Overlap with GAA

corny · 18-08-2014 12:15AM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I like playing defense. I am not that good at it as I only started. Sort of worked out that if I stand a metre behind my man so he can't get ahead of me easily and then when a ball comes his way to all go for it or else to stand off him and make sure he can't shoot / pass easily. The tackle thing is hard to get. You will rarely dispossess them I find but you sort of make them make a mess of their possession, make a crap pass.

The tackle is a nightmare for most defenders because its really not cut and dry in the rulebook. Interpretation of the referee plays a big part. I wasn't a defender but you seem to have it worked out. Pressure often results in a turnover. The Donegal lads are masters at it.:)

Buer wrote: »

I don't think it's snide. I think it's simply borne out of ignorance. Can everyone here run without breaking stride while soloing a ball and curling a shot off their instep from 30m over a target at an angle or punting a ball into someone's chest on the run? I severely doubt it.

I didn't play rugby in school. I played GAA in the Gaeltacht with lads who had only played rugby and was bemused by their lack of coordination at football. I was, in turn, brutal at the rugby fundamentals. There's beauty in both.

There is nothing more limited about the GAA football skill set than there is rugby.

Agreed.

The bit in bold? Most people, even folks who watch a bit of football, really don't appreciate how difficult it is to kick accurately off the laces into a congested area. The likes of Ciaran McKeever or Ger Brennan make it look ridiculously easy. Its not. Its akin to ROG kicking out of hand. Looks easy to the person not familiar with the game. Its not.

CatFromHue · 18-08-2014 08:47AM

Buer wrote: »

I don't think it's snide. I think it's simply borne out of ignorance. Can everyone here run without breaking stride while soloing a ball and curling a shot off their instep from 30m over a target at an angle or punting a ball into someone's chest on the run? I severely doubt it.

I didn't play rugby in school. I played GAA in the Gaeltacht with lads who had only played rugby and was bemused by their lack of coordination at football. I was, in turn, brutal at the rugby fundamentals. There's beauty in both.

There is nothing more limited about the GAA football skill set than there is rugby.

It probably is.

What you've mentioned here though is a skill, not a tactic.

Pete_Cavan · 18-08-2014 11:43AM

P_1 wrote: »

Now to be fair I have played the sport and the main tactic that was driven into me was to boot the ball from one end of the pitch to another. Now perhaps that was the coaches having a limited tactical awareness but even at the very top level of the sport you see this tactic being constantly employed.

It is fair to say rugby has more tactics but that is very naive. Rugby is more tactical because it is more structured and based on set pieces and moves so tactics are more noticeable. In Gaelic football you cant predetermine things to the same extent - in rugby, defences line up on the offside line and the different styles of press up employed by different teams can be seen (all press, a shooter, out to in, flood midfield or spread wide, etc.). In Gaelic football players are spread out all over a much bigger pitch so it is harder to know how many players will be where (both your own and the opposition) and so tactics are more basic due to the lack of certainty.

Some basic tactics deployed in Gaelic football are bringing a corner forward out to create a third midfielder and leave more space close to goal or dropping a sweeper to protect your full back line but this is more about having the right number of players in a particular area of the pitch. The phased and structured nature of rugby allows for tactics to be taken a step further where you not only put players in a general area, you can have moves where certain players are given exact movements to make. You can also influence the position of opposition players more (pick and drive to suck in players, kicks to touch to keep wingers back, etc.) which brings more certainty to a game of rugby which cant happen to the same extent in Gaelic football. The lack of an offside rule means players are free to position themselves anywhere on the pitch which means tactics are not as developed or as sophisticated as rugby but seeing it as "boot the ball from one end of the pitch to another" is very blind.

The simpler tactics does not mean Gaelic football is any less skilful and in fact it could be argued that it is even more skilful as a rugby player could get by on muscle memory from training ground moves. Gaelic football is more off the cuff and reacting to situations and tactics are less advanced because the game is always fluid while rugby is more about influencing the game to allow you to implement your system. Of course in rugby you have some players, and to a lesser extent coaches, who want an unstructured fluid game, and even in the most structured of matches you have times where it breaks down and it becomes off the cuff and all about reacting and in these cases rugby reverts to Gaelic football type tactics. Gaelic football is played on the basis of organised chaos with constant scramble defence and speculative play which is enjoyable to watch but can also be a complete mess at times. Similarly in rugby, when the structure is lost, it can lead to very exciting play with a fast pace and offloads being thrown but can also result in basic skills not being implemented. That never lasts long because there is always a set piece then to establish the structure again.

I think Gaelic football is closer to 7s rugby than the 15 man game but you wouldnt hear the same nonsense being said here about 7s.

