Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Playboy · 19-08-2014 04:07PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

On the subject of noted truth tellers here is an interview Hillary Clinton was 'summoned' to, in order to give her humanitarian take on Gaza amongst other things. It may be that people of her ilk are not actual lizards underneath but they sure are cold blooded.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/hillary-doctrine-one

Shameful whatever way you look at it. Innocent people are just collateral damage to cause of the greater good which just happens to be American capitalism and democracy. These people have lost touch with their humanity, its frightening that they wield so much power.

WakeUp · 19-08-2014 04:33PM

Playboy wrote: »

Shameful whatever way you look at it. Innocent people are just collateral damage to cause of the greater good which just happens to be American capitalism and democracy. These people have lost touch with their humanity, its frightening that they wield so much power.

I heard a story once upon a time. some say it's no more than a tall tale a fable that grew legs all of it's own and off it went .others say it's a myth a bedtime story to scare the children that got out of hand a really cruel unfunny joke. and others say it's true .apparently Barry droner in chief Obama , Hillarys dear leader, was once awarded the Nobel peace prize . crazy I know but some say it's true. for such Nobel deeds as drone striking a wedding party among others. how noble. the peacemaker. The peace maker and his cohorts in Washington have the power and influence to make a difference and actually do something here but they choose not too. because yes we can. yes we can.

NotASheeple · 19-08-2014 04:51PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

It?

Duh, seriously? Surely you have the cop on to realise that when you make a pronouncement, you should be able to back up your claim. This is one thread where such nonsense is quickly exposed. When a poster asked you for the source of your claim, all you came back with was silly nonsense/spam. Which says a lot really.

Tuisceanch · 19-08-2014 05:09PM

Here is a YouTube video made by 'Jewish Voices for peace'. It's certainly nothing new to the vast majority of you but it's still worth posting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y58njT2oXfE

Like most videos on YouTube it attracted the attention of the usual dross.Here is one example

"FALSE. FALSE. FALSE. LEARN SOME HISTORY YOU STUPID COW. THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS 'PALESTINE'. IT WAS A NAME THE ROMANS HAD GIVEN THE LAND WHEN IT WAS CONQUERED CENTURIES AGO. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS 'INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS', THEY ARE EGYPTIAN & JORDANIAN LEFT OVERS YOU STUPID UNEDUCATED ****ING BITCH. 'PALESTINIAN' IS A COMPLETE FABRICATION TO CREATE CONFLICT WITH ISRAEL. GOOD ON YOU FOR HELPING SPREAD THE DISINFORMATION & CREATING FURTHER SUPPORT FOR JEW HATERS. SHAME ON YOU YOU IGNORANT ****WITS!!!!!"

Too much sugar in their diet?

Tuisceanch · 19-08-2014 05:31PM

Given the history of Ireland I would not expect to encounter many Irish people who were not familiar with the narratives of colonialists and their fear of an open media and this is why, I suspect, that there are not many on this thread who are so vapid as to accept the Israeli narrative. For those few who feel the need to demonise all Palestinians as Islamic fundamentalist terrorists with a thirst for pure Jewish blood you might be minded to visit this Facebook page and learn about some real life people (at the time of this post) living in Gaza who did not support Hamas.

https://www.facebook.com/GazaYBO.

Here is some background information on the above group
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jan/02/free-gaza-youth-manifesto-palestinian

Here is an animated book by an American Joe Sacco about his experience visiting the West Bank.

http://tinyurl.com/nv5gdf3

Perhaps learning about others might be the catalyst for change that is required for those who justify genocide to see that they themselves are just being manipulated by a vast and profitable war machine. The only real religion is one of Love and Compassion for all God's creatures and if you don't serve that interest then you must be serving something else!

Tuisceanch · 19-08-2014 05:46PM

Source The daily star :

One of the fascinating dimensions of the battle between Israel and Palestine is how Israeli leaders and their American apologists keep changing their propaganda message aimed at generally ignorant Western audiences.

