've unfortunately invoked the ire of the army, your career is as good as dead.

They've done rather a poor job of ethnically cleansing the regions they occupy at present now haven't they? The total population of Palestine is what, 4 million? Growing at about 100,000 a year? They will really need to start getting on with the ethnic cleansing if they plan on keeping up.

As for the prominent position of the army, I dare say that might well be expected from a state emerging from the survivors of the concentration camps and of the crucible of their war of independence. Certainly passively and placidly accepting their fate didn't do much for the Jewish population of Poland.

The Nazi’s used fear, the threat of invasion and a need to expand as a justification for a rapid militarisation of society. Successive Zionist regimes use a similar formulaic approach, to justify the continuing militarisation of Israeli society. And fear from what? What has one of the world’s strongest armies and Nuclear powers to fear? Yes, nothing actually, because they can reduce their neighbours to dust. They merely require their military strength to enforce their supremacist dictates on the weak and vulnerable who stand in their way. Hence the reason it is vital for them to hide behind the veil of self defense.

Well you can find a flower in a pot of dirt, some of this actually makes a bit of sense, but in case you had not noticed, all the nuclear armaments in the world did not protect Israel during the two Intifadas nor does it offer a solution to the kind of low level conflict involving rocket attacks and mortar bombings - I dare say that is the preserve of a peace agreement.

Regrettably as a consequence, Israel is sadly dominated by Zionist politicians and the IDF retain a very unhealthy influence on society. The lives and the deaths of innocent Palestinians means absolutely nothing to them. Comparable to how the deaths of the Untermenschen, meant nothing to the Nazi's. Can you see the overlap? Can you understand how such warped ideologies, brought nothing but suffering to those whose paths they cross. Now that’s only a very brief example, I never was one to do homework for other people, but I hoped that helped.

Come up with the idea? No flattery won’t work. I’m afraid most people of common sense understood what Zionism was about long, long before I even existed. An idea? I think you meant to say an excuse. Yes there is an excuse that Zionists themselves use, to justify their terrorism. The Nazi’s also had no difficulty in inventing similar justifications/ excuses for their actions. Unfortunately, it’s what fanatics tend do. Mark Regev provides an excellent study in such a disturbing mindset.

Well maybe two flowers, I can actually empathise with some of this, and you can imagine the shock that I felt seeing the jubilant observers in Sderot celebrating as IDF ordnance exploded in Gaza. And heaven forfend we might be in a far happier world had Theodore Hertzl taken up farming instead of philosophizing.

But we don't live in that world, we are forced to deal with the world we do live in and this is one with an Israeli state in Palestine, and I don't believe that if we are serious about trying to find a solution to the conflict and put an end to the long back and forth which has lasted since the Balfour Declaration, that we can predicate it upon upon doing once more what caused this situation in the first place - expelling an entire population to satisfy the nationalist aspirations of one party.

(See the above and also see multiple previous posts) Tell us? Have you now become ‘us’? Was that a little slip? How many of ‘you’ are there? Anyway I digress, I have zero tolerance for willful ignorance. Nor do I generally entertain feigned ignorance. I’m sure you can understand the poisonous ideology of Nazism, then you should be quite capable of understanding the similar poison that is Zionism. Although I suspect that wouldn't suit your agenda.

If you are convinced that I am a sock puppet kindly inform an admin, otherwise you may deal with me as you would any other poster who's views you disagree with. My agenda here is debate, and I dare say anyone being paid by the Israeli state to promote their interests wouldn't accuse their army of war crimes, their government of incompetence and malice nor cast aspersions on the founding myths of the Israeli state. Then again perhaps I'm being funded by a shadowy cabal of hard-line indecisive.

Here you go with you continuing diversions again. Does it really surprise you that an oppressor, would view the resistance of a subjugated people as terrorism? I mean how else can they legitimatise their brutality against them. How else can they justify their pogroms against the innocent? Isn't the ‘noble’ IDF just defending Israel? Haven’t they a right to murder whom they wish to self defense? After all, when the status quo is threatened, the dominant power can justify and label with abandon.

Can't really disagree with anything you've said here, at-least not in principle.

Sorry you are quite wrong. Most people in my experience can easily make the distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters. I’m a pretty well-travelled individual and my Irish identity has always been very well received. So I can safely say in my experience, little Ireland seems to be held in high regard. Largely because it is seen as a little nation, that broke free from an oppressive imperial monolith. People tend to take the view, that when the weak stands up to the strong oppressor, they are generally regarded as being justified in doing so. I mean it's not rocket science really, when an aggressor terrorises and subjugates a people, it's pretty obvious who the terrorists are. Anyway no more diversion for me, wriggle and spin away, I'm done with time wasting.

That may be your experience, my experience seems to indicate a very different but a very simple narrative - if you fight you're a terrorist, but if you win you're a freedom fighter. Perhaps given your length discourse on the malignant impact of Zionism you might be able to appreciate the implications of this on the founding myth of the Israeli state.