P_1 · 18-08-2014 11:48AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is fair to say rugby has more tactics but that is very naive. Rugby is more tactical because it is more structured and based on set pieces and moves so tactics are more noticeable. In Gaelic football you cant predetermine things to the same extent - in rugby, defences line up on the offside line and the different styles of press up employed by different teams can be seen (all press, a shooter, out to in, flood midfield or spread wide, etc.). In Gaelic football players are spread out all over a much bigger pitch so it is harder to know how many players will be where (both your own and the opposition) and so tactics are more basic due to the lack of certainty.

Some basic tactics deployed in Gaelic football are bringing a corner forward out to create a third midfielder and leave more space close to goal or dropping a sweeper to protect your full back line but this is more about having the right number of players in a particular area of the pitch. The phased and structured nature of rugby allows for tactics to be taken a step further where you not only put players in a general area, you can have moves where certain players are given exact movements to make. You can also influence the position of opposition players more (pick and drive to suck in players, kicks to touch to keep wingers back, etc.) which brings more certainty to a game of rugby which cant happen to the same extent in Gaelic football. The lack of an offside rule means players are free to position themselves anywhere on the pitch which means tactics are not as developed or as sophisticated as rugby but seeing it as "boot the ball from one end of the pitch to another" is very blind.

The simpler tactics does not mean Gaelic football is any less skilful and in fact it could be argued that it is even more skilful as a rugby player could get by on muscle memory from training ground moves. Gaelic football is more off the cuff and reacting to situations and tactics are less advanced because the game is always fluid while rugby is more about influencing the game to allow you to implement your system. Of course in rugby you have some players, and to a lesser extent coaches, who want an unstructured fluid game, and even in the most structured of matches you have times where it breaks down and it becomes off the cuff and all about reacting and in these cases rugby reverts to Gaelic football type tactics. Gaelic football is played on the basis of organised chaos with constant scramble defence and speculative play which is enjoyable to watch but can also be a complete mess at times. Similarly in rugby, when the structure is lost, it can lead to very exciting play with a fast pace and offloads being thrown but can also result in basic skills not being implemented. That never lasts long because there is always a set piece then to establish the structure again.

I think Gaelic football is closer to 7s rugby than the 15 man game but you wouldnt hear the same nonsense being said here about 7s.

Very well put and like I've said earlier I need to stop letting my childhood experience of the sport clouding my opinions on it. Easier said than done though.

elefant · 18-08-2014 12:08PM

corny wrote: »

The tackle is a nightmare for most defenders because its really not cut and dry in the rulebook. Interpretation of the referee plays a big part.

Played a bit of Aussie Rules a while back for the first time, and one big difference I noticed was how clear-cut the rules were in tackling compared to Gaelic Football. It's something that could definitely benefit from some sort of an update from Croke Park.

About the 'hoofing it long' thing that's been mentioned a few times as a reason for Gaelic Football lacking tactics, this was certainly the case back in the 50s and 60s, where a great full back was a bull of a man, hands big enough to catch a bale of hay and would, without fail, drive the ball out as far as possible in the opposite direction every time he touched it without even a look up. Doing that nowadays would have you called to the line fairly quickly!

I think it's great how the two sports can compliment each other. I don't know how much grounding it has in fact, but I like the idea that the Irish rugby squad seem to have such good high-fielders in part because of a Gaelic games background. Folau certainly seemed to have benefited from his AFL experiences!

Taco Corp · 18-08-2014 01:03PM

P_1 wrote: »

Very well put and like I've said earlier I need to stop letting my childhood experience of the sport clouding my opinions on it. Easier said than done though.

I'm in the same boat. I played football until I was 16 but it was the culture of the club I played for that drove me away. I used the cover of leaving cert as an excuse. all these years later those experiences are still clouding my opinion of the sport and some who play it. but I guess that's my problem not theirs

Diabhal Beag · 18-08-2014 01:05PM

Just for those who mightn't have watched enough football to appreciate the skill and how it does compliment rugby.

Here's a great break. Tom Flynn gets the ball before he's out of his own half on a massive pitch. He has to hop, solo, hold off markers, lookup and eventually shoot all in the space of a few mere seconds. Granted the defending was a bit **** initially but you can see at the end of the clip how tactical the runs off the ball are to create that space for Flynn to score. Maybe not as exciting as Cian Healy murdering fools on his way to the line but a great example of how they go hand in hand in many ways.

As for points this is a favourite of mine, even though it's Mayo. The composure and coolness needed to slot that over from that angle in that time is ridiculous.

Reminds me a lot of a certain Francois Steyn. Any chance to bring up Francois Steyn in anything is a chance worth taking. He must have a foot like a traction engine.