The core, but always evolving, message that Zionists keep sending out is that Palestinians who challenge Israel are part and parcel of a larger universe of frightening figures that espouse criminal values, and represent a direct, mortal threat to Israel and all Western civilization.The latest version of this fear-mongering campaign of lies and fantasy seeks to paint Hamas and others militant Palestinian resistance groups in Gaza as integral elements in the world of vicious actors and terrorists who are fighting in the name of Islam, such as the Salafist-takfiri extremists of the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS), Al-Qaeda, or the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Most people in the United States or other Western lands who hear these messages lack the knowledge to understand that Israel’s accusations are bold and ridiculous lies. Yet these lies often strike a receptive chord among uninformed audiences that have only two images drilled into them year after year: Israel and Jews are threatened with death and extinction in the Middle East; and the region is full of rabid killers who want to kill Christians and Jews and turn the world into one big Islamic society that enslaves women and martyrs its children.

The problem with this latest twist of Zionist propaganda is that it tries to put into a single basket very different groups with totally unrelated inspirations, agendas and operating methods. It aims to tar Hamas, and also Hezbollah in Lebanon, with such extreme attributes that foreigners refuse to deal with them, and see them as part and parcel of that frightening body of ISIS and Al-Qaeda killers who claim to speak in the name of Islam and go around crucifying and cutting people’s heads off.

This strategy has actually worked for some time, as many Western powers have shunned dealing with Hamas or Hezbollah. Yet that pattern has started to break down in recent years, as foreign governments and civil society activists alike come to understand that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah essentially are locally anchored, state-based resistance groups that fight two battles at once: They seek to reverse what they say is the Israeli occupation, colonization and subjugation of their countries, and they seek to create a more efficient, less corrupt domestic governance system that responds to the needs of all its citizens. (On balance, they have done much better at fighting Israel than at generating better domestic governance).

Resisting and reversing Israeli actions forms the core of Hamas’ and Hezbollah’s strategies, therefore the Israeli spin masters try at all costs to prevent anyone abroad from seeing these Lebanese and Palestinian groups as having been born primarily to fight back against Israel’s excessive occupation and colonization. The easiest way to do this in the fact-light minds of many Western citizens and politicians is simply to associate Hamas and Hezbollah with Al-Qaeda, ISIS and the Taliban.

This strategy has started to wear thin and collapse in places because reasonable people in the world have repeatedly seen the overwhelming evidence of Israel’s violence and occasional criminal atrocities in Lebanon and Palestine. The many pictures of Lebanese and Palestinians simply protecting their lands from repeated Israeli attacks – including by attacking Israel with small rockets and as yet mostly harmless projectiles – have been coupled with the repeated Israeli destruction of thousands of Arab homes, as well as many schools, hospitals, power plants and other civilian facilities.

More and more governments and observers around the world have realized that Hamas and Hezbollah have nothing to do with Al-Qaeda or ISIS, whose agendas reflect bizarre religious fantasies rather than state-based resistance goals. We started to see this rejection of Israeli propaganda over a year ago when Americans and Europeans ignored the wild scare tactics of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and went ahead with negotiations with Iran on nuclear and sanctions issues.

The Western ability to ignore Zionism’s wild men in favor of a more rational approach to the world was also evident after the formation of the Palestinian national-unity government several months ago. The United States and the European Union among others accepted to engage with it, against the Israel desire to see the international community boycott the government.

Israel and its howlers in Washington will continue to try and lump nationalist resistance groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah with criminals such as Al-Qaeda and its offshoots, but the efficacy of such crude propaganda is steadily decreasing. This means we should be alert to the next set of exaggerations, diversions and lies that Israel and its Western hit men and women will use to prevent any rational accountability of Israeli actions.
Rami G. Khouri is published twice weekly by THE DAILY STAR. He can be followed on Twitter @RamiKhouri.

Son Of A Vidic · 19-08-2014 06:01PM

Nodin wrote: »

A Palestinian man and his Jewish bride-to-be are facing hostile protests in the Israeli town of Rishon Letzion after Israel's high court refused their application to ban demonstrations outside their wedding reception.

Mahmoud Mansour, 26, a Palestinian from Jaffa, has had to hire dozens of security guards after an anti-Arab group, Lehava, published details of his wedding reception online and called for Israelis to come and picket the wedding hall.