...__... wrote: »

There is aid allowed through when Hamas is not bombing the crossings that is.

The ceasefire was broken by rocket fire from Gaza on the afternoon of August 19. Despite this violation, humanitarian efforts continued. COGAT held a conference with various international organizations to discuss the need for immediate humanitarian assistance for the civilian population.

On August 19, COGAT coordinated the entry of 256 trucks carrying 4,770 tons of goods via tje Kerem Shalom Crossing. Among the trucks that entered were:
• 134 trucks carrying 2,842 tons of food
• 4 trucks carrying 26 tons of medicine and medical supplies
• 44 trucks carrying 380 tons of humanitarian supplies
• 3 trucks carrying 19 tons of agricultural inputs.

Just curious, source?

Whilst watching this video on Zionism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA1lDow-0rk


I came across the concept of Defense Emergency regulations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_%28Emergency%29_Regulations

"The Defence (Emergency) Regulations are an expansive set of regulations first promulgated by the British authorities in mandatory Palestine in 1945.[1][2] They were incorporated into Israel's domestic legislation after the state's establishment in 1948 and, with many amendments, remain in force today."

" They were the basis of the military government imposed on Israeli Arabs from 1950 to 1966.[13] They are also a key part of the legal framework applied in the West Bank today."

Israel learned well from the masters.

...__... wrote: »

Israel has lost more than 64 people a majority of them were in the military lets just write that the same way the Palestinians do.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/In-Memoriam-The-27-IDF-soldiers-who-gave-their-lives-to-protect-Israel-368493

In Memoriam: The 64 IDF soldiers who gave their lives to protect Israel



So 100% of the 64 cited by you were military personnel during the ground assault on Gaza ordered by the Israeli government and the other victims were those cited by the poster you quoted. What is the point you are making when you say "lets just write that the same way the Palestinians do.". Isn't it the case that reports from various authorities are stating that the majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. Whatever point you were making seems to support the case against Israel of acting indiscriminately.

pedro1234 wrote: »

These are the types of people we are dealing with. Taken from "Jews News" Facebook page, regarding a story about a new "laser missile shield" Israel are creating for defense against rockets. Link: https://www.facebook.com/jewsnews/posts/771840542859217

Why waste the money if God is protecting you. If I was God I'd be a pissed off at their lack of confidence in me.Mind you if I was God I wouldn't choose anybody as being my favourite as I wouldn't be that sort of God.I just treat them all equally abominably.

Egginacup wrote: »

The 64 died attacking others. Much like the dozens of Merkava tanks were blown to atoms when Israel attacked Lebanon.
How do the children on the beaches of Gaza who were shelled or riddled to death by Israeli gunboats line up? Defending?

Oh you seem to think that I'm supporting the Israeli position. You need to read more carefully and possibly read more of the thread to gain an understanding of people's position rather than just jumping in and making yourself look foolish. I'm not here to fight with people just for the sake of it because I find it entertaining.Pay more attention before posting. Can't say I'm particularly impressed by people who fire off random posts before going to bed full of righteous indignation and miss their target completely. Makes it look like you're just show boating and lending credence to people who suggest that people that advocate the Palestinian cause are just doing so because it's 'a la mode'.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/In-Memoriam-The-27-IDF-soldiers-who-gave-their-lives-to-protect-Israel-368493

In Memoriam: The 64 IDF soldiers who gave their lives to protect Israel



So 100% of the 64 cited by you were military personnel during the ground assault on Gaza ordered by the Israeli government and the other victims were those cited by the poster you quoted. What is the point you are making when you say "lets just write that the same way the Palestinians do.". Isn't it the case that reports from various authorities are stating that the majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. Whatever point you were making seems to support the case against Israel of acting indiscriminately.

The military would not have gone in to Gaza if the missiles were not being fired. also there is no accurate source of casualties fromGaza other than what Hamas is saying. While Im not denying that there are innocent people being killed on both sides no one yet has said anything like x number of civillians and x number were hamas militants. clouds the image and makes for good propoganda on the Hamas side of things dont you agree?

...__... wrote: »

The military would not have gone in to Gaza if the missiles were not being fired. also there is no accurate source of casualties fromGaza other than what Hamas is saying. While Im not denying that there are innocent people being killed on both sides no one yet has said anything like x number of civillians and x number were hamas militants. clouds the image and makes for good propoganda on the Hamas side of things dont you agree?

I understand your grievance. You are expressing annoyance that most reporting is stating 70% civilian deaths and omitting to say 30% were militants. Not the most pernicious form of reporting I could cite and at the end of the day they're all still dead and shouldn't be if the Israeli government had some moral compass to guide them so no I don't agree with your position but you're entitled to it.

...__... wrote: »

COGAT

Ah. That would be the IDF website COGAT would it?

Gosh. Must be true so.

The people bombing/starving/targeting children on a beach and stopping humanitarian aid explain WHY they have to stop the aid getting through... With the same sorry repetitive mantra we're all used to hearing. Yeah. Right.

For shame Israel.

The world is STILL watching.