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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #4382
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    So the first thing you would do is sink all differences between Israelis by targeting them indiscriminately as settlers and criminals?


    It was good enough for South Africa.


  • #4383
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    What do you imagine would be done to stop it? Have we succeeded in stopping the exact same happening in Syria or Iraq?



    I don't think its worth the price to bring people to justice for the slaughter of 2,000, by precipitating the slaughter of 200,000. This is not a pleasant world we live in and these are the realities we have to face.

    So you agree it would suit the zionist cause to slaughter 200,000 people to achieve their goal and only international opinion and action holds them back from the "final solution"


  • #4384
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    evo2000 wrote: »
    Gaza hasnt shrunk much?

    You re splitting hairs now, man and i wont be drawn on it, i just think alot of what youre saying is baseless and i disagree with it.

    You can put a pro Israeli spin on it as much as you d like it but at the end of the day alot innocent people are being butchered by Israel and thats what matters.

    Yes it hasn't shrunk much, you are welcome to disagree with me, you are welcome to say I'm putting a pro-Israeli slant on it, but this is a factual point which has only one answer and that is since 1948 the borders of Gaza (which incidentally were earmarked under the UN partition plan as being quite a bit larger) have not changed.


  • #4385
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    bumper234 wrote: »
    So Israeli soldiers should be allowed to get away with war crimes even as Israel hunts down 90 year old German soldiers :rolleyes:


    Much commentary suggests that the Israeli government are a little nervous at the prospect that the Palestinian representatives will take the matter of war crimes to the ICC. The US is reported to have being more than slightly miffed at the behaviour of the Israelis during the recent peace talks and has intimated that they may not provide the usual backing to prevent this outcome. It is this scenario which is considered a potential negotiating chip for a future round of negotiations. However many commentators have made the point that the necessary proof required to make the accusation of war crimes stick is necessarily difficult to obtain. The recent reports that Amnesty and Human Rights Watch were denied access to Gaza and the fact that the Israeli government has made a point that the requisite military expertise is not available to assess those claims suggests that they are mindful of this fact.


  • #4386
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    Nodin wrote: »
    It was good enough for South Africa.

    Together with two overseas wars, the fall of Communism and subsequent collapse in Western support and the liberal tradition of the Cape - people tend to forget those bits...


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  • #4387
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    I'm sorry but my question was that are you going to do to stop it?

    Now as for not liking how the real world works, yeah it sucks, that is sadly the way of it.

    The allies should have just said the same to the jews during the holocaust sorry! thats just the way of it, reality an all that!

    Oh wait but they didnt because what was happening was morally wrong innocent people being killed for no reason.


  • #4388
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    RustyNut wrote: »
    So you agree it would suit the zionist cause to slaughter 200,000 people to achieve their goal and only international opinion and action holds them back from the "final solution"

    Well we are back in part to the question of Zionism, if you mean do I imagine that your average Israeli is filled with joy at the prospect of expelling the Palestinians across the Jordan, I don't think so. However there is a significant settler community within Palestine proper, which under the correct circumstances, such as a collapse of the Western stake in the state, could quite easily mobilize and precipitate the kind of ethnic cleansing we observed in Bosnia and Sudan. Again, people frequently forget, it wasn't the state forces in these conflicts which undertook the gruesome actions, but locally supposed militias manned by people on the ground - these forces don't have the discipline or the cares that regular military forces do.


  • #4389
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    evo2000 wrote: »
    The allies should have just said the same to the jews during the holocaust sorry! thats just the way of it, reality an all that!

    Oh wait but they didnt because what was happening was morally wrong innocent people being killed for no reason.

    The historical record doesn't show that before,during or after the war the allies had acted in the interests of the Jewish people. The plight of the survivors after the war was not pleasant and they were not offered safe refuge in the US or other western countries and their migration to Palestine was stymied by the British navy mindful of their government's concerns that such migration could destabilse the region. We should not attempt to paint history in a rosy light which it does not deserve.


  • #4390
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    evo2000 wrote: »
    The allies should have just said the same to the jews during the holocaust sorry! thats just the way of it, reality an all that!

