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CONGU - Players responsibility for their handicap

  • 15-08-2014 12:46PM
    #1
    GolfQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭


    I'm trying to find out the specific rules which define the players responsibility to have a handicap that accurately reflects their playing ability.

    all I can find according to the CONGU WRT players responsibilities is

    The player must:

    [truncated]

    8.7 Enter his current Playing Handicap on all cards returned in a Qualifying Competition even though the event may not be a handicap competition. This is required for the calculation of a Competition Scratch Score.

    8.8 Ensure that all competition cards in Qualifying Competitions, whether or not complete, are returned to the organising Committee, and make such computer entries as may be required – see Decisions, Dec.(m) and Dec.(n).

    8.0 Report to his Home Club as soon as practicable all Qualifying Scores (including ‘No Returns’ and Disqualified Scores – see Appendix P) returned away from his Home Club advising the Home Club of the date of the Qualifying Competition,the venue, Standard Scratch Score and the Competition Scratch Score ... [truncated]


    From this, am I right in assuming that the players responsibilities end at providing cards from qualifying competitions, he does not have the responsibility to ask for his handicap to be lowered if he feels that his handicap is to high for his present playing ability, even if during casual play and in non-qualifying competitions he beats his handicap.

    I understand the handicap committee may have other responsibilities with regard to general play observations etc.. I'm talking about the players responsibilities.

    If you have the clause number it would be great TIA!


Comments

  • #2
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭Russman


    I'm not sure the player has such a responsibility. AFAIK its up to the GUI via the clubs to issue and administer handicaps. Rule 19 states (or used to state) something along the lines of
    "if the handicap sec feels that a player's handicap doesn't reflect his ability, he must cut him....." words to that effect anyway. But I don't think there's any onus on the player.


    As an aside, beating your handicap in casual or non qualifying games is like playing soccer without goal posts. How somebody plays with "card and pencil" is the only proper way IMO to measure it.


  • #3
    Slicemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Slicemeister


    If a player returns 2 rounds beating CSS within a certain timeframe (4) and is due an ESR, but for some reason not applied, is the onus on said player to pursue the ESR?


  • #4
    golfwallah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    Don’t forget Rule 17.2(f), which includes the following
    In Ireland, all relevant Non-Qualifying Scores must be recorded on a Player Handicap Record Sheet.

    Presumably, this includes society competitions, team events, classics, etc., but you can clarify by having a word with your Club Handicap Secretary.

    You need also to bear CONGU definitions about Qualifying Competitions in mind:
    Non Qualifying Competition
    A Non Qualifying Competition is a competition when the requirements of a Qualifying Competition are not satisfied.
    In exceptional circumstances only, or with the authority of the Union, the Committee in charge of a competition may declare it a Non Qualifying Competition before play commences and must so advise competitors before they commence play.

    Qualifying Competition
    A Qualifying Competition is any competition in which Competition Play Conditions prevail and for handicap adjustment and record purposes full handicap allowance is applied and a Competition Scratch Score is calculated, subject to restrictions and limitations contained in the UHS or imposed by a Union – see Clauses 4.1(g) and 17.2(f).
    When the conditions of a competition impose handicap limits to establish a result it will be a Qualifying Competition provided full handicap allowance is applied for handicap adjustment and record purposes.
    Note: A Competition Scratch Score is not calculated for a Nine-Hole Qualifying Competition.

    Qualifying Score
    A Qualifying Score for handicap purposes is any score, including a ‘No Return’ or a score adjusted under Clause 19, returned in a Qualifying Competition, or as a Supplementary Score.


  • #5
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    golfwallah wrote: »
    Don’t forget Rule 17.2(f), which includes the following

    Presumably, this includes society competitions, team events, classics, etc., but you can clarify by having a word with your Club Handicap Secretary.

    You need also to bear CONGU definitions about Qualifying Competitions in mind:

    I dont think the above are Non-qualifying in the Congu sense.
    I think they mean singles competitions, in a GUI/ILGU club scenario, where some special circumstance that would normally break the rules of golf are in force just for that day: less than 18 or 9 holes can be played, temporary greens, relief in the rough, for eg.


  • #6
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,584 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    I dont think the above are Non-qualifying in the Congu sense.
    I think they mean singles competitions, in a GUI/ILGU club scenario, where some special circumstance that would normally break the rules of golf are in force just for that day: less than 18 or 9 holes can be played, temporary greens, relief in the rough, for eg.