And here's an update, a nice picture of the happy Bride & Groom

Note the bride & Groom are flanked by security guards. But thankfully judging by the photo, it doesn't seem to have diminished their happiness. No doubt the Zionist fanatics protesting outside, must have been greatly distressed by it all.:)

Nodin · 19-08-2014 06:08PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

And here's an update, a nice picture of the happy Bride & Groom

Note the bride & Groom are flanked by security guards. But thankfully judging by the photo, it doesn't seem to have diminished their happiness. No doubt the Zionist fanatics protesting outside, must have been greatly distressed by it all.:)

Just a point to note - lets imagine this was a muslim bride that converted to Judaism, was marring into a jewish family and a gunman fired into the Wedding party for her forsaking Islam. The state would compensate the victims, as they would be adjudged victims of terrorism. However, had the worst happened at the actual wedding mentioned, and a gunman linked to an ultra Zionist group opened fire, no one would be entitled to anything. True story.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/01/israel

Son Of A Vidic · 19-08-2014 06:19PM

Just read the article you linked Nodin and the first thing that jumped into my head was. I don't even think the Nazi's were extended such blantant murder privileges, in prewar Germany.

Nodin · 19-08-2014 06:41PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Just read the article you linked Nodin and the first thing that jumped into my head was. I don't even think the Nazi's were extended such blantant murder privileges, in prewar Germany.

Apartheid South Africa, sometimes with the laws, sometimes against the laws. There's often a nod and a wink attitude to bigotry.

For instance I've been told that if you live as an Arab Israeli, you'll be fine, but if you try to live as an Israeli, problems happen, and all I've read over the years seems to bear that out.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007121902748

bumper234 · 19-08-2014 07:01PM

Gaza reminds us of Zionism’s original sin

http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-reminds-us-zionisms-original-sin/13775?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+electronicIntifadaPalestine+%28Electronic+Intifada+%3A+Palestine+News%29

That evening, as I was preparing to leave forBen Gurion airport near Tel Aviv, people around me were trying to calm me down. “Don’t aggravate them, cooperate and they will be nice,” they said. “Why go through all this unnecessary inconvenience?”

Listening to this, I was reminded of Jewish communities under the Nazi regime who believed that if they cooperated and showed they were good citizens then all would be well. But the road from cooperation to the concentration camps and then the gas chambers was a direct one.

After all, Palestinians have never possessed as much as a tank, a warship or a fighter jet, not to say a regular army.

So why the fear? Why the constant, six-decade-long campaign against Gaza? Because Palestinians in Gaza, more so than anywhere else, pose a threat to Israel’s legitimacy.

Back at Ben Gurion airport that night, I was told that if I cooperate and plead with the shift supervisor it would make the security screening go faster. When I declined this generous offer, I was told they “did not like my attitude.”

They proceeded to paste a sticker with the same bar code on my luggage and give me the same treatment Palestinians receive.

Irish Praetorian · 19-08-2014 08:20PM

Well this thread is getting a bit stale and one sided, figure I might have a punt; could use more experience arguing unpopular causes;

As much as one might oppose Israeli settlements in Palestine, Israeli occupation in those same territories and the retarding effect of these policies on creating a viable Palestinian state, I can't help but feel that much of this 'Free Gaza' sentiment that's been visible for the past month or two, is at best a suspicious endeavour, and a worst, a malicious one.

For one thing, so much of this anti-Israeli sentiment appears utterly at odds with popular opinion in Western countries since before the Iraq War and especially after it - non-intervention. The public was up in arms over the invasion over Iraq, over the invasion of Libya, the potential strikes against Assad in Syria, and even the spectre of taking an active stance against Russia over its actions in Ukraine - in all cases, in spite of pretty clear images of how malignant those regimes are or were in their actions. In-fact, we've developed a pretty strong resilience to caring about the fate of other peoples and states overseas, such as in Sudan or Sri Lanka. Yet suddenly when Israel responds rather bloodily to attacks on its territory, we see so much moral indignation, so much venom, so much naked hatred directed not just at Israel itself, but in cases, even delving into naked anti-Semitism. We even see popular calls to boycott an entire state, expel its ambassador, acts which seem utterly unprecedented and which never get employed except in the case of Israel.