    They did, and most couldn't believe what was going on until it was too late.
    Oh wait but they didnt because what was happening was morally wrong innocent people being killed for no reason.

    The allies didn't intervene when Jews were first expropriated from Germany, nor when Germany conquered Austria, the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia and Memel and did the same there. They intervened when they invaded Poland, and the Soviet Union intervene only when it too was invaded. Now we are lucky that the Axis forces didn't win the Second World War, but it was not a war on the Holocaust by any means.


  • #4391
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    IDF showing care? News to me.


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  • #4392
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    IDF showing care? News to me.

    You should try looking at some of the worlds more 'unscrupulous' military forces - I would reccomend the Janjaweed of Sudan, the Army of Republika Srpska, the Abkhazian irregulars, or these charming individuals called the Islamic State.


  • #4393
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    You should try looking at some of the worlds more 'unscrupulous' military forces - I would reccomend the Janjaweed of Sudan, the Army of Republika Srpska, the Abkhazian irregulars, or these charming individuals called the Islamic State.

    The fact that you have to compare the IDF to some of the most brutal ruthless forces on the planet to make it look some what civil says it all really.


  • #4394
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Well we are back in part to the question of Zionism, if you mean do I imagine that your average Israeli is filled with joy at the prospect of expelling the Palestinians across the Jordan, I don't think so. However there is a significant settler community within Palestine proper, which under the correct circumstances, such as a collapse of the Western stake in the state, could quite easily mobilize and precipitate the kind of ethnic cleansing we observed in Bosnia and Sudan. Again, people frequently forget, it wasn't the state forces in these conflicts which undertook the gruesome actions, but locally supposed militias manned by people on the ground - these forces don't have the discipline or the cares that regular military forces do.

    So these militant zionists and their constant threat of and willingness to use terrorism to achieve their political goals are the real problem not the people of Gaza or who they elect. Should we just appease these terrorists because of a threat of violence.

    Should we extend the same courtesy to isis, ignore it while they behead innocent men women and children because they threaten to kill even more innocent people if someone attempts to save the inocents?


  • #4395
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    evo2000 wrote: »
    The fact that you have to compare the IDF to some of the most brutal ruthless forces on the planet to make it look some what civil says it all really.

    Yes and what it says is, it could be a heck of a lot more bloody, more violent and more destructive.


  • #4396
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Yes and what it says is, it could be a heck of a lot more bloody, more violent and more destructive.

    Oh ok so ! once its not Isis level of violence its ok to butcher innocent people, come on man you cant really believe half the stuff your saying lol


  • #4397
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    RustyNut wrote: »
    So these militant zionists and their constant threat of and willingness to use terrorism to achieve their political goals are the real problem not the people of Gaza or who they elect. Should we just appease these terrorists because of a threat of violence.

    Appease I'm not so certain about, but making sure your actions don't precipitate their strengthening is a very wise course of action. It's not a particularly pleasant prospect having to sit back and watch these events, but its far better than involving yourself and making the situation worse.
    Should we extend the same courtesy to isis, ignore it while they behead innocent men women and children because they threaten to kill even more innocent people if someone attempts to save the inocents?

    Something tells me we won't have a 293 page discussion about how terrible the IS are (used to be called ISIS, now IS, I preferred ISIS myself) and how we must intervene and do something about them.


  • #4398
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    evo2000 wrote: »
    Oh ok so ! once its not Isis level of violence its ok to butcher innocent people, come on man you cant really believe half the stuff your saying lol

    What was it you were going to do about them again?


  • #4399
    paulmcshane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭paulmcshane


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Considering there is no binding legal definition of terrorism it will have to suffice - why what is your definition?

    Roughly the same as yours, but I certainly wouldn't differentiate between the actions of a non state faction or the leadership of a supposedly westernised democratic country. In doing so, you would seem to think murdering children is a terrorist act if perpetrated by Al-Qaeda but not if committed by the IDF.

    Utter nonsensical train of thought in my opinion.


  • #4400
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    What was it you were going to do about them again?