P_1 · 18-08-2014 03:30PM

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

I'm in the same boat. I played football until I was 16 but it was the culture of the club I played for that drove me away. I used the cover of leaving cert as an excuse. all these years later those experiences are still clouding my opinion of the sport and some who play it. but I guess that's my problem not theirs

Quite true, you can't really knock a sport due to how its organisers go about things.

18-08-2014 03:44PM

I don't like GAA. I'd watch it the odd time but I would never dismiss it as "unskilled" or anything like that. That is incredibly narrow-minded.

As sports go, it is very easy to watch a game of it without any prior knowledge. I couldn't say the same about Rugby.

Tim Robbins · 18-08-2014 10:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't like GAA. I'd watch it the odd time but I would never dismiss it as "unskilled" or anything like that. That is incredibly narrow-minded.

As sports go, it is very easy to watch a game of it without any prior knowledge. I couldn't say the same about Rugby.

Another thing I prefer about Gaelic Football is that in Rugby so much of the attacking and decision making comes through the 10. He's the real thinking man in every attack. But, I find in GAA you are all a 10. Do you short / long pass, go down the left or the right, beat your man, dummy, fist pass, do a 1 - 2 and you make these decisions regularly no matter where you are.

I know some people will say - hey if you are decent rugby player you will be thinking all time, but there are degrees.

As for the tackle, yeah that used to reck my head. I didn't get it all. But the thing I didn't realise was that you can't actually stand still when in possession in GAA. So the role of the tackler is to kind of force the ball carrier into an awkard situation so he can't score, does a crap pass. What you will notice is if you cover your man, he will f*ck up the next pass / shot. You might occasionally get the ball, but the idea is to make him f*ck up.

The Lost Sheep · 18-08-2014 10:51PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Another thing I prefer about Gaelic Football is that in Rugby so much of the attacking and decision making comes through the 10. He's the real thinking man in every attack. But, I find in GAA you are all a 10. Do you short / long pass, go down the left or the right, beat your man, dummy, fist pass, do a 1 - 2 and you make these decisions regularly no matter where you are.

I know some people will say - hey if you are decent rugby player you will be thinking all time, but there are degrees.

As for the tackle, yeah that used to reck my head. I didn't get it all. But the thing I didn't realise was that you can't actually stand still when in possession in GAA. So the role of the tackler is to kind of force the ball carrier into an awkard situation so he can't score, does a crap pass. What you will notice is if you cover your man, he will f*ck up the next pass / shot. You might occasionally get the ball, but the idea is to make him f*ck up.

The reason why Gaelic is so different to rugby in relation to decision makers like you describe is a lot to do with the lack of an offside line in gaelic which makes things so different to rugby where players set positions will determine in the main how much they will be involved in plays all through the game.
I think when you say in gaelic you are all a 10 is unfair on rugby players in other positions.

The tackle is not defined (properly IMO) in gaelic and that means the ways to dispossess players is not great. I disagree your role is to make the other player f*** up. That's ignorant of plenty of the work defenders do.

Buer · 19-08-2014 09:32AM

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

I'm in the same boat. I played football until I was 16 but it was the culture of the club I played for that drove me away. I used the cover of leaving cert as an excuse. all these years later those experiences are still clouding my opinion of the sport and some who play it. but I guess that's my problem not theirs

I had a similar scenario which led to me being removed from the school panel as I wouldn't play for the local GAA club.

I enjoy watching GAA but they're a difficult organisation to have a lot of time for. Smalll minded politics at grass roots level is all too prevalent.

thomond2006 · 19-08-2014 09:48AM

I'm surprised the provinces haven't reached out to one or two inter-county players to get them to change codes. I suppose perhaps it's hard to justify the money spent on putting a GAA player on a development contract.

Zzippy · 19-08-2014 10:29AM

Some surprisingly ignorant contributions from people who have clearly never played, nor watched much, GAA. I wonder would they say the same to some of the rugby players we know who came from GAA backgrounds - Brian O'Driscoll, Rob Kearney, Tommy Bowe to name a few. I'm sure they would be swiftly told to cop on... "very little skill in it" indeed :rolleyes:

heroics · 19-08-2014 11:22AM

I play both Gaa and Rugby at social level (Intermediete, J1-J3). I have noticed that in rugby it is generally the backs and the wing forwards who play both. The wingers and full backs that play GAA are more comfortable under the high ball and with the kicking from the hands in my experience. For example In 2006, former Kerry and Limerick coach Mickey Ned O'Sullivan was invited to South Africa to coach the rudiments of the Gaelic football high catch to the five Super 14 clubs. It was at the behest of the Springboks' high-performance unit that O'Sullivan made the journey as they sought to expand their kicking and catching game. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/crossing-codes-of-gaas-coaches-28892977.html#sthash.wypSdnpT.dpuf

Likewise when playing GAA it is generally the lads that have played or are playing rugby that are better able to identify a gap between 2 defenders, how to fix a defender in a 2 V 1 etc.