    You are obliged to hand in Society scores that beat SSS. I'll dig up the rule, think it's seperate to the one that Golfwallah has suggested.


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  • #7
    GolfQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭GolfQ


    golfwallah wrote: »
    In Ireland, all relevant Non-Qualifying Scores must be recorded on a Player Handicap Record Sheet.


    What is a "relevant Non-Qualifying" score ?

    If "qualifying" is defined, then surely non-qualifying is everything else ?

    I assume it does not mean casual golf.


  • #8
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    GolfQ wrote: »
    I'm trying to find out the specific rules which define the players responsibility to have a handicap that accurately reflects their playing ability.

    I wouldnt think there is one. Does there need to be ?
    You do have a responsibility to try your best, play honestly, and return all cards. A consequence of that is that you will have a handicap that reflects your playing ability due to the design of the hc system.


  • #9
    GolfQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭GolfQ


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    You do have a responsibility to try your best, play honestly, and return all cards.

    To try your best and play honestly is actually in the rules in the opening description of the CONGU rule book.

    "To return all cards" is not.

    In fact there is a section detailing supplementary scores whereby you can hand in cards outside of qualifying competition (no more than 10 a year) providing you prearrange the round with the club first.

    You specifically must prearrange you cannot just hand in all cards.

    So your responsibility for your handicap ends with handing in qualifying cards, but in Ireland they have put in a clause thats ambiguous unless somebody can define what a "relevant Non-Qualifying" score is?


  • #10
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    GolfQ wrote: »
    What is a "relevant Non-Qualifying" score ?
    If "qualifying" is defined, then surely non-qualifying is everything else ?

    No. It is as I answered above. Only competitions that would otherwise be qualifying but for some temporary rule in force become ineligible for handicap adjustment purposes.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congu.com%2Ffaqs%2Fhome_club.pdf&ei=PF7wU7CnHZSB7QaUqIGYBw&usg=AFQjCNHFomH0Axm94LmBXSRVULNmn4M54g&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZGU

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congu.com%2Ffaqs%2Fdecisions.pdf&ei=PF7wU7CnHZSB7QaUqIGYBw&usg=AFQjCNGbg8xAOt89pC4gXuuz1TuTx4NpmQ&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZGU



    GolfQ wrote: »
    To try your best and play honestly is actually in the rules in the opening description of the CONGU rule book.

    "To return all cards" is not.
    It is.
    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congu.com%2Ffaqs%2Fplayers_responsibility.pdf&ei=Z1_wU8SVEMbA7AaH_oCACw&usg=AFQjCNHIyxB1AusqPancnM--7deRiVzVmw&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZGU


  • #11
    golfwallah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    GolfQ wrote: »
    So your responsibility for your handicap ends with handing in qualifying cards, but in Ireland they have put in a clause thats ambiguous unless somebody can define what a "relevant Non-Qualifying" score is?

    If you re-read the CONGU definitions posted in post #4 above, you might be able to figure it out. For example, as far as I know, a "relevant Non-Qualifying" score includes society competitions, team events, classics, etc., as CONGU rules require a "Competition Scratch Score", which would not be available for such events.

    Maybe you could clarify by having a word with your Club Handicap Secretary - and let us know the result?


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  • #12
    celtic_oz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    No. It is as I answered above. Only competitions that would otherwise be qualifying but for some temporary rule in force become ineligible for handicap adjustment purposes.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congu.com%2Ffaqs%2Fhome_club.pdf&ei=PF7wU7CnHZSB7QaUqIGYBw&usg=AFQjCNHFomH0Axm94LmBXSRVULNmn4M54g&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZGU

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congu.com%2Ffaqs%2Fdecisions.pdf&ei=PF7wU7CnHZSB7QaUqIGYBw&usg=AFQjCNGbg8xAOt89pC4gXuuz1TuTx4NpmQ&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZGU

    What I can see from this rule is that competitions should be deemed as qualifying even in the face a of a temporary rule etc.

    Therefore the competition is redefined as qualifying, normal rules apply and you must had in your card, home or away.

    This does not define what a "relevant non-qualifying" competition is.
    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    It is.
    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.congu.com%2Ffaqs%2Fplayers_responsibility.pdf&ei=Z1_wU8SVEMbA7AaH_oCACw&usg=AFQjCNHIyxB1AusqPancnM--7deRiVzVmw&bvm=bv.73231344,d.ZGU

    Every statement in that link includes the word "qualifying", no where does it say you must hand in "all cards", this would include casual play which it obviously does not mean.


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