I just feel like I'm missing something here that everyone else is getting but I'm not, what exactly is it that drives us to such passions over one state and one alone?

A Dub in Glasgo · 19-08-2014 08:24PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well this thread is getting a bit stale and one sided

A bit like Israel and her actions

hju6 · 19-08-2014 08:34PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well this thread is getting a bit stale and one sided, figure I might have a punt; could use more experience arguing unpopular causes;

As much as one might oppose Israeli settlements in Palestine, Israeli occupation in those same territories and the retarding effect of these policies on creating a viable Palestinian state, I can't help but feel that much of this 'Free Gaza' sentiment that's been visible for the past month or two, is at best a suspicious endeavour, and a worst, a malicious one.

For one thing, so much of this anti-Israeli sentiment appears utterly at odds with popular opinion in Western countries since before the Iraq War and especially after it - non-intervention. The public was up in arms over the invasion over Iraq, over the invasion of Libya, the potential strikes against Assad in Syria, and even the spectre of taking an active stance against Russia over its actions in Ukraine - in all cases, in spite of pretty clear images of how malignant those regimes are or were in their actions. In-fact, we've developed a pretty strong resilience to caring about the fate of other peoples and states overseas, such as in Sudan or Sri Lanka. Yet suddenly when Israel responds rather bloodily to attacks on its territory, we see so much moral indignation, so much venom, so much naked hatred directed not just at Israel itself, but in cases, even delving into naked anti-Semitism. We even see popular calls to boycott an entire state, expel its ambassador, acts which seem utterly unprecedented and which never get employed except in the case of Israel.

I just feel like I'm missing something here that everyone else is getting but I'm not, what exactly is it that drives us to such passions over one state and one alone?[/QUOTE]

One sided destruction of a prison camp tends to rise 'passions' in people with humane civilised minds

NotASheeple · 19-08-2014 08:39PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well this thread is getting a bit stale and one sided

Isn't the truth bitch. Damn all these posters on the side of Human Rights. Damn all these posters on the side of innocent civilians. Irritating you that many have exposed the hate filled fanaticism of Zionism? Yes logic and truth can be an inconvenience for some.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I can't help but feel that much of this 'Free Gaza' sentiment that's been visible for the past month or two, is at best a suspicious endeavour, and a worst, a malicious one.

Ironically suspicious logic, is ironically suspicious.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I just feel like I'm missing something here that everyone else is getting but I'm not, what exactly is it that drives us to such passions over one state and one alone?

This sounds very similar to a certain poster who used similar nonsensical comments and deflection tactics, about Syria, Iraq, ISIL, ect, ect. Anyway all that irrelevant nonsense aside, if you look at the thread title, you'll see this....

Israel - Palestine Conflict.

Tuisceanch · 19-08-2014 08:42PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well this thread is getting a bit stale and one sided, figure I might have a punt; could use more experience arguing unpopular causes;

As much as one might oppose Israeli settlements in Palestine, Israeli occupation in those same territories and the retarding effect of these policies on creating a viable Palestinian state, I can't help but feel that much of this 'Free Gaza' sentiment that's been visible for the past month or two, is at best a suspicious endeavour, and a worst, a malicious one.

For one thing, so much of this anti-Israeli sentiment appears utterly at odds with popular opinion in Western countries since before the Iraq War and especially after it - non-intervention. The public was up in arms over the invasion over Iraq, over the invasion of Libya, the potential strikes against Assad in Syria, and even the spectre of taking an active stance against Russia over its actions in Ukraine - in all cases, in spite of pretty clear images of how malignant those regimes are or were in their actions. In-fact, we've developed a pretty strong resilience to caring about the fate of other peoples and states overseas, such as in Sudan or Sri Lanka. Yet suddenly when Israel responds rather bloodily to attacks on its territory, we see so much moral indignation, so much venom, so much naked hatred directed not just at Israel itself, but in cases, even delving into naked anti-Semitism. We even see popular calls to boycott an entire state, expel its ambassador, acts which seem utterly unprecedented and which never get employed except in the case of Israel.