I think a summer playing Gaa or a winter playing rugby would be of benefit to both sets of players. Another example was a GAA player who went rugby training for a season because he identified that he was loosing the ball in contact too much during GAA and wanted to improve that part of his game.

Tim Robbins · 19-08-2014 12:15PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm surprised the provinces haven't reached out to one or two inter-county players to get them to change codes. I suppose perhaps it's hard to justify the money spent on putting a GAA player on a development contract.

Graham Geraty look like he would be a brilliant Rugby player and couldn't make the Bucc's firsts when he gave Rugby a shot.

While there is definitely an overlap there are people who are suited more to one sport. The lad I knew who played inter county at GAA couldn't make his school team. I got the impression he didn't like getting creamed (judging by what he said to me when I creamed him once fairly and squarely in a youths game:) .

Tim Robbins · 19-08-2014 12:17PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The tackle is not defined (properly IMO) in gaelic and that means the ways to dispossess players is not great. I disagree your role is to make the other player f*** up. That's ignorant of plenty of the work defenders do.

Can you elaborate? one sentence you are saying the tackle isn't defined properly and in another you are saying my explanation is ignorance.

Let's hear how your explanation differs to mine then.

former legend · 19-08-2014 12:27PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Graham Geraty look like he would be a brilliant Rugby player and couldn't make the Bucc's firsts when he gave Rugby a shot.

Was he not in his thirties at that stage though? Bit late to be taking the game by storm like.

Edit: 35 according to this interview
http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/2012131246-this-sporting-life-an-interview-with-graham-geraghty/

The Lost Sheep · 19-08-2014 07:53PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Can you elaborate? one sentence you are saying the tackle isn't defined properly and in another you are saying my explanation is ignorance.

Let's hear how your explanation differs to mine then.

Where in the rules is there something defining a tackle and how to dispossess the player with the ball and I totally disagree that as a defender your role is to make a player f*** up. There is much more to defending than that. Shadowing a player into a bunch of defenders, forcing them to the touch line etc is not making a player f*** up

Richard Hillman · 19-08-2014 10:13PM

I think GAA football is very basic and has not progressed much over the years. I played a fair bit in primary school and a bit in secondary. I remember when I was playing as a kid, if the ball was on the ground and I was surrounded, I would pass it to a team mate from the ground like you would in normal football. Whenever I did the manager would shout "This isnt saccar". It takes about 2-3 seconds to pick it up within the rules and pass it with a GAA hand to ball kick. If you are surrounded by a few players it would be more logical to just kick it straight away.

I often see the County GAA players have the ball feed to them in the goal area on the ground. Instead of just kicking the ball into the net like in football, the high level players would pick it up and then try and kick from the hands. By that time the defenders are already on them and they cant score a goal. I see it so many times.

Another instance of "This isnt saccar" was when I misshandled a pass to me and the ball was rolling away. It was a near 50/50 with me and another guy to get the ball. I got there just before him but I was upright and he was trying to pick it up. When I got there I did a stepover, sent him the wrong way, took it by him and then passed the ball out on to the wing from the ground. I was absolutely chuffed with my bit of skill. I kept possession, made the opposition look a bit foolish and played a pass that stretched the opposition. My managers response: "This isnt saccar".

I also had a goal disallowed in a practice match for heading the ball into the net when I was a kid. I am fairly sure there are no rules against heading a ball. But of course "This isnt saccar".

The sport seems to be obsessed with not being "Saccar". If other countries started playing the sport at a decent level, the game would be transformed drastically and for the better. GAA football games can be very hard to watch.

I actually enjoyed playing and found it easier than football (of which I played nearly everyday) but the whole undercurrent of the sport turned me off. I have often thought about going to my local club to play. I regulary hear about them needing players but when I think back to all those days of being shouted at for trying different things, I just say nah.

Its like telling young Irish rugby players to never off-load during tackles. Just stick it up the jumper and run straight up the middle. We dont like trying new things around here. The GAA version of Brian O'Driscoll would have been hounded out of the sport. When you look back at some of the obscene skills that BOD performed in his time in Rugby, it is sad to think that GAA Football will never get a guy like that because managers just want conservative and basic GAA football. No 'Flashy' stuff.

former legend · 19-08-2014 10:23PM

This thread is gone absolutely mental. What are we even discussing any more? Sure as hell isn't rugby related.

awec · 19-08-2014 10:43PM

Yea. Locked.

For the best I think.

Overlap with GAA

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