    There is a thread here buddy

    62 pages and counting

    Have a gander

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057265918&page=62


  • #4401
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    What was it you were going to do about them again?

    Do you think that Israel and the IDF should be held responsible for any war crimes that were committed, weather that is a realistic prospect or not?


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  • #4402
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    There is a thread here buddy

    62 pages and counting

    Have a gander

    Ironic that the first headline I see is 'Unorthodox Jewish school in Hackney' :eek:


  • #4403
    paulmcshane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭paulmcshane


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Appease I'm not so certain about, but making sure your actions don't precipitate their strengthening is a very wise course of action. It's not a particularly pleasant prospect having to sit back and watch these events, but its far better than involving yourself and making the situation worse.



    Something tells me we won't have a 293 page discussion about how terrible the IS are (used to be called ISIS, now IS, I preferred ISIS myself) and how we must intervene and do something about them.

    There is a seperate thread for IS discussions.


  • #4404
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    What was it you were going to do about them again?

    I was gonna fly over there after my lunch and use my super powers to stop them, what does what im going to do, have to do with anything ?


  • #4405
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Yes and what it says is, it could be a heck of a lot more bloody, more violent and more destructive.

    So your defense is that there are some other guys who are worse some where else...... Yeah, when you have to resort to using that, your argument is in deep trouble.


  • #4406
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Do you think that Israel and the IDF should be held responsible for any war crimes that were committed, weather that is a realistic prospect or not?

    Ideally yes, but a bit like our own struggle in the North, only in the context of both sides agreeing to put an end to the conflict so to pre-empt the continuation of such outrages. I think trying to do it in the midst of the conflict and under the terms of 'Israel bad!' will do nothing but spur the conflict into further depths.


  • #4407
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Do you think that Israel and the IDF should be held responsible for any war crimes that were committed, weather that is a realistic prospect or not?

    Without a doubt, whats good for the gander is good for the goose if you re gonna do wrong you should be punished accordingly be you terrorist or state.

    But as with alot of things the west seems to pick and choose who gets punished and who doesnt.


  • #4408
    Irish Praetorian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Irish Praetorian


    evo2000 wrote: »
    I was gonna fly over there after my lunch and use my super powers to stop them, what does what im going to do, have to do with anything ?

    This was an open question, what would you have done, boycotts, military action, the world is your oyster, spin me your fantasy.
    wes wrote: »
    So your defense is that there are some other guys who are worse some where else...... Yeah, when you have to resort to using that, your argument is in deep trouble.

    No my defence is that wading into this situation on the kind of misinformed grounds that we've seen here, such as boycotting the situation to an end, or magically dragging Israeli citizens into the Hague, will render the situation far FAR worse, which is something we should be trying to avoid.


  • #4409
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Ideally yes, but a bit like our own struggle in the North, only in the context of both sides agreeing to put an end to the conflict so to pre-empt the continuation of such outrages. I think trying to do it in the midst of the conflict and under the terms of 'Israel bad!' will do nothing but spur the conflict into further depths.

    And if it did occur that Israeli soldiers were put on trial you would be one of the ones agreeing when they stated

    "We were only following orders"


  • #4410
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    This was an open question, what would you have done, boycotts, military action, the world is your oyster, spin me your fantasy.



    No my defence is that wading into this situation on the kind of misinformed grounds that we've seen here, such as boycotting the situation to an end, or magically dragging Israeli citizens into the Hague, will render the situation far FAR worse, which is something we should be trying to avoid.

    You re assumption that were misinformed because we arent all singing the same pro Israeli hymn as you is well off the mark, and down right ignorant.


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  • #4411
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Irish Praetorian wrote: »
    Ideally yes, but a bit like our own struggle in the North, only in the context of both sides agreeing to put an end to the conflict so to pre-empt the continuation of such outrages. I think trying to do it in the midst of the conflict and under the terms of 'Israel bad!' will do nothing but spur the conflict into further depths.

    In the meantime what do you suggest the world should do to prevent the massacre of innocent civilians in the Gaza concentration camp?


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