I just feel like I'm missing something here that everyone else is getting but I'm not, what exactly is it that drives us to such passions over one state and one alone?

It's most definitely a tragedy that the content of this thread is not sufficiently amusing for you.However,your attempts to shake things up are a bit disappointing since you've only contributed an insufferably opinionated piece which attributes your own motivations to others and also makes a number of spurious assumptions. There is potential in your final question but could you make your own position a bit clearer and make a more reasoned and logical argument as otherwise people might think you're some sort of headcase.

Nodin · 19-08-2014 08:44PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well this (............)over one state and one alone?

Evidently you don't remember the boycott Burma campaign, or the campaign to end Apartheid, the campaign to end Indonesian occupation of East Timor....

Sudan is under sanctions, Libya was under sanctions, Syria is under sanctions, Iran is under sanctions, Sri Lanka is under investigation, Russia is under sanctions. Israel will be in the Eurovision song contest.

Tuisceanch · 19-08-2014 08:49PM

[QUOTE
I just feel like I'm missing something here that everyone else is getting but I'm not, what exactly is it that drives us to such passions over one state and one alone?[/QUOTE]

Here I've just watched this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8qDpg_x49Y

Maybe you might find this interesting and you could come back and comment.

Irish Praetorian · 19-08-2014 09:00PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A bit like Israel and her actions

hju6 wrote: »

One sided destruction of a prison camp tends to rise 'passions' in people with humane civilised minds

Forgive me gentlemen, but I do not think the actions we have seen in the past month or so can compare in degrees to the level of destruction in both property and human life that we have not only ignored in the past decade, but even denigrated in scale and significance. In the years leading up to 2010, we could not muster anything more than a passing interest for the destruction of more than 300,000 ethnic Fur in Sudan, a slaughter that not only failed to insight our collective ire, our moral indignation or our action, but which we could term only as a 'humanitarian disaster', as though to attribute the deaths to human frailty rather than murderous militias. Did our sense of humanity slumber in those years? Did I perhaps miss great outcries of 'Boycott Sudanese Goods'? Was were not supposed to feel passion in the case of that slaughter?

Tuisceanch wrote: »

It's most definitely a tragedy that the content of this thread is not sufficiently amusing for you.However,your attempts to shake things up are a bit disappointing since you've have only contributed an insufferably opinionated piece which attributes your own motivations to others and also makes a number of spurious assumptions. There is potential in your final question but could you make your own position a bit clearer and make a more reasoned and logical argument as otherwise people might think you're some sort of headcase.

I dare say this thread has not lacked for insufferably opinionated pieces, I do apologize if my argument has been insufficiently cogent and I will try to make it more solid and wider in scope as the argument proceeds, but I thought it might be best to start on a reasonably small part of the debate.

NotASheeple wrote: »

Isn't the truth bitch. Damn all these posters on the side of Human Rights. Damn all these posters on the side of innocent civilians. Irritating you that many have exposed the hate filled fanaticism of Zionism? Yes logic and truth can be an inconvenience for some.

Ironically suspicious logic, is ironically suspicious.

This sounds very similar to a certain poster who used similar nonsensical comments and deflection tactics, about Syria, Iraq, ISIL, ect, ect. Anyway all that irrelevant nonsense aside, if you look at the thread title, you'll see this....

Israel - Palestine Conflict.

Forgive me sir, but have I given you the impression that I look upon the events in Gaza and the deaths of so many civilians with anything but the kind of disdain and disappointment that many others here have expressed? I think such actions can be termed most politely as unwise for the Israeli state and more forcefully as a bloody and wilfully destructive campaign of retribution to rocket attacks on Israel. Nonetheless I am uncertain that you can lay the blame for the actions in Gaza simply at the door of 'Zionism', which I always found to be a spectacularly nebulous catch-all - what is there in the idea that there should be an Israeli state which inherently demands the slaughter of others, that there is not in the idea that there should be an Irish state? If I might take the opportunity actually, could I ask you what exactly 'Zionism' is?

And just to take up your point on the thread title, you are indeed correct as to what it is called, however I've noticed that such threads tend to be more numerous, and consist of more posts, than threads detailing what we might term analagous events - let us say for example, a Nagorno-Karabakh thread

suicide_circus · 19-08-2014 09:01PM

Nodin wrote: »

Sudan is under sanctions, Libya was under sanctions, Syria is under sanctions, Iran is under sanctions, Sri Lanka is under investigation, Russia is under sanctions. Israel will be in the Eurovision song contest.

LOL, nicely put, I may have to steal that!

Nodin · 19-08-2014 09:03PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

................. Did our sense of humanity slumber in those years? Did I perhaps miss great outcries of 'Boycott Sudanese Goods'? Was were not supposed to feel passion in the case of that slaughter?

Why would you call for a boycott when they're already under sanctions? whats next, campaign to see people hung twice?

A Dub in Glasgo · 19-08-2014 09:09PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Forgive me gentlemen, but I do not think the actions we have seen in the past month or so can compare in degrees to the level of destruction in both property and human life that we have not only ignored in the past decade, but even denigrated in scale and significance. In the years leading up to 2010, we could not muster anything more than a passing interest for the destruction of more than 300,000 ethnic Fur in Sudan, a slaughter that not only failed to insight our collective ire, our moral indignation or our action, but which we could term only as a 'humanitarian disaster', as though to attribute the deaths to human frailty rather than murderous militias. Did our sense of humanity slumber in those years? Did I perhaps miss great outcries of 'Boycott Sudanese Goods'? Was were not supposed to feel passion in the case of that slaughter?

Are you indulging in a spot of whataboutery?

suicide_circus · 19-08-2014 09:12PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Are you indulging in a spot of whataboutery?

In fairness this thread is full of whataboutery

A Dub in Glasgo · 19-08-2014 09:13PM

Quite possible although not very original from the poster who is injecting 'freshness' into a 'stale' debate to make it less 'one sided'

Tuisceanch · 19-08-2014 09:17PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Forgive me sir, but have I given you the impression that I look upon the events in Gaza and the deaths of so many civilians with anything but the kind of disdain and disappointment that many others here have expressed? I think such actions can be termed most politely as unwise for the Israeli state and more forcefully as a bloody and wilfully destructive campaign of retribution to rocket attacks on Israel.

So your stance is that the motivation of the Israeli government was an act of self defense in accordance with the same narrative that was played out during 'Operation Cast Lead' and the previous operation. You do not consider the actions of the Israeli's in the west bank prior to the rocket firing as being an act of war nor do you consider that the illegal occupation itself is a perpetual act of war?

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Nonetheless I am uncertain that you can lay the blame for the actions in Gaza simply at the door of 'Zionism', which I always found to be a spectacularly nebulous catch-all - what is there in the idea that there should be an Israeli state which inherently demands the slaughter of others, that there is not in the idea that there should be an Irish state? If I might take the opportunity actually, could I ask you what exactly 'Zionism' is?

It is the actions that are more relevant,particularly to the people of Gaza rather than how you want to label the justifications for those actions. It would not be unfair to say that the responsibility for the actions of Israel lay at the door of the government who sanctioned it?

eeepaulo · 19-08-2014 09:21PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Israel's style of public relations

A quick guide to Israel's PR methods:

1. We haven't heard reports of deaths, will check into it;

2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb;

3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists;

4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields;

5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose;

6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!

7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?

Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.

Adam Johannes, Secretary, Cardiff Stop the War Coalition

I think im going to print this out and frame it,

Little CuChulainn · 19-08-2014 09:30PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I just feel like I'm missing something here that everyone else is getting but I'm not, what exactly is it that drives us to such passions over one state and one alone?

Perhaps because it speaks to our own history. Have a read of this and see how many differences you can spot between what happened during the plantations and what is happening in Palestine now.

hju6 · 19-08-2014 09:33PM

Forgive me gentlemen, but I do not think the actions we have seen in the past month or so can compare in degrees to the level of destruction in both property and human life that we have not only ignored in the past decade, but even denigrated in scale and significance. In the years leading up to 2010, we could not muster anything more than a passing interest for the destruction of more than 300,000 ethnic Fur in Sudan, a slaughter that not only failed to insight our collective ire, our moral indignation or our action, but which we could term only as a 'humanitarian disaster', as though to attribute the deaths to human frailty rather than murderous militias. Did our sense of humanity slumber in those years? Did I perhaps miss great outcries of 'Boycott Sudanese Goods'? Was were not supposed to feel passion in the case of that slaughter?

Is that some pathetic excuse for Israels actions, or is it 'monkey see, monkey do'

Irish Praetorian · 19-08-2014 09:33PM

Nodin wrote: »

Evidently you don't remember the boycott Burma campaign, or the campaign to end Apartheid, the campaign to end Indonesian occupation of East Timor....

Sudan is under sanctions, Libya was under sanctions, Syria is under sanctions, Iran is under sanctions, Sri Lanka is under investigation, Russia is under sanctions. Israel will be in the Eurovision song contest.

The campaign to end Apartheid is indeed one of the more frequently mentioned comparisons with Israel however I must call you up on some of these other examples;

Indonesia was never placed under international sanctions and continued to do a booming arms trade with the West during the entire period of its occupation, and I believe its eventual independence might owe a lot more to the downfall of Suharto than anything else - it should be noted the enormous territory of West Papua remains under Indonesian occupation without much ado.

Sri Lanka is indeed under investigation and has in the interim continued an unfettered trade in arms with the UK despite that governments condemnation of Sri Lanka actions following the defeat of the Tamil Tigers (delivered ironically by Baroness Warsi).

Sudan is a case of too little too late, 300,000 are dead and I'm not sure what exactly the implication of those sanctions is supposed to be - are they supposed to stop the Sudanese from making sure they are really dead?

Syria seems to be quite similar to the above, they were placed under sanction yet the conflict still rages and now apparently, Assad is going to become our new lynchpin in face of the rise of the IS.

Russia seems like a reasonably clear case of invading another country and paying for it, although not only have these sanctions been a product of the EU and US rather than the international community, but the most serious, namely a ban on food imports from those two groups, has been instituted by the Russians themselves.

Iran might actually the rare example of a successful sanctioning, and like Syria, they may apparently be about to become 'the good guys' in response to the rise of IS.

If I may offer a riposte, compare the treatment of these states with states engaging in similar activity to Israel - we have Turkey, which ethnically cleansed the Northern part of an EU member and now looks to be joining the EU itself, Morocco, which (and I'm not making this up) has built a 3,000 km long wall to hold onto its acquisitions in Western Sahara or Armenia, which holds a significant swath of Azerbaijan and removed the minority Azeri population from the area - none of whom inspire the ire of our populations, the attention of our media, nor the sanctions of our governments. Yet these are all conflicts with proceed along the exactly same principles as the Israeli-Palestinian one, namely illegal occupation and recurrent flare ups of violence, yet our doctrine has been one of ignorance and non-intervention - why?

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Here I've just watched this video

Maybe you might find this interesting and you could come back and comment.

I imagine he has made some fine points but it will take me some time to get through that, must add it to the 'to-do' pile

Irish Praetorian · 19-08-2014 09:37PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Quite possible although not very original from the poster who is injecting 'freshness' into a 'stale' debate to make it less 'one sided'

suicide_circus wrote: »

In fairness this thread is full of whataboutery

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Are you indulging in a spot of whataboutery?

hju6 wrote: »

Is that some pathetic excuse for Israels actions, or is it 'monkey see, monkey do'

I'm not quite sure that it is either a vice or a mistake to bring up the fact that for analogous conflicts to the one in Palestine, the policy of our governments and the views of our population have been non-intervention and non-caring. Indeed this has been expounded for quite a while in our reluctance (quite reasonably) to get involved in foreign quagmires since the Iraq War. I feel that there is a genuine problem to be attended to, if the overarching principles of our engagement with other states randomly ignored in the case of Israel and would be very interested in understanding why that is the case.

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August